[Toaru character addition to a profile] Adding the Will to the Sisters page

[Churronzon]

So yeah, I'm looking to add the Will of the Whole Misaka Network to the Sisters page.​

Here's my sandbox.

Abstract Existence: (Type 1; Exists as the collective consciousness, ego, and will of 20,001 Sisters.) [She lacks any sort of physical form and instead needs to possess a Sister to use as a "physical terminal."] [An aspect of her existence is that of the invisible third tree.]
She is also referred to as a "third existence."
[Nonduality] (Type 1) and Immortality (Type 5): comes from being considered alive while dead and dead while alive which allowed her to be directly unaffected by Othinus' reality warping/perfected Einherjar spell who only had control over those two binary categories. [She's also compared to Schrödinger's cat]

[Semi-Omnipresence and Type 9 Immortality]:
She fills and floats in the Misaka Network
While she was unaffected by Othinus destroying and recreating the material world repeatedly in her fights against Kamijou Touma, she was described as residing in an "unknown place", both as she was disappearing and after it was over.

Will stated that the collective (which she herself is) encompasses the 10 spheres and 22 pathways of the Clonoth that Qliphah Puzzle 545 saw overlap the surface world.) [She stated that she's with Accelerator at all times and in all places.]

Law Manipulation (This ability is already on Accelerator's profile):
Coronzon, the Great Demon who dwells in the Abyss and blocks ascent through the Sephiroth, stated that Accelerator embedding the Clonoth Tree into the world would cause a change more fundamental than Angel Fall did.

For context, Angel Fall permeated and affected the Four Worlds, with Asiyah representing the surface/physical/material world, and would forcibly reduce the rank of an angel into that of a human, and vice-versa.

This new set of laws and hierarchy from the third tree allowed Accelerator to land a decisive strike on Coronzon who could not be defeated by miracles reliant on the Sephiroth or Qliphoth.)

---

[Semi-Offtopic, but also not really] I agree with DontTalkDT's years old comments that the Law Manipulation of Magic Gods should be downgraded to specify that they have control over the natural laws of the world, i.e material universe. It's not stated that they can affect the laws of the Four Worlds like Angel Fall/Clonoth Tree does. I could pitch that in a different CRT though, if need be.

---

Edit: [Abilities in the sandbox that still need evaluation]
Social Influencing (Stopped Touma from committing suicide after Othinus had shown him a perfect world without tragedy that could not be maintained if he remains alive, and spurred him into fighting Othinus throughout hundreds of billions of hells.)

“I was the one that urged you on, so I’ll stick with you if they get mad at you /return. Even if they treat you like an evil demon king, we can start out as just the two of us /return. And then you can work to gradually reclaim your shattered circle of friends /return. It won’t be easy, it will leave scars on the most sensitive part of a person, and it will directly affect the survival of people around the world /return. But /backspace, it will all work out in the end /return. I’ll stick with you until it does☆ /return.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 9 Chapter 7 Part 8

Limited memory manipulation (Can access the memories of the dead Sisters) - If it's not an ability, I'll just list it in the techniques section.

Limited Power bestowal (Granted Accelerator access to the Clonoth Tree, platinum wings, and additional calculation power.)
(I'm not sure about the additional calc power, but it's listed in Accelerator's profile)

Immortality (Type 8) (Is redefined by gathering the consciousness and egos of the Sisters)

Weaknesses
Retroactively reviving the dead Sisters and manipulating the events of their past would cause their collective consciousness, and thus the Will, to "change into 'something else' as if the data were being overwritten", For unknown reasons, she can't make an appearance in the world often

---

Spoiler: Reasons why I'm still bumping this CRT despite two admins disagreeing with it

My CRT initially had a fewer amount of scans and lacked some justifications (which is my fault) that didn't get responded to, those I remember being:

• The Will's comparison to Schrodinger's cat.
• The Will being perceived as being the Clonoth Tree
• The comparison to Angel Fall affecting the Four Worlds
• The clarification that the Will would not cease to exist if the Sisters weren't revived, but would instead by undefined by the data of their aggregate consciousness.

