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Tower of God Discussion General

So we should add another key to Baam called: Hidden Floor Arc (Post Training) and the AP for this version of Baam will look like this: Island level in Base (Gotta make Data Zahard bleed a bit, which can casually tanked a lightning storm with a little bleeding. Should be comparable to Data Maschenny Zahard Redan), At least Island level with Horned Form + Thorn Ignition (Much stronger than before, can severely damage Data Zahard)
 
Seems alright, though the grammar is a bit weird. You could say that he was capable of harming Data Zahard for the justification, and leave it at that.

Also, are we making a profile for Zahard?
 
Sorry for my grammar, but you can still justify the Baam AP using the phrases I used, except that without the odd grammar, in addition you can justify Baam 6-C in my place?

The profile for Zahard will take time to be created, because I have to read the previous chapters to describe his techniques.
 
Thank you.

Well, if you can get Zahard's profile on his own, then that's okay. But to help you, I'll put all the chapters where he uses the fighting techniques, Lecalius forms and Shinsoo techniques from Data Zahard:

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-285/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=366

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-286/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=367

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-292/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=373

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-301/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=382

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-302/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=383

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-303/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=384

https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-2-ep-304/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=385
 
I would disagree, Urek himself would be comparable to Arie Hon who is the strongest Family Head, who himself stated that he fought Zahard 10 times and lost each time. It would also seem unlikely the Floor Guardians would make a contract with someone who wasn't as powerful as them, and he should likely be comparable to Enryu who killed a Guardian. Also, just because his' Continental it doesn't mean hes extremely more powerful than Urek. Just significant enough to warrant a Tier jump along with the other reasons.
 
I don't believe it's significant enough to warrant a tier jump. It's a far safer bet to wait for feats. And killing a continent sized entity = / = continent level AP. It's why killing building sized entities no longer equals having building sized AP. It's a logical fallacy.

Also, we have no clue how strong Arie Hon actually is. The irregulars are the strongest in the Tower, and should be superior to the ten family heads, so trying to scale him to a featless character who's inferior to a character we already have feats for doesn't make too much sense.
 
I never once said the Guardians are Continent sized, what? Kirby is rated 4-A for fighting Magalor who could control a dimension which contained multiple solar systems. Here Enryu killed the Guardian who is able to control the Floor and it's Shinsoo at whim, AND Enryu devastated the entire landscape. That's a supporting feat. We DO indeed have at least a clue as to how strong Arie Hon is. Don't you remember he gave Urek a special test - for him to endure 10 of his attacks. But instead Urek fought evenly against him, so it would show that Urek and he are equal. If that's the case and this guy has lost to Zahard ten times...then clearly Zahard is superior to Urek.
 
Which is part of why Zahard is ranked higher than Urek, which I stated earlier.

Ah, that's my mistake, I misunderstood what the feat was. But that would be a supporting feat for Enryu, not Zahard. Enryu is ranked number 2, and should be superior to Zahard. We know that Zahard is superior to Urek, but not how he compares to Enryu, which is why I believe At least High 6-B to be the best bet. As we don't know how far above Urek Zahard is.
 
I seriously disagree again. Didn't you read my post fully? Zahard 10 times beaten a man who could fight evenly against Urek. And Urek himself is At least High 6-B because even when multiplying his 10% feat to 100% he was still significantly restricted by Hell Joe nullifying Shinsoo. Zahard doesn't have to be that many times stronger than Urek to be 6-A. The difference between baseline and the cap of High 6-B is only 7.6x. And Urek is around 3x more powerful than baseline remember? It doesn't make sense for Zahard to be that much stronger than him and still be in the same Tier which has a small gap anyway.
 
Though it does. Characters that are merely twice as strong as another can beat them, and rather thoroughly at that. It occurs in fiction all the time. And being stronger doesn't mean Zahard is strong enough to the point where Urek can no longer contend with him. Arie and Urek are about the same level, alright. Arie looses to Zahard, sure, but how badly? It's certainly not that he can't harm Zahard, and we're not at all sure how badly Arie looses. An increase of 4 to 5 times is nearing one shot territory, and it is highly implausible that Zahard is that far above Urek or Arie. It doesn't even have to be an increase of two times for Zahard to be above either of them, and it's not accurate to assume that he is that far above them without such evidence.

