Topaz's Indie Game Stats Equal Tournament: Round 1 (The Reckoning vs Asriel Dreemurr) (0-0-0)

[Topaz404]

Well. This is going to be interesting
Round 1!
Between the end of the galaxy and a hyper powerful timeline erasing goat, the end must come

Fight takes place.....somewhere. They kinda destroyed the arena

Bracket n Rules

The Reckoning, Thy End of the Cycle: 0

The God of Hyperdeath, Asriel Dreemurr: 0

Incon: 0​

 

[EnderLord8]

Following

 

[koopa3144]

Following, I'm bout to go offline for a bit but I'll post a break down when I come back. Btw if I don't respond for one of my characters in a timely manner, the other character should go on.

 

[Topaz404]

Alrighty, thank you Koopa. From a quick glance, i dunno, this seems like it could be a fair fight

 

[DrGreyman]

Alright, to start off
The End of The Cycle's avatar is basically just a glowing ball of thought the size of a planet,
The villains wiki has a good picture of what they look like
When The End fights enemy ships they just fire off lasers at whatever is attacking it, not really bothering to dodge enemy attacks so Asriel's attacks are almost guaranteed to hit, if they can get past The End's Incorporeality. I don't know what the consensus is on SOULs in Undertale being physical objects so Asriel might just be able to hit The End. Given stats are equal if The End's other tricks can't get Asriel there is a good chance Asriel can simply whittle The End down and win. The End does have shields and those shields can regenerate if Asriel doesn't attack fast enough, so there's that.

Not sure how The End's soul absorption would interact with Asriel, The End can absorb an entire multi-solar system spanning an empire's worth of souls once The Reckoning pops, so there's a chance The End just sucks up all the Underground's souls and turns Asriel back into Flowey lol. Psionics in Stellaris basically just means anyone who can do magic with their minds/can touch the Shroud in their mind.

 

[Topaz404]

(Ill just comment here and say feel free to bring in whoever you wish to help debate, just let them know of the rules)

 

[koopa3144]

So does Asriel have access to true reset here cause that could be a big factor here.

if they can get past The End's Incorporeality. I don't know what the consensus is on SOULs in Undertale being physical objects so Asriel might just be able to hit The End

Iirc Undertale souls are also Incorporeal so Asriel's magic should be able to interact with The Reckoning.

The End does have shields and those shields can regenerate if Asriel doesn't attack fast enough, so there's that.

Asriel does have access to Sans intangible attacks so he could bypass The Reckonings' forcefield with them.

Not sure how The End's soul absorption would interact with Asriel, The End can absorb an entire multi-solar system spanning an empire's worth of souls once The Reckoning pops, so there's a chance The End just sucks up all the Underground's souls and turns Asriel back into Flowey lol.

Unless The Reckoning takes away the Human Souls Asriel should still be able to LOAD back to a point before The Reckoning took his souls. And even as Flowey he'll probably retain control of the timeline depending on if it can properly use the Human Souls.

 

[Topaz404]

I mean, True Reset should be fine within the ruleset, but looking at Asriel's page, it looks like he already has the tools needed to win. Think of True Reset as the "oh fvck im going to lose unless i use it" emergency button

 

[DrGreyman]

So does Asriel have access to true reset here cause that could be a big factor here.

Actually, on Asriel's page True Reset only negates Type 1 Acausality, The End has Type 4, so it might not work

Iirc Undertale souls are also Incorporeal so Asriel's magic should be able to interact with The Reckoning.

Fair enough

Asriel does have access to Sans intangible attacks so he could bypass The Reckonings' forcefield with them.

Also fair

Unless The Reckoning takes away the Human Souls Asriel should still be able to LOAD back to a point before The Reckoning took his souls. And even as Flowey he'll probably retain control of the timeline depending on if it can properly use the Human Souls.

The Reckoning can take any soul that had access to Psionics in life, or that makes a pact with The End. We know that the souls are still aware in Flowey/Asriel, so it's entirely possible with The End's telepathy that they could make a pact and The End gets to suck the souls out of the flower. It's not like the souls particularly like being used by Asriel, so The End could do something there.

