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Touhou VS Undertale

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yeah, when you get high into the undertale verse things get pretty rediculous. also there's always the fact that you have sans making short work on anyone who had killed alot, which would be even more deadly if he was in a large battle and say attack people caught by undyne or throw his attacks in with papyrus' so no one knew what bones they had to dodge
 
By the way, there's a very good chance that even if Reimu floats, she can still die. I don't see escaping reality saving her from beings that also can exist outside reality... with frightening power levels. Though, there's no telling what level of ability Reimu is at in such a situation because it hasn't come up before.

Yes, you all heard me right. Floating does not equal safety.
 
Her ability to float is basically ability to escape from reality (wow, it looks like some kind of mental disorder). Or in other words to antogonize reality by some margin (for example her ability to fly is defying gravity).
 
I wonder when we see fanon Reimu defying any type of enemy attacks?

I wonder what kind of power posses Dragon God? Low 2-C or 2-C... Or 2-B?
 
In addition to Dragon God's unknown power, there's also implied entinties such as higher order celestials. Greater divine spirits are no joke either. But it's all unknown. I'm sure a fanon authour can, (and probably has already) conjured such a depiction already.
 
I wonder how powerful Hecatia really is... being a greater celestial god, potentially on par with the likes of Ameterasu. Being the literal embodiment of magic... including witchcraft, necromancy, sorcery... as well as ghosts, thresholds, crossroads, and the border between worlds. And of course, she runs Hell... all of them. She's also associated with dogs(does that include AD?), light, the moon, and knowledge of poisonous herbs and plants(oddly specific).

And of course, her outfit is classic... "Welcome ÔØñ Hell"

"On days like these..."

"...kids like you..."

"are burning in Hell! ÔØñ"
 
Well, by some evidence we could probably make a guess about what divinites should be in Touhou.

Sun Wukong - because it's was vaguely stated that mini-hakkero was made of that furnace. Since it's not really stated about him... Probably it's classic Sun Wukong from legends.

Hou Yi and Chang'E - because of Chernobyl-chan. Chang'E probably has the same durability as Sun Wukong.

EDIT: I think we should talk about possibilites somewhere else though.
 
It was made from strange material, probably furnace fragment.

I wonder what kind of crazy thing Rinnosuke has...

EDIT: Found it. It was made after the legendary furnace with unkown core as catalyst. =_=
 
You also have to count the existence of Determination, since that's the source of Undertale Reality Warping power.

Without Deter: Touhou win, hard

With Deter: That's debatable, depend on how the Brains of Gensokyo is going to exploited that.
 
with the current stats I've seen this looks like a super stomp for Undertale since it has three 4-D beings and one 5-D one.
 
Are we seriously going to say that Touhou stands a chance against a bunch of Immeasurable folks?

The fastest Touhou can get right now is Infifnite, even then they need to activate it and stuff.
 
It's not just mental thing, it's an actual, visible source of power (and thus, easily collect) that allow even Asriel to break reality. And combine with the fact that we have a boundary manipulator here... Not to mention a soul manipulator chock full of Determination would have a chance to rip soul out of that guy.

The lesson: Don't let any borrower fight Touhou girls.
 
Andykhang said:
It's not just mental thing, it's an actual, visible source of power (and thus, easily collect) that allow even Asriel to break reality.
Click to expand...
No, it's also mainly a mental thing, as well as a spiritual thing. Monsters don't seem to normally generate it (except for Undyne) because their bodies can't handle it, but humans do naturally. It's called Determination because that's what it is; Determination. When Frisk was fighting Asriel, despite being infinitely weaker, Frisk was determined enough to not be erased from reality, and so they weren't. During the genocide route, Undyne was determined to not go down without a fight, and so she not only remained alive, but became strong enough to fight Chara.
 
Well, Touhou is chock full of one with willpower. Youkai kinda need that to live, even normal human have better mentality, even the place is bulit on the will to live, there's a certain sage that patiently wait for a 1000 years (or not though, it's seem like she's doing it out of a wimp) to have a perfect chance to win, and i can't even imagine the will to live of someone that doesn't treat anything with any matter (i'm talking about Reimu here)

And even if that don't amass enough Determination, Density + Boundary will.
 