I could have just made a new CRT that contained the new argumentations and scans, but I'm not trying to skirt around and hide the staff's concerns or make it seem like I'm trying to manipulate their votes.

Provided below is an attempt at an unbiased summary of the comments section and it's contentions (rebuttals are provided as bullet points):

Abstract Existence is rejected on the basis of her existing as electromagnetic waves.

• She exists as the metaphysical tree itself, is an aggregate consciousness, and exists as the collective will, hence her name. She also survived the destruction of the entire world caused by Othinus. Electromagnetic waves cannot do that nor can it possess people.

Type 9 Immortality is rejected from "residing in an unknown place" being too speculative and possibly being on the same plane.

• If that was the only evidence I had I'd go for a possibly conditional, but she also exists across the Clonoth that has its own hidden 11th sphere which overlaps reality but isn't something you can physically go to in a conventional manner.

Transduality was rejected on the basis of not being inherently paradoxical.

• She is compared to Schrödinger's cat, one of the most well-known examples of a paradox. I am also only looking to apply Nonduality now (which wasn't even a thing when the CRT was created and doesn't require me to prove qualitative superiority.)

Law manipulation was rejected on the Will being hypothesized as not being able to change the laws herself and being a team effort with the assistance of Qliphah and Accelerator.

• One of her aspects is that of the Clonoth Tree itself which provides the world with new laws dictated by humanity. So one could describe it as her embodying the laws embedded into the world.

Votes:
Agree:
Disagree: DontTalkDT
Neutral:

 

[Churronzon]

Bump

 

[RaiserAIM]

It should be Abstract Existence type 2, because she was created from something abstract, not abstract itself.

 

[Churronzon]

not abstract itself.

Well she is definitely abstract and lacks a true physical form(needing to possess a Sister as a "physical terminal"). Furthermore, if she wasn't abstract, she wouldn't qualify for the ability in the first place.

 

[XDragnoir]

I think i agree with everything, but i will take a closer look later.

 

[Churronzon]

The bump

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[XDragnoir]

Transduality (Type 1) Immortality (Type 5), and Immunity to Life/Death Manipulation

I only disagree with immunity here as wee dont use that normally

 

[DontTalkDT]

"Abstract Existence "- I don't think she qualifies as abstract. The will needs to network to exist. The network essentially is what she is made from. And what the network is made from is brainwaves i.e. electromagnetic waves. (and arguably the sisters that produce those waves)
I would hence argue that she is only incorporeal, as she exists as incorporeal waves.

"Transduality (Type 1)" - No. Transduality has to come from a logically paradoxical state. The Will isn't breaking laws to such an extend.

"Immortality (Type 5), and Immunity to Life/Death Manipulation" - Hmmm... I kinda would rather want to list Inorganic Physiology, but then that is for matter beings specifically... I suppose listing it like this is fine.

"Law Manipulation" - I don't think that applies. That was ultimately a team effort of Accelerator, the network and Qliphah. As Accelerator's Platinum Wings are the state he gets from having support of the other two listing it for him works. But neither the Network nor Qliphah can change the laws all on their own nor makes it sense to give them a "with support of Accelerator"-key IMO.

Type 9 Immortality seems too speculative. That could easily be on the same plane still IMO.

I would propose to add a tabber in the Notable A/T section in the sandbox btw. to cleanly separate Will of the Network stuff from other Sister stuff.

 

[Churronzon]

"Abstract Existence "- I don't think she qualifies as abstract. The will needs to network to exist. The network essentially is what she is made from. And what the network is made from is brainwaves i.e. electromagnetic waves. (and arguably the sisters that produce those waves)
I would hence argue that she is only incorporeal, as she exists as incorporeal waves.

Being created from the brainwave network gathering the aggregated consciousnesses doesn't mean she isn't abstract. After all, the brainwave network created the metaphysical structure, Clonoth. So saying that the Will isn't abstract is tantamount to saying the Clonoth isn't a metaphysical structure.

It can't get any more blatant that her existence being defined by her full name, repeatedly. She's the Will of the Whole Misaka Network; she isn't the network itself. She fills and floats around in it.

