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Transduality in WoD

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But Ultima, what about these:

Also, is there anything else that would make WoD 1-A without the statement of transcending Dimensions.

Because I have a quote saying that the Dream Quest of Unknown Kaddath is to be used as a Supplicant (Basically, use the contents of the supplicant/book in one's campaign), Whitewolf has produced a few personal supplicants.

There is also a supplicant called "World of Cthulhu" which states that all of H.P Lovecraft's works are to be used as a supplicants.
 
Post the full screenshot instead of a cropped scan focusing on a specific quote, extra context always helps in cases like these. Anyways:

1) This is not at all evidence that there are Infinite Higher and Lower Realms, you seem to be attempting to make a connection between two completely unrelated scans, and like I said, even if the Myth of the One is indeed true in-universe, it could simply mean that the Oneness was divided into the setting of the verse as it is known, which can itself be considered Infinite even disregarding Higher-Dimensional blah blah. As it currently stands, these scans are not good evidence for High 1-B Tellurian whatsoever.

2) Context please, even then, n-dimensional simply means an arbitrary and unspecified number of Dimensions, it is too vague to warrant anything significant.

3) Again, context, and being Dimensionless does not automatically warrant 1-A, it simply means the lack of physical properties and constrants such as defined size and form, and there are Tier 2 characters who nicely fit this bill. To qualify for 1-A, this space would need to be completely transcendent over all forms of dimensional space-time, regardless of complexity.

4) Again, too vague to qualify for anything significant enough to warrant an upgrade.

5) same
 
1.) Why isn't it evidence, you've actually gone over everything else in this part except why it's not evidence, you said I'm connecting two unrelated screenshots but don't explain why they're unrelated.

2. There isn't any, it just says N, because World of Darkness gives a lot of creedence to the GM's, obvious N is a standin variable for whatever the GM to add any other variable in.

3. Again, there isn't any, it's a spell, the rest of it is explaining what rolls you need to get and how you get into the space, I'm guessing the game mechanics are of no concern? So, there's no more context.

4. I'm bringing up things that would be interesting, "too vague" is just feeling more and more like a shoehorn.

5. Why? It's literally the start of the sentence, this is the start of the context, you can see that, it literally starts off the definition.
 
1) Can you show solid, concrete evidence that they are related? You are the one making the claim, the Burden of Proof is on you. Solid evidence is what is needed for such massive upgrades, not speculation based on vague associations, what you are trying to make here is an immense stretch, trying to take an in-universe theory and bond it with a completely different screenshot talking ahout somethint else entirely.

3) Okay then, it isn't 1-A anyway, for reasons I already explained

4) It's not a shoehorn, Ultradimensions are way too vague to warrant anything significant enough for an upgrade.

5) Same thing here, Demons existing in distant physical and mental dimensions is also too vague for an upgrade.
 
1. Well, we know from the first screenshot that they're talking about Realms, and how the Mage can travel them, and as they go on further, each realm is transcendant, and to go back, is to descend.

We then know that in the other screenshot that there's an Infinite amount of these realms, as stated by itself.

We know from both of these that the focus is Realms. And with this, we know they're talking about th same thing.

4. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA5mBcHX6NY

5. This was for something else, as someone wa ssaying that the Demons aren't 8-D/11-D beings.
 
Btw, is creating Dimensions worth anything, or must I bring something saying:

"VSwiki, these guys are 1-A/Outerversal, spheal with it"
 
1) They are not, this sca is saying that once, all Spirits and Living Beings were the same and lived in a single Realm, which was eventually split into two planes of existence separated by the Gauntlet, while this sca is describing an unspecified number of higher realms of existence.

Even then, the first Scan itself says that "The One" is just single one out of many different Myths and Theories explaining the origins of the Gauntlet.

Btw, is creating the concept of Dimensions worth anything

Citation needed.
 
1. Actually, this sca says much more than that, if you read the middle paragrapgh:

"Folks have a lot of theories about the gauntlet. In some myths, all worlds were once a single realm, perhaps apart of a cosmic One that shattered into Infinity."

That's the first theory, the one you're referencing is the second theory.

2. The Creation of Dimensions is shown here:

https://imgur.com/7mc93Lc

They also created Time itself here:

https://imgur.com/6JiMAXR
 
I legit forgot I even had them until I was going through my old scans from Demon, the Fallen and found them.