 

[koopa3144]

We know that the souls are still aware in Flowey/Asriel, so it's entirely possible with The End's telepathy that they could make a pact and The End gets to suck the souls out of the flower. It's not like the souls particularly like being used by Asriel, so The End could do something there.

Idk if The Human Souls would willing work with The End cause they went against Flowey cause Frisk was gonna be basically killed over and over and by Flowey asked them for help, I'm not 100% sure they would do the same for The End.

 

[DrGreyman]

The human souls rebelled against Omega Flowey the moment Frisk called for help, and the monster souls did the same once reminded of who they were. The End doesn't have the emotional connection to the souls that Frisk did, but The End is also very persuasive and generous with their deals, there is a chance that The End could simply strip Asriel of his souls and easily clap him after.

 

[koopa3144]

The human souls rebelled against Omega Flowey the moment Frisk called for help, and the monster souls did the same once reminded of who they were. The End doesn't have the emotional connection to the souls that Frisk did, but The End is also very persuasive and generous with their deals, there is a chance that The End could simply strip Asriel of his souls and easily clap him after.

Still, I don't think the Souls are gonna be very eager to work with a being that's attempting Omnicide, and even if it tries Flowey can still instantly LOAD with his remaining DT and prevent it from communicating with the souls.

 

[DrGreyman]

Still, I don't think the Souls are gonna be very eager to work with a being that's attempting Omnicide, and even if it tries Flowey can still instantly LOAD with his remaining DT and prevent it from communicating with the souls.

I mean, Flowey quite explicitly can't LOAD without the souls in that battle and if The End got them they'd probably count as the most determined entity in the world at that moment. Also, the souls don't know that The End is attempting Omnicide. We don't have a story in this battle, but even in-game all The End does is go from world to world and turn them into Shrouded worlds. That's in an attempt to kill, but the souls don't have any knowledge of what The End is doing.
Personally, if I was one of the souls and this flower thing took me and the rest of the souls in the Underground to become something the flower called THE GOD OF HYPERDEATH, and this weird ball of light is trying to fight off the flower and asks for help and offers, idk freedom in exchange, I would try to side with the weird ball.

 

[koopa3144]

I mean, Flowey quite explicitly can't LOAD without the souls in that battle and if The End got them they'd probably count as the most determined entity in the world at that moment.

true but Asriel will likely notice it trying to steal his souls and LOAD immediately to get them back. He'll prob also do him like Frisk in the Omega Flowey once he realizes that it's a threat to him and can take the source of his power.

---

Btw does The End resist Paralysis Inducement cause if doesn't its pretty screwed once Asriel uses his true power.

 

[Topaz404]

AAAAAAA
crap i forgot to take stuff like SAVE/LOAD and revival skills into consideration.
The hax tiers thing does mention Ress being in High, but with the Limited tag on it as well.

Would it be appropriate to limit the amount of times Save/Load can be spammed or?

 

[koopa3144]

AAAAAAA
crap i forgot to take stuff like SAVE/LOAD and revival skills into consideration.
The hax tiers thing does mention Ress being in High, but with the Limited tag on it as well.

Would it be appropriate to limit the amount of times Save/Load can be spammed or?

Flowey's whole thing is Saving and Loading and uses it a lot in combat. Imo restricting his ability to resurrect from LOADing should work.

 

[Topaz404]

Flowey's whole thing is Saving and Loading and uses it a lot in combat. Imo restricting his ability to resurrect from LOADing should work.

Yeah thats the main thing i was worried about, but i think it is fair nonetheless. In this case, Flowey is gonna have to be a little smarter with his planning

 

[DrGreyman]

true but Asriel will likely notice it trying to steal his souls and LOAD immediately to get them back. He'll prob also do him like Frisk in the Omega Flowey once he realizes that it's a threat to him and can take the source of his power.

So he tries to LOAD a morbillion times to stop The End from getting his souls, why didn't that work with Frisk? If LOADing wiped the souls' memories, then I could see that working, but the souls remember Frisk helping them inside Flowey, and The End's soul absorption happens the instant its pact is finished. All the contact has to be is 'think to agree, I get to absorb you and after the battle you get to go free, the contract will be over in 0.00000000000001 picoseconds, and boom, the soul is absorbed and Asriel can't LOAD anymore.