“Normally, ‘Misaka’ fills the network but leaves the means of external interference to the
individual units /return. So don’t expect me to be much of a conversationalist /return.
Think of this as being like an email /return. Just so you know, I will simply finish what I
am saying even if you ask questions /return.”

This was something from within the Misaka Network.

This was something superior even to Last Order who was the command tower.

No one should have been higher than Last Order on the system.

The #1 began to suspect this was related to the Third Season project Misaka Worst had
come from, but then a different possibility came to him. Despite being warned she
would give no response, he spoke through clenched teeth.

“Are you the will of the whole of the Misaka Network!?”

This was something created by Academy City yet different from both the angel-like
being and Aiwass.

This was something he was unsure could be called human.

Perhaps it should be called the “third existence”.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 06 Epilogue

More specifically, she's the will created by the aggregated consciousnesses and egos of 20,001 Sisters.

It seems like Misaka Network is also referred to as more than just brainwaves and as something metaphysical itself as well.
For example, I posted this already in my OP, but Qliphah perceives the Misaka Network as being the Clonoth Tree that overlaps the surface world. Someone like Misaka Mikoto would only see the network as EM waves however.

What did it mean for Qliphah Puzzle 545 to have sensed that?

This was what it meant:

“You have contacted Misaka through Accelerator’s body /return. He might not even be
aware of this access point /return. Welcome to the Misaka Network, guest user /return.
Now, Misaka doesn’t want you jumping to conclusions and making any
misunderstandings, so keep in mind that the Misakas as a whole are on Team Kamijou-
chan /return. ...However /backspace, it honestly pisses Misaka off to see someone else
manipulating that damn idiot /return. Only Misaka gets to criticize that criminal /return.
Don’t shove the victims aside and force him on the thorny path of your choosing /return!!”

[...]

Something supposedly invisible spread out from Qliphah Puzzle 545 in all directions.

She may have seen it in the form she did because she was a demon.

Someone else might have seen it as something else.

Regardless, this is what the translucent girl saw.

“Ten and twenty-two?”

She gulped.

Qliphah Puzzle 545 gasped when she saw this overlapping the surface world.

“Those combine to thirty-two, but thirty-one and thirty-two are duplicates. This is the
single path shown by the seventy-eight cards. But it’s far too different from the tarot I’m
familiar with!”

“I don’t know how you see it /return. The Misakas are simply here as ourselves /return.
We are all with him at all times and in all places /return. Process this is in whatever form
is simplest for you /return. As the Will of the Misakas, I authorize this remote operation
and grant you authority here /return. Use all the power here as you see fit and protect
what it is what you want to protect /return!!”

[...]

“I am a demon without a place in any of the ten spheres.”

Qliphah Puzzle 545 could clearly sense it now.

In her own way, she could sense the invisible field of power and the linked data entity that
covered the world.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 11

Why do you think the Will can't make frequent appearances? She just sucks at possessing Sisters?

“I’m saying it’s mature of you to be able to think about it like that /return.” The Will waved
her index finger a bit. “I was really, really worried about Kamijou-chan, but he should be
fine now /return. And since I’ve been using this ticket so much lately, I probably can’t
come back out for a while /return. But /backspace, I did get to see something nice
firsthand /return.”

“How long until the next time?”

“Don’t rely on me /return.” The Will chuckled. “This world belongs to all of you /return.
As someone who floats around the Misaka Network with no physical body, I’m an outsider
here /return. I may be able to give some outside advice, but I mustn’t be presumptuous
enough to think about actually joining in /return.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 10 Chapter 1 Part 6

The Misaka Network is again considered more than just simple brainwaves since it's impossible for it to have survived Othinus reality warping the world billions of times, especially since brainwaves are reliant on the Sisters being alive in the first place.

“But still,” muttered fifteen centimeter Othinus. “Through all of those hundreds of billions
of phases, I missed the Misaka Network that manipulated the border between life and
death.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 12 Chapter 3 Part 2

A supernatural contract with a demon also created a backdoor with the supposedly purely scientific brainwaves.

