Okay, I do pardon my response being so long, but this thread has progressed a great deal. I have asked a few of the collegiate level teachers at my school and some of the students at that level to gained a more comprehensive understanding of this subject to make sure I wasn't going in blind. Additionally, I had Band practice so that kind of took away like two hours of my time. I'm going to be more directly quoting to give responses to people like
Yumi-ta and
Antoniofer.
"The point was that, that all void can be different, sure, you can say that "type x voids are those wher ethe character needs infinite speed", but that do not change anything, those places where IS is not a requeriment then simply they wouldn't qualify as such. This is supposed to be accurate, if the stats of a verse depends of how we modify rules (create a rule and then characters sundely have infinite strength, or remove it an sundely they do not have infinite speed), then something must be wrong.
Author not acknowledging gravity (without justification) is "stupidity", authors not being consistent with what they write themself is "stupidity", author making a character being unharmed by being in the sun but in other instance they are harmed by furnace's fires (without justification) is "stupidity"; but now, author not making characters granting IS by doing something in a timeless void, why would they be stupid? by not knowing our rules and standards? That is not a immutable real physical law. That doesn't mean that character aren't allowed the break the physical rules, that happens a lot, being ftl may break the physical laws (although, in other theories it may be different), but going ftl is actually despicted as a speed feat within the verse, being consistent or not is another issue."
True Voids wouldn't be different, they would share the exact same type of properties logically and ideally with how the system works. I'm not sure how you got the idea that the concept of zero time would somehow vary when something like the aging is just further supporting it. No, what you're doing is unironically worse than how you're trying to portray timeless voids. You're trying to apply that every verse is going to have a dumb explanation and assuming that is the reason for almost every case. You can't do that because it's a stupid generalization and would have about as much merit as me saying that every Tier 2 has Space-Time Manipulation just because a good amount of them do. Once again, you might as well be like Unanimous where you're giving anyone who can move in a timeless void passive Logic Manipulation and Reactive Evolution. This isn't a bad conclusion because it's logical in the math and the premise, it's not making unwarranted assumptions about the context.
Yes, it's more directly stupidity in just the fact they aren't acknowledging timeless void properties. It doesn't have to be manifested in our real world for us to just have an idea of how it would work given we know the relation of time. You would be calling the entire site stupid otherwise and all of the research put into this topic by other members like DontTalk. Authors create stuff they don't how it functions all of the time. Demonbane is one of the best examples of this to where it has infinite dimensional planes from the context, but the creator obviously didn't have that sort of understanding. The idea of time is a law, the timeless void, as a hypothetical, stems from that idea and how its relations works. Are you really implying that characters are just breaking the laws of a timeless void and moving at finite speeds? First of all, FTL stuff realistically is only breaking something certain laws like causality, it's not ignoring them in general so that's an association fallacy. Secondly, you're asserting such a baseless assumption of how it would work that it's not backed up by any sort of reasoning.
"You do realize the DeLorean is outright stated to only be 82 miles per hour. But I agree with Sera that moving in a Timeless void isn't Infinite speed by default similar to how Time travel doesn't automatically warrant Immeasurable speed. Plus, characters could have Infinite or Immeasurable travel speed but lack the combat speed on that level." What Sera agreed on was that we wouldn't define it as
automatically consistent. Time Travel and the Immeasurable problem aren't comparable to the idea of how a timeless void would operate. One is the problem to discerning an ability or a speed feat versus the other being on if it's consistent or not when it means the standards. Lacking combat speed and such doesn't change anything because this is about if timeless voids can give you Infinite speed PERIOD.
"Speed is defined as the amount of distance crossed per time passed. That's why all speed measurements are read like "meters per second" or "kilometers per hour". Why are you measuring speed in a literal timeless place of arbitrary if not nonexistent distances? Division by 0 is not infinity. The result is not even a number.
Depending on how you interpret it, movement in a place without time (and likely no space as well) is indefinable or immeasurable in the literal sense. There are no variables. It cannot be measured. It is not definable, so what's the deal with you guys trying to define it? You are lying to people."
I would recommend not saying that we are "lying to people". This would imply that there is some sort of purposeful intent to mislead people on something you're declaring a falsehood when it could just be a misunderstanding or misrepresentation? This goes for the comment where Sera mentioned this as well, nobody is "lying" here so that's poor word choice.