Btw does The End resist Paralysis Inducement cause if doesn't its pretty screwed once Asriel uses his true power.

Well, no, but it doesn't really need to. Frisk could still think and ACT while paralyzed, and The End doesn't do much physical moving anyway. The End could still think and fire its mind lasers and all that.

 

[koopa3144]

Btw how fast is The End's soul absorption? Asriel has the souls of the entire underground in him so it might not even get to the Human Souls before Asriel realizes his souls are being taken and LOADs. Also if it does take the souls what's stopping Flowey from just stealing them back cause he can steal souls without direct contact.

Well, no, but it doesn't really need to. Frisk could still think and ACT while paralyzed, and The End doesn't do much physical moving anyway. The End could still think and fire its mind lasers and all that.

Then Asriel can probably take it out quickly with his Limited Durability Negation danmaku and due to being passively 10 stat points stronger with Memory Head's powers.

 

[DrGreyman]

Btw how fast is The End's soul absorption? Asriel has the souls of the entire underground in him so it might not even get to the Human Souls before Asriel realizes his souls are being taken and LOADs. Also if it does take the souls what's stopping Flowey from just stealing them back cause he can steal souls without direct contact.

In game, The End makes a contract with the player to give major boons to the player's empire, but in 50 years The End will come to collect.
50 years on the dot, The End completely wipes out the player's entire empire, which can span almost an entire galaxy in size. The souls of all the people in the player's empire are then transformed into clouds of thought like The End's avatar and go on a rampage throughout any other empire that survived the wipe.

Then Asriel can probably take it out quickly with his Limited Durability Negation danmaku and due to being passively 10 stat points stronger with Memory Head's powers.

I'm just saying the paralysis wouldn't do anything more than what The End is doing on its own. It also doesn't help the soul situation

 

[koopa3144]

In game, The End makes a contract with the player to give major boons to the player's empire, but in 50 years The End will come to collect.
50 years on the dot, The End completely wipes out the player's entire empire, which can span almost an entire galaxy in size. The souls of all the people in the player's empire are then transformed into clouds of thought like The End's avatar and go on a rampage throughout any other empire that survived the wipe.

So is his soul absorption thought-based cause if so it would fall under Very High hax or higher and would be restricted by the rules.

 

[Topaz404]

That.....doesnt sound like thought based Soul Absorb, if i may interject. The End comes after 50 years have passed, kills everything and everyone in your empire, and those who are killed are turned into clouds of thought
I dont think thats thought based Soul Absorb, more just lack some wack Transmuation/Transformation

 

[koopa3144]

That.....doesnt sound like thought based Soul Absorb, if i may interject. The End comes after 50 years have passed, kills everything and everyone in your empire, and those who are killed are turned into clouds of thought
I dont think thats thought based Soul Absorb, more just lack some wack Transmuation/Transformation

Afaik from the description given; Whenever it wants (It only waited 50 years because of the contract terms) it can instantly kill a galaxy worth of people, steal their souls, and turn them into clouds of thought. It can be used to immediately win a match against someone without protection and is likely thought based so it should be a Very High if not Godly hax.

 

[DrGreyman]

"Very High - Hax that when used can ignore distance to immediately win a match against someone without protection. Nearly all thought, vocal, gesture, and sight-based hax that isn't Low are Very High"
"Low - Situational hax. Low hax is are abilities that have a condition to activate"
The End has to get the soul's permission to reap it, that counts as a condition to activate.

That.....doesnt sound like thought based Soul Absorb, if i may interject. The End comes after 50 years have passed, kills everything and everyone in your empire, and those who are killed are turned into clouds of thought
I dont think thats thought based Soul Absorb, more just lack some wack Transmuation/Transformation

That's what it's listed on the profile is referring to I believe. Many of the souls go into forming the main avatar, but the rest farther away form mini clouds to fight with The Reckoning. "Once 50 years have passed since forming the End of the Cycle Covenant, the Reckoning will take place. All planets will be depopulated and turned into Shrouded Worlds. All leaders, fleets and ships will be instantly destroyed" "Every previous colony will spawn a shroud manifestation. Finally, an immensely powerful Shroud entity known as "The Reckoning" will appear over the empire's former capital, and proceed to seek out the remaining life in the galaxy." From the Paradox wiki.