“Curse that unfaithful guy /return. This kind of connection is supposed to be illegal, you
know /escape? Leave it to a villain to make some kind of weird contract that opens a back
door Misaka wasn’t aware of /return. It looks like he’s been messing with the electrode on
his own, but Misaka feels like she can’t trust any of those modifications /return. Misaka
isn’t so sure he’s really learned his lesson /return.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 11

"Transduality (Type 1)" - No. Transduality has to come from a logically paradoxical state. The Will isn't breaking laws to such an extend.

"Alive while dead" and "dead while alive" is logically paradoxical. She breaks the laws on a scale that even High 1-C entities couldn't accomplish.

I'll go over every single line that describes transduality in its page and compare it to the Will.

• Transduality is the state of being wherein an entity exists independently of, and qualitatively beyond, various dual systems, ranging from very specific, limited sets of dual distinctions to duality itself on a conceptual level.

Due to the Will's state of being, the Will exists independently of and qualitatively beyond Othinus' control over the duality of life and death, of a very specific limited set of dual distinction.

• If the 0 and 1 of binary systems can be considered a duality, a transdual character’s fundamental existence might be definable as being in-between the numbers of 0 and 1, being 0 and 1 at once, being defined as being a “2”, or as not being describable through any numbers at all at the higher levels.

The Will's fundamental existence is definable as being alive(0) and not alive(1) at once.

• Transduality is not simply nonduality, but additionally requires something like qualitative superiority or immunity to attacks bound to the duality in question.

The Will displayed a qualitative superiority and/or immunity to manipulation bound to the duality of life and death over High 1-C Othinus, but I'll reiterate an entirely different reason. The Will transcends the scope of the Four Worlds, which was already outside the jurisdiction of the Magic Gods.

• A duality refers to a logical duality for the purpose of this ability. That is to say, that the duality in question can be decribed as "A" and "not A" where A is some object or attribute. So, for example, fire and water are not a duality. The duality of fire would be fire and not fire. The duality of existence would be existence and not existence, which could equivalently be formulated as existence and nonexistence or existence and void.

Life and death is a logical duality. That is to say, that the duality in question is described as alive while dead and dead while alive. That is likened to "A" while "not A", and "not A" while "A". The duality of life would be alive and not alive.

• As it stands, Type 1 corresponds to being beyond certain kinds of dual systems, but not all duality.

That's all I'm arguing for; only one certain dual system.

• Type 1 (Specific Transduality): Characters that exist in a nondual state regarding one specific dual system and qualitatively superior or immune to effects caused within it.

The Will of the Whole Misaka Network exists in a nondual state regarding one specific dual system(life and death) and is qualitatively superior or immune to effects caused within it by a High 1-C entity.

"Immortality (Type 5), and Immunity to Life/Death Manipulation" - Hmmm... I kinda would rather want to list Inorganic Physiology, but then that is for matter beings specifically... I suppose listing it like this is fine.

I believe the immunities are still redundant under type 5.

"Law Manipulation" - I don't think that applies. That was ultimately a team effort of Accelerator, the network and Qliphah. As Accelerator's Platinum Wings are the state he gets from having support of the other two listing it for him works. But neither the Network nor Qliphah can change the laws all on their own nor makes it sense to give them a "with support of Accelerator"-key IMO.

The invisible third tree is described as being able to be wielded by the whole. She's the one who grants Accelerator access for example.
We already know aspects and creations of the Misaka Network(such as Clonoth Tree) explicitly exist outside of the material universe and all its phases.

Something else overlapped the world Accelerator could see.

His vision grew dark and the flavor of blood grew stronger.

But he did not care.

If this pain was truly necessary, the white monster would accept it.

His partner had cast out her old self that had hidden behind his back out of fear of
harming everyone. She was now wordlessly telling him that he would be fine with this
much, so he had to live up to her expectations.

He would show her that the strongest could not be broken by this.

What he saw before him was not just another realm crossing over from a different phase.

It was different from the cosmology of microcosm and macrocosm that had been spoken
of for more than two thousand years along with the Sephiroth and Qliphoth.

The Sephiroth was the tree of life which showed how to properly build up a human mind.

By working toward a proper understanding, you could purify your soul and climb the
ranks one at a time. But if you viewed it incorrectly and mistakenly thought you had
already risen to the top, you would lose control of your mind and end up with a negative
result.