And in my defense, I have 400+ scans for World of Darkness.
 
" And in my defense, I have 400+ scans for World of Darkness. "


ok so if you didn't check all of them what is saying there isn't some insane hax for God you forgot about
Thinkingface
 
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Udlmaster said:
T╠Âh╠Âa╠Ât╠Â'╠Âs╠ ╠Âf╠Âo╠Âr╠ ╠Âw╠Âh╠Âe╠Ân╠ ╠ÂI╠ ╠Ân╠Âe╠Âe╠Âd╠ ╠ÂT╠Âh╠Âe╠ ╠ÂO╠Ân╠Âe╠ ╠ÂG╠Âi╠Âv╠Âe╠Âr╠ ╠Ât╠Âo╠ ╠Âw╠Âi╠Ân╠ ╠Âa╠ ╠Âf╠Âi╠Âg╠Âh╠Ât╠Â
Click to expand...
would that really help when I make God vs Azathoth
 
1) That still doesn't change anything, your evidence for High 1-B Tellurian comes from vague associations and sticking together two unrelated scans to try and make sense of them as a single, interrelated, statement, you need far more concrete proofs for 1-A / High 1-B than that, because so far I fail to see any consistent logic in these scans.

2. This is more explicit than the previous pieces of evidence, but I don't think it qualifies for 1-A either.

Let's suppose that a God (which I will call Udl for convenience's sake) exists in a void of nothingness, and decides to create a Universe. It is a standard Universe, comprised of the three basic Spatial Dimensions we know - Length, Width and Height - upon which an additional Temporal Dimension is layered.

Udl just created "Dimension", the basic physical parameter upon which the Universe is built, yet he visibly isn't anything more than Low 2-C due to creating what is the basic model of a Space-Time Continuum from nothingness.

This is an extremely basic feat which should be analyzed under case-by-case basis, like so many other things, as it can be as low as Universal (see any Low 2-C Creator God in fiction) or as great as High Hyperversal (The Beams from The Dark Tower, Aka and Lorkha, etc).
 
For the record, and first I must say I am unavailable for evaluating this, instead of random quotes taken out of context it'd be best if you could create a blog detailing and analyzing the evidence for a 1-A upgrade and afterwards you create the CRT.

This is due to how important is context when dealing with this sort of stuff. Because its not like showing a bunch of scans with someone busting the moon and asking for a moon level upgrade.
 
1. I explained how they're not unrelated, as their premise is still the same, their focus is still the same. They're not unrelated, found elsewhere? Yes, but not unrelated.

2. Well, not a Void of Nothingness, for you see, the Void in WoD is less than Nothing, it's a total negation of Existence, that's why the very concept of existence could not exist.

Also, this actually goes against the Outerversal page, as if one is stated to be transcendant of the Concept of Dimensions, and as I've shown, Dimension was a created concept of Reality, law, or what have you.

The Statement on the Outerversal page just says it needs to transcend the concept of dimensions, the amount of Dimensions doesn't matter.

God is stated to be utterly transcendant of the verse, and thus would include these concepts of Space and Time, which would exist in the Supernal at least and the Epiphamies at most.
 
"The Statement on the Outerversal page just says it needs to transcend the concept of dimensions, the amount of Dimensions doesn't matter."

This is half true.

The amount of evidence required to prove dimensional trascendence varies greatly from a High 1-B setting to a finite dimensional setting.
 
what you said doesn't matter if you transcend the concept in that case lol (with concrete proof of it)

the concept automatically governs every single possible dimension, including the infinite.
 
Well, the requirements are outlined here:

"An outerverse can also be in line with the concept of "Beyond Reality" in which its nature is not only different, but also conceptually superior to the concept of dimension as some formless, transcendental realm, that is, even an infinite-dimensional hyperverse would be nonexistent in comparison to them, regardless if the setting of a verse is infinite-dimensional or not. What this means is, if a setting is for example, 14-dimensional, but a world outside of it is described as being conceptually superior to all forms of space-time, the realm qualifies as an outerverse."
 