The End is still what's controlling all the things spawned from the pact, I don't see any reason it couldn't reach out to the souls in Asriel. Of course, Asriel himself has no reason to agree to a pact, so The End has no claim over him and can't insta kill him. The souls he reaps in game were all given willingly by taking the pact 50 years earlier to sacrifice your empire.

 

[Topaz404]

I was just giving my two cents on it all, but yeah, its pact based. Is Asriel doesnt form a pact, The End cant do much but to reach out to the SOULs within Asriel

 

[DrGreyman]

I'm not trying to argue that The End can instakill Asriel, I'm arguing that he could depower Asriel and then kill him conventionally

 

[koopa3144]

Oh, I thought it was just gonna suck the souls out of Asriel lol. So if it needs to make a deal with the Souls to absorb them, has its telepathy been shown to work on Incorporeal souls? Even if so the Monsters are Lost souls and can only attack mindlessly and there are potentially hundreds of Monsters inside of Asriel vs only Six Human souls. Asriel can also feel the emotions of the souls and will prob True reset to avoid the souls leaving which will get rid of their memories and EE the End.

 

[DrGreyman]

Oh, I thought it was just gonna suck the souls out of Asriel lol. So if it needs to make a deal with the Souls to absorb them, has its telepathy been shown to work on Incorporeal souls? Even if so the Monsters are Lost souls and can only attack mindlessly and there are potentially hundreds of Monsters inside of Asriel vs only Six Human souls. Asriel can also feel the emotions of the souls and will prob True reset to avoid the souls leaving which will get rid of their memories and EE the End.

Again, True Reset is noted as neg Type 1 acausality, End has Type 4, so it wouldn't affect The End.
The Shroud, the realm where The End actually resides, is entirely made of thought and souls, no real energy for physical bodies so I'd say it works on the souls.

The Lost Souls in Asriel only seem to be reverted to their 'default', basically their memories of Frisk are buried and they are acting on instinct, but that wouldn't matter for The End. They still have desires, something they want/need, and The End makes deals for whatever the people who speak with it want to hear. Undyne's Lost Soul wants to kill all humans? Cool, The End just promises if she comes with it she can have an entire planet of humans to kill! And anything else the souls want. It's noted that what Frisk does to bring them back to their senses is familiar to them, but that doesn't matter since they never met The End to begin with.

Also, "Intelligence: Nigh-Omniscient (Comprehends technology that is unattainable in verse with countless years of research. Superior and similar in nature to an unnamed being who watches over every universe simultaneously. Has knowledge of "The inconceivable multitude of options and probabilities that exist both in the past and the future")"
The End of The Cycle's mind is near god status. I don't see why it would be forced to go through each soul 1 by 1 or take its time, it could speak to and make a deal with every soul at once if it wanted to.

 

[koopa3144]

Again, True Reset is noted as neg Type 1 acausality, End has Type 4, so it wouldn't affect The End.

That only means he doesn't get his memories removed, it would still be effected by the EE and info hax of True reset.

The Lost Souls in Asriel only seem to be reverted to their 'default', basically their memories of Frisk are buried and they are acting on instinct, but that wouldn't matter for The End. They still have desires, something they want/need, and The End makes deals for whatever the people who speak with it want to hear. Undyne's Lost Soul wants to kill all humans? Cool, The End just promises if she comes with it she can have an entire planet of humans to kill! And anything else the souls want. It's noted that what Frisk does to bring them back to their senses is familiar to them, but that doesn't matter since they never met The End to begin with.

Eh, as I noted lost souls are mindless and are only capable of attacking and don't respond to Frisk until they remember who they are. For The End it would be like talking to hundreds of brick walls, it probably won't be able to get anything out of them before Asriel feels what's going on and goes off on him.

---

I'll also note that Asriel has access to Sans time stop meaning as soon as he feels his souls being talked to he can just stop time on The End and go ham.