Determination is a special characteristic of Undertale's world. I don't understeand what it had to do with anything in Touhou.

Because, well, Determination is not just an emotion. It's a literal substance.
 
You are treating Determination as if it is something anyone from any franchise can generate, which is not true. It is inherent to one or two races in a single verse that can harness it, and most seemingly can't even use it effectively.

I also really don't think boundary manipulation is going to help when even the weakest god tier is immeasurable and Determination itself is quite literally a power that can deny other powers from affecting it.
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
You are treating Determination as if it is something anyone from any franchise can generate, which is not true. It is inherent to one or two races in a single verse that can harness it, and most seemingly can't even use it effectively.
Click to expand...
Oh, uh. That was for me or for Andykhang?
 
^Well, when you do cross-over, you need the battlefield to have the property of both world to make that an even match (Ex: Without the Undertale-verse property to give Determination it Reality-breaking power, even Asriel is just a kid with hoarding problem in Touhou standard). But, in this case, it mean give Determination Field (that's what I'm going to call it know) access to both side, so this become the war to see who could better used that Reality Warping resource. And since the amount of brains and haxx the Touhou side have is more ridiculous...
 
Andykhang said:
^Well, when you do cross-over, you need the battlefield to have the property of both world to make that an even match (Ex: Without the Undertale-verse property to give Determination it Reality-breaking power, even Asriel is just a kid with hoarding problem in Touhou standard). But, in this case, it mean give Determination Field (that's what I'm going to call it know) access to both side, so this become the war to see who could better used that Reality Warping resource. And since the amount of brains and haxx the Touhou side have is more ridiculous...
Click to expand...
None in the Touhou side can produce Determination since the Determination in their world is not the same as the Determintion in the world of Undertale.

You are basically trying to give them powers just because both have the same name. It doesn't work like that.
 
I'm more curious about the comment about someone saying Touhou has an infinite speed character.

In any case in terms of debating Andy makes a point in Determination and the usage of it. There's also the part that you have to consider that it's not as if a single verse can't attempt to understand another verse's power. At least that's my opinion of it. Though even then I doubt all of Gensokyo members could use determination to an extreme extend unless you can argue that their monsters are different from Undertale's monsters. Imagining if Alex Mercer was ever placed in Undertale he could harness the Determination there

Either way I still reside that with spellcard rules Touhou winning

But on a more direct fight, well it's quicky fickle and hard cause the Top tiers are quite powerful for Undertale. But take away the top tiers for both sides and Touhou would probably wi
 
@Alice

Andy

@Andykhang

Giving Determination to everyone isn't how verse equalization works. It's not something inherent to the verse that it supplies to characters. It's something certain characters have and others don't. There's also the fact that you're assuming giving everyone Determination would supply them with the literally infinite amounts someone like Asriel can generate with seven SOULs, which isn't the case. Most people just seem to get a slight boost most of the time. Even Frisk, who is a complete anomaly, could only briefly hold off against Asriel at max Determination.
 
also we have no idea even if people in touhou gained knowledge of SOUL power and determination, how much they would actually have, which seeing how they don't even have enough for it to be relevent to them is not much
 
Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
@Alice
Andy

@Andykhang

Giving Determination to everyone isn't how verse equalization works. It's not something inherent to the verse that it supplies to characters. It's something certain characters have and others don't. There's also the fact that you're assuming giving everyone Determination would supply them with the literally infinite amounts someone like Asriel can generate with seven SOULs, which isn't the case. Most people just seem to get a slight boost most of the time. Even Frisk, who is a complete anomaly, could only briefly hold off against Asriel at max Determination.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but for the top tier in there to have top-tier power, it's inevitable for the battlefield to have been filled with Determination Field (which would leave for some interesting strategy involve isolating the top from that which give them power).

Also, what is the different between SOULs and Determination ?
 
Andykhang said:
Yeah, but for the top tier in there to have top-tier power, it's inevitable for the battlefield to have been filled with Determination Field (which would leave for some interesting strategy involve isolating the top from that which give them power).

Also, what is the different between SOULs and Determination ?
Click to expand...
Determination does not fill an area. It is inherent to each individual who possesses it. It's not an outside power which can be sapped away.

SOULs are the essence of one's being. Both monsters and humans have them, but human SOULs are deemed stronger due to not requiring things like kindness to survive. Usually, only human SOULs produce Determination, but most seem unable to use it to do anything spectacular.