Anyway,
this is only half true, meaning partially correct. If you're looking at it from an algebraic perspective, you would be right that 1/0 isn't infinity, it would be undefined. You would need a collegiate level of mathemathics to have learned this concept though, but what you are saying is completely false when using Calculus. The idea I'm talking about is called a limit. Pulling directly from
Khan Academy and
Socratic, you can have 1/0=infinity. As you do the function of 1/x=y,
the function continually yields larger results for a "y" value in correlation with the smaller increments you go for the "x" value. And as we explained earlier, your theoretical yield for zero movement already should dwarf finite movement because it's physically impossible to replicate with any sort of finite speed. Want to be an Invisible Dragon and "Ran for about 8888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888777777777777777777778 light years in 0.00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001 seconds in the Universe"? Nice speed feat, but
your speed is still quantifiable.
Do you know why division by zero is called undefined? It's because division in of itself is a function meant to express practical splitting into equally small parts. If there are 8 slices of pizza, but I want pizza a large amount along with Jake, Shelley, and Winston (4 people overall), we do 8/4=2. This is pretty straightforward. However, what if you want to split with 0 people? Well it doesn't make sense in terms of the equation. Multiplying by zero doesn't make since either because 8*0 means we're not multiplying at all, hence zero. We can't make the equation work algebraically because the system just can't give us what it wants as a logical function. Undefined is the result as it cannot be expressed or solved in the system. I'd like to note that Algebra similarly can't express an infinite expression as well. So when we come to this point, all that means is that Alegbra cannot provide the answer that Calculus can. Your conclusion that it wouldn't be infinite because of that is automatically debunked when you consider this and unusable unless you prefer a broken system over something that can give us the idea of the expression and that would actually make timeless void feats unquantifiable despite the constant explanations showing why they are.
Also, I agree with the idea that obviously not moving any distance isn't able to be used for the feat, but that's not under every circumstance universally (meaning you can't use that to invalidate every single example). I'm sorry I made a legitimate text wall for this one person's response, but the points are the exact same thing as what was made by others like Unanimous and Tsar, when I covered this but it somehow didn't go through and got ignored. Hopefully this actually breaks down the idea for threadgoers. This also applies to what Pritti said as well @Sera because Yumi and Pritti were both ignorant to this circumstance.
"What needs to happen basically is infinite speed specifies the importance of distance rather than time. Crossing an infinite distance in record time. Traveling voids only grant infinite speed if it's infinite in distance. Nonexistent time is undefinable as explained many times by now. True timeless void feats (the real ones, btw) might get bumped to immeasurable since movement that transcends history is a superior feat to movement across history (and the latter is immeasurable already), anyone who's ever crossed a High 3-A+ space through travel speed would get infinite speed, etc."
I don't agree with this at all. Distance and time are both important variables when it comes to speed, which I've basically described entirely above how the lack of time passage would contribute to the rating. At that point, being a timeless void is completely irrelevant because you're just trying to change it to being infinite in size which would apply for ANY realm. The only thing that would even be unique you're offering up is the idea it might be Immeasurable at the absolute peak. It should be how we originally agreed on the topic, which was that it can be used as infinite speed feat, but we need to actually evaluate how consistent it is.
This is just to address some of the other claims as well:
"A place without time isn't zero time, it's undefinable which means we don't use t as zero for the speed equation"
This is blatantly wrong for the most obvious of reasons. Using
Merriam Webster, zero is defined as, "the arithmetical symbol 0 or 0╠© denoting the absence of all magnitude or quantity". If there isn't any sort of quantity of time passing or existing, the value would be zero as it means
the timeframe for something to happen doesn't exist. It being "undefinable" is incorrect as the value would just be a nonexistent value, which is what zero is which is literally nothing. I'm not sure how this idea even came to fruition.
"Infinite speed is always applied even if it's not consistent"
This is NOT an issue for timeless voids specifically, that's a problem with how people are trying to apply something that was never the way it is. The feat itself would be guaranteed infinite under the certain circumstances, but the way people are applying it for its consistency is a different topic. The system never claimed it, the people are just saying it did.
This is my last comment for today. I'm going to sleep and I'm going to hope we're not going to have to repeat the same point for the gazillionth time.
