Timelimits in vsdebates

[AllanShadow78]

i have a question. if you are going to ban unlimited time within a form then why do you allow speed equal?

 

[Wokistan]

Speed equal is a necessity for 80% of the matchups here to happen, especially when characters can outspeed one another by several degrees of infinity. A lot of people don't even like it that much, and I personally prefer making matches where speed matters, but its generally tolerated more than it is embraced with open arms. Transformations functioning how they do does not restrict nearly as many matches, and as such we shouldn't just remove a character's weakness for no good reason. Also, with how fast a lot of people are, the time limits often become negligible.

 

[AllanShadow78]

Speed equal is a necessity for 80% of the matchups here to happen, especially when characters can outspeed one another by several degrees of infinity. A lot of people don't even like it that much, and I personally prefer making matches where speed matters, but its generally tolerated more than it is embraced with open arms. Transformations functioning how they do does not restrict nearly as many matches, and as such we shouldn't just remove a character's weakness for no good reason. Also, with how fast a lot of people are, the time limits often become negligible.

for how i see it, speed equal is just the same as limiting a transformation, remember this is a hypotetical battle, we are allowed to make it so said transformations lasts longer and stuff since we are comparing two characters, but speed equal is like saying, goku black doesn't transform, we are limiting the character, not giving/creating a situation where a character is doesn't get stronger or weaker, he can just keep his form/transformation. An example of this is putting escanor in enies lobbies island. he is forever pride mode since there is no night in that island. we aren't limiting him in anyway nor are we giving him an increase in strength, we are creating a situation were his form won't go away.

 

[Wokistan]

We already can restrict transformations if they cause a tier jump. You can just put Escanor there if you want for your battle, just say that. What we are not going to do is arbitrarily remove major weaknesses from characters just because we don't like them.

 

[AllanShadow78]

We already can restrict transformations if they cause a tier jump. You can just put Escanor there if you want for your battle, just say that. What we are not going to do is arbitrarily remove major weaknesses from characters just because we don't like them.

you actually do since less speed=weakness

 

[Wokistan]

You realize speed equal is the exception and not the rule right? And that its here for the reasons I've already stated above? Invoking speed equal isn't a very good way to prove your point.

 

[AllanShadow78]

You realize speed equal is the exception and not the rule right? And that its here for the reasons I've already stated above? Invoking speed equal isn't a very good way to prove your point.

I know it ain't the rule, but my point is that its the only exception, and i don't agree with that. So 80% of the battles need the hypotetical speed equal for them to happen, just like some battles need the hypotetical unlimited time on the forms for them to happen. I'm not saying take away the speed equal, i'm saying, if you're gonna alow it, then allow other things. Cause if he can't keep up with him, then why make the match in the first place? How i see it, is that speed equal was prolly created because someone was salty his fav characters got speedblitz.

 

[Wokistan]

No, its created because almost all battles cannot happen without it. That is not the case with transformations with time limits. Nowhere near as many people are affected, and battles can end very quickly anyways.

 

[AllanShadow78]

No, its created because almost all battles cannot happen without it. That is not the case with transformations with time limits. Nowhere near as many people are affected, and battles can end very quickly anyways.

Then don't make the battle if the character can't keep up. Yeah, i know that most characters wouldn't be affected, thats why i say allow it, since you would only see it every 1 in 100 battles. but i'm not saying "Allow this for everyone" im saying, allow this for characters that need that transformation to fight and have very little time within the transformation. Because luffy can fight for a good amount of time in G4. Just like speed equal is necessary, in a hypotetical scenario it may be necessary to give UT to forms.

 

[Wokistan]

No. Let's put this into perspective. We don't restrict higher dimensional immortality anymore, something that is 100% completely insurmountable to the majority of the characters here. It is completely uncounterable without higher dimensional hax of your own or some esoteric means of killing, and everyone who has this is haxxed to hell anyways. If we don't restrict sometbing like that, which makes many matches entirely unwinnable for one side, why would we restrict your form running out?

 

[Wokistan]

If a character has very little time in a form, that's that. For example, Liliana Vess can briefly amp herself all the eau up to 4-A, a very, very high jump from low 6-B. Issue is, this puts a huge strain on her body and mind, to the point where just doing this means she has to rest for days and she once almost killed herself with it. Her stamina as a 4-A is obviously bad. I don't just get to nullify all that because I want a character I like to be stronger, If I make a match with her 4-A I just have to understand that if she doesn't get a quick kill, she's ******.

 

[AllanShadow78]

if you don't restrict that then why would you equalize speed? cause speed equal=speed restriction. Again my complaint is that, speed equal is the only exception to the rule.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

In the case of most characters with ridiculously short form time limits, aren't they already disgustingly fast, anyway? The time itself doesn't seem to be as much of an issue as it would be for normal people. Still a weakness, but not as much of a glaring one.

 

[Wokistan]

Exceptions are exceptions. 80% of matched was deemed more important than a 110% consistent ruleset. We used to restrict immortality like that too, but not anymore. Speed equalization is the only thing like that we do, and even then not fully, as we allow people to amp their speed. Just as we aren't restricting boons for characters, with the one exception, we can't start restricting weaknesses. Just make the magch around it. For the example I stated above, most of Liliana's fights are over fast due to her being a death magic specialized Planeswalker and all. Hell, most fights IRL are over very fast, someone gets a slight advantage and capitalixes heavily on it for a kill or win, depending on the context. Fights generally aren't as long and drawn out as they appear in fiction, and with the amount of characters who can end things very fast you'll soon see that forms having their weaknesses intact generally doesn't matter much.

 

[AllanShadow78]

@Azathot, what if they aren't fast?

@Wokistan hurray for exceptions when they favor. still i like how you restrict speed but not other stuff that makes a fight pointless, genius

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathot, what if they aren't fast?

Examples of characters who are both slow and have forms with extremely short time limits?

 

[AllanShadow78]

its a hypotetical question.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm pretty sure if a character is both extremely slow and has a ludicrously short time limit, that would be a very much canon weakness to said character, not a disadvantage pushed upon them by the standard assumptions for a battle.

 

[Wokistan]

Yes, because pragmaticism over 100% consistency is bad for some reason.

 

[Wokistan]

It being a hypothetical and you being unable to present examples doesn't help your point.

 

[AllanShadow78]

@azathot, i know its a weakness, thats why im asking, what would you do if the UT is necessary

@Wokistan, its not bad, but its also not good. so a guy has immortality thanks to a connection with a tier 1-A, and he is put into a battle with someone that can't counter that. the fight is just as pointless as a human speed level guy fighting a MFTL+ character

my point is that speed equal shouldn't be the only exception.

 

[Wokistan]

Stomp matches still exist. Your scenario with the 1-A immortality man would just get deemed a stomp. Thing is, it was decided that so few characters have this, that coupled with their other abilities restricting their possible fights anyways, that it's best to unrestrict it and let them use their full repitioure. Speed is just too far reaching of an issue for that, but even now we allow Amps in speed equal matches. If a match is a stomp because the other character can't stay I .theur form long enough, it's just a stomp. Why should we be adding more to what we restrict instead of having speed as the one and only exception?