The Qliphoth was the evil tree which showed how to create and use the negative side of
the human mind, such as envy and wrath. It normally manipulated people and caused
chaotic destruction, but when used correctly, it could bring positive results such as the art
born of anger.

But this was different.

It was neither of those.

“I am a created demon. I am no more than a small piece of power cut away, but my essence
is that of a guide, just like Coronzon!! My number is the true eleven and its meaning is
‘the stepping stone of wickedness that supports good deeds’. View the hidden barrier not
contained within the ten! I lurk there to block any unnecessary ascent and I offer the
power to cross the Abyss only to the truly qualified!!”

Yes.

It had been with him from the very beginning.

It had been invisible, but it had been there supporting the strongest Level 5’s power.

It branched out into countless individuals, but it could be wielded as a single great whole.

The invisible third tree.

The large data entity constructed by the brains of the military clones linked by EM waves.

“This is a tree made by human hands—a new tree not found in any legends or myths! It is
still a small sapling, but this new mystic power does not rely on the hand of god and
instead provides possibilities controlled by human hands. The artificial tree of Clonoth
carries no good or evil!! I shall become the guide of this young tree. Rejection of the Abyss,
leave us as I become one with my chosen master and cross that line. We shall arrive
beyond Keter! We need not fear the unknown territory that is no more than a series of
zeroes!!”

The tree of life was the positive mind and the wicked tree was the negative mind.

So the artificial tree represented neither of those.

Social media likes added at the click of a button, a fitness gym where the more stoic you
were the more you were praised, stars on a gourmet site, and Academy City where people
were managed by the Level of their power. New value systems had a way of changing the
way people thought. There was a side of the mind that was manipulated by the very
cutting-edge civilization humanity had created for themselves. This tree listed the later
changes to the soul which would never have appeared if humanity had not acquired fire,
forged steel, harnessed steam and oil, and controlled electricity.

“Hmm /return.”

An exasperated voice appeared in his head like a surprise attack.

And this was not Qliphah Puzzle 545.

This was someone else who had been seated in their throne from the very beginning.

“The Misakas are more than just military clones /return. Not only can we approach those
not connected to the Misaka Network /backspace, but now they can also approach us
/return.”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 16

Type 9 Immortality seems too speculative. That could easily be on the same plane still IMO.

She's referred to as being in an unknown place when the physical universe had its contents completely overwritten through reality warping billions of times and stuff like phases and Pure World were already revealed. Additionally, like I stated earlier in this comment, the Misaka Network(which the Will floats around in) is seen as something metaphysical itself which hadn't existed in the surface world until Accelerator embedded it.

I would propose to add a tabber in the Notable A/T section in the sandbox btw. to cleanly separate Will of the Network stuff from other Sister stuff.

Good idea, I've done that. Let me know if it needs other formatting changes.

---

I kinda would rather want to list Inorganic Physiology,

Funny part is I was initially mulling over Nonexistent Physiology over the Will's comparison to Schrödinger's cat, but I realized I don't have enough evidence yet to prove the system that allows Kazakiri, Will(prior to her state of being formed by consciousness and egos), and even Kakine(both due to his disembodied consciousness and materializing elementary particles from nothing) to come into existence.

 

[Churronzon]

It's fine by me if people want to reject my NEP hypothesis due to insufficient evidence, but I want to posit a logic puzzle.

What would happen to the Will if time was once again rewound and the consciousness and egos of the Sisters were never aggregated by the Misaka Network?
Would she disappear into nonexistence or was she always existent but not defined by this data?

By saving all of the clones, Othinus had greatly twisted the Will’s form.

As things were, her very existence would not be erased, but she would change into
“something else” as if the data were being overwritten.

Let's run both scenarios.

If she would, in the practical sense, stop existing, she would then reform from a state of nonexistence if the Sisters' consciousness were once again aggregated by the Misaka Network.

If she wouldn't stop existing, then how long would it mean she has existed as a blank slate of consciousness or as "something else" undefined by anything prior to the creation of the Misaka Network? This would also mean she's not fundamentally reliant on the Misaka Network to exist; only reliant on it to define her.