I did read it fully. Please don't accuse me of such, it's why I addressed the Enryu thing the way I did, because I read your post fully, and I'd assume that you'd do the same with my posts. I understand we disagree, but the accusations are unnecessary.
 
Lol, I replied before I saw this message. I was just reading that thinking how many of Maschenny's abilities were underestimated, or the experience gap understated. It takes a very long time to climb the tower, likely longer than All Might has lived. That alone grants her far more experience, not just with battles, but with various tests as well.
 
Yes, I also realized that Maschenny's skills and experience were underestimated. Also, it seems that all the Versus Thread involving ToG, it seems that the ToG characters will always have the advantage of experience most of the time.
 
True. It's not really much of an advantage, but it does help a bit more in situations against characters that don't have a lot of hax. Or characters not from shonen (cause many anime, manga, and manhwa characters manage to beat those whose experience dwarfs the lifespan of their grandparents).
 
Well, but it is a reasonable advantage for the ToG characters (though being more experienced does not automatically give you the win, as it does in real life, too, where the youngest beats the older and more experienced).

Soul Eater 6-C characters vs. Tower of God 6-C characters? This will be interesting.
 
Leon you haven't fully read my post then. I never said Ueek could not contain with Zahard. I'll say this again. The baseline for High 6-B is 100 Teratons, and the cap is 760 Teratons. So that already is a 7.6x gap. However Urek (while handicapped) is at 293 Teratons.

760 / 293 = 2.59385666x.

And Urek was handicapped Zahard only needs to be 3x stronger than a handicapped Urek to be 6-A. This is what I've been trying to get across. Zahard is most certainly 6-A.
 
I still disagree, for the exact reasons I gave. A multiplier of 2 to 3 times is not needed to stomp someone in verse. And we also don't know how the battles between Zahard and the head of the Arie family went. They could very well have been hard fought battles, each and every one of them, such that they are close in strength. Or there could have been moderate difficulty for Zahard. Feeling like you're unable to win is no different from Baam feeling unable to lose against Kaiser. The two still scaled to each other, and this should be no different.

Urek being handicapped means he can boost himself, sure. But to boost himself to double his strength or something similar has only been seen with the likes of the Redan, which doesns't apply to Urek. Therefore it would be incorrect to assume that he can amp himself to double his stats (I don't believe any shinsoo user has done this outside of using the Redan or Ignition), and it's safest to simply use what we have.

Is there a reason why, At least High 6-B, likely 6-A cannot be used for the combination of our reasons? It seems like the best possibility here.
 
Leon you are once again misunderstanding me. I NEVER ONCE SAID THAT A 2-3X DIFFERENCE IN POWER IS A STOMP, nor did I say Zahard could stomp Urek. I'm saying that even a small diffrence like 3x in strength for Zahard would make him 6-A. And stomp saying "we don't know how the battle went". We DO know. He was defeated 10 times and agreed to become Zahards servant because of the gap in strength. You don't need any more details than that to know that Zahard was clearly much more powerful than Arie Hon. Again you keep misunderstanding the point i'm trying to get across.


Also being in anothing tier doesn't mean you will stomp someone on a lower Tier. A charcacter with an AP of 79 Tons of TNT isn't getting stomped by someone with an AP of 200 tons, even though the former is 8-B and the latter is 8-A.
 
But even in your example, that's not even a three times difference.

My point is this, If a 2-3x difference in power isn't enough to stomp, and we know that Zahard defeated the head of the Arie family ten times (defeated, not stomped, but defeated) then who are we to assume that he is 2-3x stronger if he didn't even stomp someone on par with Urek? I believe you are misunderstanding my point, and trying to push for a 6-A god tier using scaling that's not suitable enough for the task. Urek = Arie Hon. Arie Hon lost to Zahard 10 times. How much stronger is Zahard than Arie Hon? We actually don't know, purely because we don't know how the battles went, plain and simple. And being more powerful than someone and being capable of defeating them, doesn't have to equal a 2x increase. So why would you assume such here? The scaling simply isn't quite good enough here for such an assumption. And the tier, At least High 6-B, likely 6-A takes into account that he could potentially be 2-3x stronger, but that the scaling does not 100% confirm such, only makes it a possibility.