 

[Topaz404]

Sans has timestop? Where exactly? Just need some clarification on that (i dont remember him stopping time anywhere)

 

[koopa3144]

Sans has timestop? Where exactly? Just need some clarification on that (i dont remember him stopping time anywhere)

It's here on his profile.

 

[Topaz404]

Huh, well, even at best thats only likely, but.....i mean if Papyrus was telling the truth (i mean he isnt really one to lie)
eh whatever. day's just started and im still tired

 

[DrGreyman]

That only means he doesn't get his memories removed, it would still be effected by the EE and info hax of True reset.

TBH if that's true I think true reset should be over the hax limit, if he can just instantly EE by thought through resetting with no chance of The End doing anything about it.

Eh, as I noted lost souls are mindless and are only capable of attacking and don't respond to Frisk until they remember who they are. For The End it would be like talking to hundreds of brick walls, it probably won't be able to get anything out of them before Asriel feels what's going on and goes off on him.

Each of the souls in the fight is fighting Frisk because it's something they want to do. All of their dialogue indicates that they are doing it for a reason, not that they are mindless. Again, Undyne talks about killing humans, Papyrus says he needs to capture you, Toriel and Asgore say 'this is for your own good', and each of them responds in character to what Frisk does. When you ask Alphys to talk about her favorite show she actively wants to talk about it, when you ask Papyrus about spaghetti he can 'barely contain his excitement', that doesn't sound like they are flailing around, that sounds like they just lost their memory of Frisk.

I'll also note that Asriel has access to Sans time stop meaning as soon as he feels his souls being talked to he can just stop time on The End and go ham.

It's here on his profile.

1, that is dubious at best and hasn't ever been used in combat, why didn't sans use that when he was trying to kill geno frisk? it even only says 'likely' on the profile
2, even if he could stop time, there is nothing to indicate that he can use the souls' powers in combat. all of his attacks are of his own making in GoHD mode.

 

[koopa3144]

1, that is dubious at best and hasn't ever been used in combat, why didn't sans use that when he was trying to kill geno frisk? it even only says 'likely' on the profile

iirc we consider Sans doing the blinking thing him stopping time to set up attacks.

2, even if he could stop time, there is nothing to indicate that he can use the souls' powers in combat. all of his attacks are of his own making in GoHD mode.

Profile says he can use the abilities of the souls he absorbed.

 

[DrGreyman]

alright im just blind. That still doesn't seem right, it's the souls themselves that are using those abilities and not asriel, but if the profile says so I guess...

 

[DrGreyman]

But here's something, on The End's profile it's listed to have resistance to time manipulation, and it has time manipulation itself
it could just not care about the timestop asriel's san's soul might have

 

[koopa3144]

But here's something, on The End's profile it's listed to have resistance to time manipulation, and it has time manipulation itself
it could just not care about the timestop asriel's san's soul might have

iirc Space-Time Manipulation does not equal resistance to time manip.

 

[DrGreyman]

.>: (
So, there's nothing The End can do at all?
Since apparently if it tries anything Asriel just instantly timestop/True Reset ggs it
That doesn't seem like high hax

Huh, well, even at best thats only likely, but.....i mean if Papyrus was telling the truth (i mean he isnt really one to lie)
eh whatever. day's just started and im still tired

what do you think




Though, question
would The End have more Determination than Asriel?
Going off of the idea that the more souls in you = the more determination you have
The Reckoning is made by mashing the souls of billions of people together into one thought clump
that's more than the ~7 Asriel has

 

[koopa3144]

Though, question
would The End have more Determination than Asriel?
Going off of the idea that the more souls in you = the more determination you have
The Reckoning is made by mashing the souls of billions of people together into one thought clump
that's more than the ~7 Asriel has

Those Souls won't have DT as it exists in Undertale so no.

 

[Topaz404]

I mean, if Azzy didnt have Time Stop, i dunno if it would matter. To be honest though the whole time stopping thing is still only likely
The reasoning behind it seems kinda iffy as well. Sure. Papyrus doesnt really lie much, though if Sans just teleporting around extremely quickly- that just seems like Sans is just screwing with the player

I dunno, its weird.

Also yeah if Sans had timestop why wouldnt he use it against Geno Frisk, unless that was already answered