---

Does NT6 Kakine exist right now? If not, does he have a chance of returning from a state of nonexistence if Beetle05 splits too much?

Then again, thoughtlessly splitting himself apart like that presented a risk of the
malicious portion of Kakine Teitoku appearing concentrated in a single independent
piece.

 

[Churronzon]

For those unfamiliar, here's some quotes surrounding Kakine. I'm bringing him up since he acts as a foil to the Misaka Network with their disembodied consciousnesses and will.

For one thing, all of the rhinoceros beetles were strange weapons created by Kakine
Teitoku’s Dark Matter. They had no “core” or “weak point” to speak of and they would
automatically heal any part that was destroyed. The one exception was Rhinoceros
Beetle 05 who had made an “interpretation” that opposed the will of Kakine himself.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 07 Chapter 6 Part 3

According to Beetle 05, each individual unit of the Misaka Network is controlled by one large consciousness.

“The primary consciousness means nothing with Dark Matter. You even used that
characteristic to restrict my actions.”

Yes.

Even now, the key chain-like white rhinoceros beetle in Fremea’s pocket was trembling.

And that was definitely the primary unit among all of the Dark Matter.

And yet...

At the same time...

That giant beetle hovered in the sky while staring at Rensa with its glowing green eyes.

“But that also means I do not particularly need my primary consciousness. Unlike the
Misaka Network, each individual unit is not controlled by one large consciousness and
each individual personality is not given importance either. The more I split apart, the
more my consciousness is split apart into independent minds and they join back
together into a single consciousness when I join back together. If you break a cookie in
two, it still tastes the same and it regains its original form if you place the two pieces
back together.”

This was the exact opposite of the Sisters and the Misaka Network where a problem with
one portion of the network risked affecting all of them.

He could split apart as many times as necessary while retaining a sense of his self and he
could still produce the same stable personality down to the last piece.

“No matter how much I split apart or how much I cut off, I continue to be Kakine
Teitoku. When I detected that Fremea Seivelun was being led here, the almost 50 insect-
sized versions of myself that had split off all decided independently to come here and
search for any danger. And even at that size, cutting a cord is not difficult.”

Then again, thoughtlessly splitting himself apart like that presented a risk of the
malicious portion of Kakine Teitoku appearing concentrated in a single independent
piece.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 07 Chapter 4 Part 7

Quotes when NT6 Kakine disappeared and Beetle 05 took over and that they were fighting portions of the original Kakine's mind.

“Oh, I get it.” Finally, Accelerator spoke as if it did not matter. “I guess it was a part
those infinite possibilities you were talking about. I see, I see... Heh heh, that makes
sense. I find it hard to believe a fragment like that would appear within you, but you did
say it was infinite. Something like that must’ve gotten mixed into that network of yours.”

“What are you... What are you talking about!?”

“It wasn’t me,” replied Accelerator.

His response was the simplest response there was.

“I’d say it was you that stopped you.”

[...]

That was all he could manage any longer as authority over the giant system that was
Kakine Teitoku began to transfer elsewhere, but “the thing he had been” shook off that
restriction and shouted with all of his strength.

For better or for worse, the strength of his will may have been one of the reasons the #2
had been able to climb so high.

His handsome mouth split apart and his entire face opened and closed like a cheap toy.

“Don’t mock meeeeeeee!! Th-this is...This is all mine. I am me!! D-Dark Matter is
produced from my brain...from my Personal Reality. How could that...how could the
power I brought about myself betray me like this!?”

“It no longer matters who was first,” said Accelerator as if he was singing. “What the
flesh-and-blood organs connect to is no longer an issue. You obtained the infinite, so
you broke past the need for that kind of thing, right?”

“...!!”

The throat belonging to that which had been Kakine convulsed.

Mugino finally caught on to what was happening and tension left her shoulders.

“Ha ha. Being too powerful is its own problem, #2. When a network made up of flexibly
replaceable equipment has a portion become isolated from the rest, the isolated portion
becomes a small network of its own. And you have the ability to replace lost body parts
like a planarian. In other words...”