Another example would be Han Jee-Ha from the Gamer. Many of his enemies from The Church of Masks Arc are comparable to him, yet he succeeded in one shotting the majority (which I'm rather sure Zahard didn't due to Arie Hon, otherwise they wouldn't have classified it as a 'fight'), due to intelligence, and use of skill, not because of a gap of 2-3x worth of AP. Baam vs Kaiser is another fantastic example. Baam never once felt he would lose, yet it was still a hard fought battle, such that it would be wrong to assume that he's 2-3x stronger than her. In fact, the amount is unquantifiable. But many would agree that if he had to fight her again, he would likely win. 10 times in a row perhaps, yet each battle would be hard fought, and they would always scale fairly directly to each other.

This is my point. Defeating someone a certain number of times is not enough o justify that they are now 2-3x stronger, as such an gap in AP is not required for defeating someone. There are various other facts aside from that. Technique, luck, experience. Not to mention that in fiction, those with an AP gap of less than 2, often times one character can appear to be overwhelming stronger than the other. More so, we literally don't know how their fights went outside of Zahard winning each time. Winning could be anywhere from stomping to losing if the fight had gone on just one more second. And given that Arie Hon is a family head, it would be best not to make any assumptions about how a fight between him and another top tier has gone.
 
OH. MY. GOD. YOU DO NOT NEED TO STOMP SOMEONE TO BE IN A HIGHER TIER TO THEM. Stop trying to make it out like that. Read my post fully. A 79 Ton character is in a lower tier than a 200 Ton character, but that doesn't mean the 200 will stomp the 79, but it DOESN'T change the fact that one is in a higher tier. Your'e really making it seem like every single Tier jump is magnitudes stronger than the last. Agin each of the 10 Battles was not "hard fought". Zahard was determined - by Arie himself since he accepted his servitude- to be so strong that he agreed to become his servant. Look up the attack potency page. The high End to Low End ratio for High 6-B is only 7.6x and 2.59385666 for Urek's feat. It's not that hard.
 
I'm well aware of the difference. 2-3x is the difference, as I've stated in numerous replies to you. I simply believe it to be a safer bet to stick to the feat we have, rather than powerscale into another tier. The gap may not be that large, but we cannot ascertain how much stronger Zahard is than Urek.

Arie becoming a servant does not mean that the battles were any less hard fought. Once again, this is an assumption, as we literally have no idea how the battles went as they haven't been shown. I don't understand why the safer route does not appeal to you. Someone doesn't have to be 2-3 times stronger to defeat someone. That is the fact here. If someone doesn't have to be 2-3x stronger to defeat someone, then why would we assume that Zahard is 2-3x stronger than Arie simply because he defeated him numerous times? Because he acknowledged his strength? None of that requires him to be 2-3x stronger than Arie (or Urek in this case, as it's his feat).


It's clear that we're not going to agree here, so I believe it best to just allow others to place their input as they may, and we'll simply go by a majority ruling for his tier.
 
So i saw zahard's profile and he's tiering at 6A while urek sits at 6B?? i don't understand pls. In his profile(attack potency) he was also stated to be "much superior" to urek, how so?? when was that ever confirmed he was ever stronger than urek?? based on rankings he's only above urek due to being the king of the tower(the most influential person in the tower).

I could recall in SIU's blogs when he stated urek once stormed the ranking base to question them why they rate phantaminum over him, he then asked them that "have u ever seen me fight with phantaminum??"

Urek strongly believes in his strength to be superior to everyone in the tower(including zahard) that's why he even told baam that he doesn't care about being the king of the tower and said zahard could go play king somewhere else(or something along those lines).

And in the same profile he's being compared to the guardians?? nono no we don't know that yet pls, lets not base all this on speculations but actual facts. Until we get statements or feats for jahad being comparable to the guardians he should remain an at least high 6B for now.

I believe the attack potency for jahad should be changed to at least high 6B for now.
 
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