Determination is a power traditionally produced by human SOULs which allows them to persist after death. Having high enough Determination can make you faster and stronger by incredible degrees, and the beings who have the most Determination are able to SAVE and LOAD.

If a monster (or something with similar properties, such as Flowey) absorb a human SOUL or SOULs, they gain immense power, presumably because they are now able to draw on the full power of that SOUL's Determination without their body melting.
 
^I doesn't said Determination, I said Determination Field, like electromagnetic field that birth electron and govern the law of electromagnetic. I agree it's not an outside power (not at much at any normal particle anyway), but the property for it to work must come from the field itself (or universe itself).

And all thing return to Determination huh? The SOULs can be dealt with the Touhou-verse though, since they specialize in souls more than you think ( like some of you said earlier though, the SOULs there and here may different, but it's seem like the definition for both side is the same. More over, the Youkai in Touhou-verse is totally different from the monster there, since like you said, monster relies on kindness to survive), since we have an emotion manipulator, a someone that can destroy souls itself and someone that can govern all the souls of the Netherworld (You really need some insane tactic to used that without triggered the top-tier power though.)
 
As I said before, there is no Determination field or something of that nature. It's a power inherent to certain individuals, not to the world itself.

I'm relatively familiar with Touhou, actually. It doesn't change the fact that nobody in the known verse can deal with immeasurable speed tier 2 characters, or even come close.
 
Seriously. This "Determination for all verses" argument is getting really tired. No, it's not part of verse equalization, no, Touhou characters cant have Undertale's Determination. Please, stop talking about something you are clearly not understeanding.
 
That would make for some fun matches though, not just with Undertale vs Touhou.

Either way it's clear here that Touhou loses. I'm a big fan of it Andy, and I believe Touhou streams through the mid tiers easily, but the moment they bring in the big guns? Well Undertale stomps Touhou even with Shinki around. I recommend you give this up.

That said wouldn't an immortal that can manipulate eternity be a great counter for someone against immeasurable? Well by counter I mean like they can face. Doesn't change the state of this battle either way.
 
^Guess this is my final attack on this before i dropped this (i really don't want to feel scare every single time just opening a thread), by providing a way Touhous mights win:

So, top-tier come doing top-tier thing. The only one that could escape (momentarily) this is Reimu Hakurei (Fantasy Heaven's unpercievableness), Yukari Yakumo (Boun haxx) and... Koishi Komeji? (Unconciously non-regconize) Also the Lunar Capital-tier and Dragon God-tier. It's most likely the top tier would find time to fight the two, and be distracted enough to hatched and execute a plan.

Presumtably, they know that the top-tier power come from souls, which itself is normal, and the mysterious power that controlled by willpower. So, deactivated both of those thing, and the top tier power shouldn't work. So they grapped Yuyuko, Suika and somebody that could control emotion (in this case, Kokoro).

Next, they need to somehow "convince" Frisk (very high chance he could escape it already) to challenge the top tier like they did last time (otherwise the top tier isn't going to be immobile enough to catch). The moment Frisk tried to "save" the souls from inside the top tier, that itself would give Yukari (layed under Koishi's abilities) enough loophole to open the boundary between mind, and plunging in the team.Then it would be the matter of simutaniously sapped away the willpower that come from the souls (done by Kokoro and Suika's attraction), and maunovaring the souls itself out of the top tier.

Of course, the plan is flawed, need some major guessing and assumption that it could work, and probably isn't going to save the Touhou-verse anyway. But if it all according to plan, this would be a pyrrhic victory for them.
 
I respect the choice of making one final strike.

Anyway true, except Koishi might just be swallowed up if Asriel goes for the timeline eating. Then again Yukari might be able to bring them away, but multiverse scaling despite timeline repeating itself.

How would they know they were from the souls though? If they had prep time it would make sense but the battle here itself is becoming less of a battle and moreso a story. Not that it's a bad thing but everyone seems intent on making the two factions fight against each other. Then again one can argue that Frisk is just a child so Frisk could change sides.

Then again... There has been a potential boost to Touhou. I'll wait a bit more before deciding, but it'll probably still be Undertale's win in all honesty.
 
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