“The one who stopped him is also Kakine Teitoku. ...Or may be it would be better to say
the one who stopped him is now the Kakine Teitoku,” said Accelerator.

[...]

“There had to have been a lot of different things that made up the whole of Kakine
Teitoku. And a lot of those things would normally be invisible due to the great
concentration of the whole. But when the network became isolated, things not normally
seen rose to the surface. Like the gum syrup built up at the bottom of an iced coffee
being scooped out.”

“There would have been the cowardly side of you, the short tempered side of you, the
vain side of you...and the kind side of you. But who would have thought it would be this
form of the #2 that would wrest control away from the rest?”

The desire to protect someone had won out over the desire to kill someone.

The desire to create something had won out over the desire to destroy something.

The desire to stop a fight had won out over the desire to continue a fight.

“I take back what I said,” said Accelerator without hesitation. That was something he did
not often say. “Academy City’s #2 esper power of Dark Matter is one hell of a power. It
was wasted on the likes of you. And it was clearly too much for you to control.”

“Ah...ah...”

“Come to think of it,” added Mugino Shizuri with a puzzled look. “Do we have any proof
that this one was actually the core? The #2’s mind was scattered over the system, and
this one was the closest to the surface. But nothing says what showed itself on the
surface was Kakine Teitoku’s true nature. Weren’t we just battling the very outer layer
of his mind this whole time? Then again, even just that was no easy task, so I guess the
#2 really is no normal person. ...Oh, and make no mistake. I wasn’t complimenting you
when I said that. I was talking about the real one.”

[...]

A portion of the spears broke and the destruction continued in a chain reaction.
Everything that made up the thing that had been Kakine noisily crumbled. Just like a
child grew into an adult and just like an adult grew into a parent, that giant system grew
into something more refined by eliminating the immature portions that remained even
in the core of the personality.

“I...I’m dis...I’m disappearing? I...I am...Academy City’s #2...no, I went beyond that...
Why is this happing...for such a ridiculous reason?”

“There will probably be nothing left to prove you were ever here,” whispered Accelerator.
That someone who was continuing to collapse clearly twitched when he heard that.

“Even if a massive amount of data is left concerning Kakine Teitoku, that data will not
be referring to you.”

Those were his words.

Those were the words the living could pass onto the dead who would disappear from
this world.

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 06 Chapter 7 Part 12

The data concerning the current Kakine Teitoku is not referring to the malicious Kakine that came prior to Beetle. This is similar to how changing the consciousnesses of the Misaka Network would change the data of the Will and would no longer refer to the same Will that Touma met.

In contrast to the Will being made up of a large number of individual Sisters, Kakine's Will and network is split apart from one person into many facets of his personality.

 

[Everything12]

Agree with DontTalkDT besides Immunity to Life/Death. I don't think this is fitting for something like Immunity, especially when Immortality Type 5 is there.

 

[Churronzon]

Thanks for the reply. I expected Transduality to be contentious since you have to prove qualitative superiority, but abstract existence being rejected is surprising to me.

 

[Churronzon]

I'm really confused on how existing as pure Will and the embodiment of consciousnesses is not abstract. Are we indeed denying that the Clonoth is a metaphysical structure since it was also created by the Misaka Network?


How does encompassing the scope of the Four Worlds and being outside Olam Asiyah not dictate qualitative superiority when even the High 1-C Magic Gods of Toaru can't accomplish the same? Transduality being rejected makes it sound like Toaru's Ein Sof would be placed at High 1-C as well.

“But I personally feel that Kamijou-chan and all the other Level 0s need to be
researched, too.” Komoe-sensei alone did not notice that the atmosphere of the room
had changed. “With esper development, a single curriculum should be able to awaken
powers in anyone. Yet there are people in whom powers do not awaken. That must mean
there is still a set of laws there we do not understand and that could be the key that leads
to System.”

“System?”

“That is the term for one who is not a god yet reaches the will of the heavens. Our goal is
something beyond Level 5. We humans do not understand the truth of this world.

However, that makes things simple. If someone who has a status above that of a human
appeared, that person would be able to understand God’s response.”

“...”