That is not concrete proof, your logic seems to boil down to:

>There was once a Cosmic One that was divided into Infinite Realms

>The Higher and Lower Planes of existence must be the same thing as those realms for some reason, so there are Infinite Higher Planes of Existence, thus making the Tellurian High 1-B

This does not at all meet our standards for the higher bounds of the Tiering System, and the connection between both statements seems to be mostly guesswork at best, and like I said, the setting can still be considered Infinite even when disregarding Higher-Dimensional shenanigans, so this adds even more reasons for this to not be accepted.

Furthermore, you have to prove that this Myth is indeed true in-universe, since the very Scan say that it is but one out of many theories explaining the origins of the setting.

Well, not a Void of Nothingness, for you see, the Void in WoD is less than Nothing, it's a total negation of Existence, that's why the very concept of existence could not exist.

Yes, but going by the Scans, this was before the Angels spilled part of their Spirits into the utter negation of the Void, and formed the "superficial" Nothingness, the simple lack of substance in which the Universe was created.

Even then, the Scan is explicitly referring to the material Universe, and describing Space and Dimension as physical constrants and properties, it does not at all state that the very concepts of Dimension and Space-Time at all levels were created by the Angels, which goes back to my explanation above.

Even then, a Concept doesn't necessarily have to govern what they connote at all possible levels, in most cases they simply influence and encompass reality up to the defined scale of the setting itself, and lacking isn't the same thing as transcending, so 1-A would apply only to God from what I am seeing.

Though, this is becoming very tiring to argue at this point, so I would like the input of other Staff Members into this.
 
However, it doesn't mean planes, they're both focusing on Realms, you're the one who's trying to disconnect them by using improper terminology.

I've explained why they're connected, and that's due to their terminology, as you're the one who's saying they're not talking about the same thing, you'll have to prove that yourself.

It's obviously not guess work, they're both literally talking about the same things, Realms.

>Furthermore, you have to prove that this Myth is indeed true in-universe, since the very Scan say that it is but one out of many theories explaining the origins of the setting.

Well, you won't, as everything in a tabletop game is theory, as it's always up to the Storyteller, that's what the books always say: "This book is not a ruleset, but recommendations"

And by the fact it's a theory, meaning someone theorized it, it exists within the Vulgate.

>Even then, the Scan is explicitly referring to the material Universe, and describing Space and Dimension as physical constrants and properties, it does not at all state that the very concepts of Dimension and Space-Time at all levels were created by the Angels, which goes back to my explanation above.

Well, they are? Are they not? Dimensions are physical properties. And it saying Universe doesn't matter, it's an irrelevent point, because during that time, all things were possible, infinite possibility was true, and the Tellurian is the purest example of this.

>Even then, a Concept doesn't necessarily have to govern what they connote at all possible levels, in most cases they simply influence and encompass reality up to the defined scale of the setting itself, and lacking isn't the same thing as transcending, so 1-A would apply only to God from what I am seeing.

I know lacking isn't the same as having, however, God is stated to be so transcendant over the verse that they couldn't created the verse, as they'd destroy the very concept of Existence due to how powerful they are.

There are many occasions that The One Giver is stated to be transcendant over the verse.

Why does this matter? Well, because all concepts are contained with the Epiphanies, and thus, being transcendant over the Tellurian would mean they're transcendant over the Epiphanies, which would contain this Concept as a Platonic concept, and that's a low ball, a High ball would be it being apart of the Nigh-Infinite Platonic truths of the Supernal.
 
I think that Ultima seems to make sense. Perhaps we should close this thread before he turns exhausted.
 
I am not suggesting we should do that at all, I am just saying that input from other Staff Members would be nice here.
 
I somewhat agree with Ant, I think we could move the thread once we've gotten the verdict on Transduality, since we're no longer talking about the OP, we're on another topic.
 
Well, here are some staff members that you can ask for input, if you wish:

Azathoth

Promestein

SomebodyData

Darkanine

Reppuzan

Dragonmasterxyz

Celestial Pegasus

Monarch Laciel

Assaltwaffle

Saikou The Lewd King

Antoniofer

Gemmysaur

DarkDragonMedeus

AKM Sama

Dargoo Faust

MrKingOfNegativity

Wokistan
 
@Ultima

Would you be willing to start a new thread with a summary in the beginning?
 
I think Udl would be more fit for that, considering he knows the verse better than I do and actually has Scans he can use to back up his claims.
 
I mean, like, I know Ultima agreed that Transduality is a thing.

I'm not sure if this changes any ratings now, since apparently Transduality is a thing.
 
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