Index’s movements stopped.

She recognized what she had just heard. Kabbalah had the concept of the Tree of
Sephirot. It was a diagram with ten levels that divided up the positions of humans,
angels, and God. And on that Tree of Sephirot, the crucial position of God was nowhere
to be found.

Ain Soph Aur, Ain Soph, Ain.

000, 00, 0.

As God’s territory could not be understood by humans and the concept could not be
expressed by humans, it was not shown on the Sephiroth.

However, a religious system had appeared to take advantage of that.

Their doctrine stated that, if humans could not understand, they merely had to gain
bodies that surpassed those of humans.

They claimed that humans were gods in the process of being purified, so they could gain
the bodies of gods and freely use the techniques of God by training themselves. They
were the first mavericks of the Christian Church and they were even considered
dangerous by the Apostle John.

It was known as Gnosticism.

“Ars Magna,” Himegami muttered while touching the large cross at her chest.

The man who had once used alchemy to reach Ars Magna had likely belonged to that
ideology. After all, Ars Magna of alchemy was not the technique of turning lead to gold.
It was the technique of sublimating a human soul that had been dulled like lead into an
angel’s soul that was like gold.

Gnosticism was popular among those who strayed from the proper path in the occult
because it involved usurping the power of God. Regardless of the differences in how they
thought, humans all wanted to reach the same place.

Or...

• Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 03 Chapter 2 Part 8

“This is a tree made by human hands—a new tree not found in any legends or myths! It is
still a small sapling, but this new mystic power does not rely on the hand of god and
instead provides possibilities controlled by human hands. The artificial tree of Clonoth
carries no good or evil!! I shall become the guide of this young tree. Rejection of the Abyss,
leave us as I become one with my chosen master and cross that line. We shall arrive
beyond Keter! We need not fear the unknown territory that is no more than a series of
zeroes!!”

• Shinyaku Toaru Majutsu no Index Volume 22 Chapter 4 Part 16

Also, can I get an answer on downgrading the Magic Gods' Law Manipulation and upgrading the Clonoth Tree in Accelerator's profile? One affects the Four Worlds and the other doesn't.

 

[XDragnoir]

Transduality being rejected makes it sound like Toaru's Ein Sof would be placed at High 1-C as well.

It would, tiering/dimensionality and transduality have nothing to do with each other.

Also, i don't disagree with Will being abstract but if others don't agree, meh. The problem is, Will also isn't the same things as the brainwaves humans and other beings produce, Will is their disembodied consciousness not something inside their brain.

So yeah, give her Incorporeal (is the consciousness of the misaka network) and that's it.

 

[Churronzon]

I'm definitely not conceding these points without any counterarguments being made.

 

[Churronzon]

Bump

 

[Shiraito983]

bump

 

[XDragnoir]

"Abstract Existence "- I don't think she qualifies as abstract. The will needs to network to exist. The network essentially is what she is made from. And what the network is made from is brainwaves i.e. electromagnetic waves. (and arguably the sisters that produce those waves)
I would hence argue that she is only incorporeal, as she exists as incorporeal waves.

It's directly stated the dead sisters are still part of Will. There is no way Will is made of their brain/electromagnetic waves if more than half of them aren't even alive.

"Transduality (Type 1)" - No. Transduality has to come from a logically paradoxical state. The Will isn't breaking laws to such an extend.

It is, to the point it is even compared to Schrodinger's cat and we see it in practice "protecting" Will from the categories a Magic God used to categorize the world. Unless the page for Transduality is hiding some really important criteria this should be enough.

 

[Churronzon]

Bump

 

[Churronzon]

I'll add that Magic Gods can't create new Kabbalistic Trees. EM Brainwaves > Magic Gods.

 

[Churronzon]

Bump

 

[Churronzon]

bababomp

 

[Churronzon]

Bump

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Doggo]

agree

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Doggo]

She should also get possession by possessing the sisters

 

[Churronzon]

It's in the sandbox and I did mention she needs to possess sisters in the original post.

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Churronzon]

Bump

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Churronzon]

Bump

 

[Churronzon]

bump

 

[Doggo]

bruh just tell donttalk to add this