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Timeless Voids Standards Issues (Staff only)

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It went through BECAUSE of how those variables intrinsically work. I think I've exhausted multiple people on this thread by repeating this and it's mostly because we keep having to answer this exact same question. In a timeless void, everything you do is being done with no time passage. If you require a finite speed to do an action, simply put, you wouldn't be able to move in a true timeless void. Your actions require time to exist for them to happen while a character who can move and act in a timeless void can act without it limiting them for a timeframe. So yes, said environment would be viable in assessing speed because it basically shows whether or not your actions can be done in a speed that is literally instantaneous which is one of the other descriptions for infinite speed.
 
> True voids are inconsistent in DB.

The Demon Realm, The Crack of Time, Mechikabura's void, and the space outside of time would like to say hello.

Anyway, I strongly agree with Ploz here. I don't know how much simplier he can put it.
 
Problem is that those break what a truly timeless anything would be like.

There is no present, past or future. A timeless void isn't space deluxe in a time stop, it's a place where causuality can't happen because chronological happenings are impossible oxymoron.

The act of moving from one place to another contradicts it being timeless, because even at infinite speed, there is a first and a later, which is time.


I know verses that treat timeless voids properly, but none that actually interact with it in a way to achieve a speed through it. Regardless, you are taking a truly non-existent, timeless place and acting like it's in time stop, which is wrong, and you can't cherry pick the properties of voids you want.
 
Chipping in my approval for yeeting the Timeless Voids page. Pretty sure I've been against such loose standards for Infinite speeds in the past, with the Timeless Voids page being a compromise. Let's end that compromise and do what should have been done from the beginning.
 
I obviously strongly agree with Sera and Pritti, but don't think that getting rid of the timeless voids page is a good idea at all, as it is much better to rewrite it so it clears up any misconceptions instead. Otherwise our members will continue to apply infinite speeds for such cases out of habit and lack of proper information.
 
Also, this is supposed to be a staff only thread, and the staff consensus is to get much stricter standards in this regard. It is probably best if regular members who oppose this change stop responding so we can get something done here.
 
More like that the staff and former staff have more or less agreed here, that this thread isn't supposed to be for regular members in the first place, and that we need to get something done.
 
I don't think we should disallow timeless voids entirely either, as some do in fact warrant infinite speed. There is merit to many aspects of Ploz's argument(s). How we should reword the page though is unclear to me at the moment, unfortunately. I can probably think up something a bit later.

I'll save the Dragon Ball scenario for the cosmology page, since that's coming soon.
 
I believe it was Yumi-tan that once said, the problem isn't the voids themselves, it's the assumption-based rating which we usually don't allow. I definitely agree with her on this, we should only rate speed if it's a speed based feat. Using the DeLorean for an example. It doesn't have immeasurable speed not solely because it clearly isn't that fast normally, but its time traveling aspect is not a speed feat.

In these voids, we need to see or be told of a clear increase in speed or a semblance of instantaneous movement. It'd also be nice if powerscaling wasn't shoved down our throats.

>Timeless being navigates timeless void. Sure he can have infinite speed.

>Regular MFTL dude fights timeless being within the same void. Give him infinite speed too.

This is the issue with void-based speed feats. We need to do the same here as we do with immeasurable. Otherwise Superman and the DeLorean would've gotten immeasurable long ago.
 
> Using the DeLorean for an example. It doesn't have immeasurable speed not solely because it clearly isn't that fast normally, but its time traveling aspect is not a speed feat.

Off-topic, but why wouldn't something like the DeLorean have Immeasurable speed specifically when time-traveling? It's clearly going faster than any finite speed.
 
Sera EX said:
In these voids, we need to see or be told of a clear increase in speed or a semblance of instantaneous movement. It'd also be nice if powerscaling wasn't shoved down our throats.

>Timeless being navigates timeless void. Sure he can have infinite speed.

>Regular MFTL dude fights timeless being within the same void. Give him infinite speed too.

This is the issue with void-based speed feats. We need to do the same here as we do with immeasurable. Otherwise Superman and the DeLorean would've gotten immeasurable long ago.
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This has been pointed out and repeated multiple times Sera. If powerscaling to infinite speed characters creates an issue, that is a problem for the people who are scaling. Not the individual who is given infinite speed in the first place. And at that point, you dicuss whether its consistent enough for the scaling characters to keep the speed. If not, downgrade.

People need to stop ignoring Outliers being a considerable factor in determining the premise for a characters infinite speed. And id still like to comment here as well since my arguments are very aligned with Ploz's (who agrees with my thoughts here) and this effects verses of mine as well.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Let's do it. Remove the page and downgrade every character who's Infinite Speed via moving in Timeless Voids. This was all dumb anyway.
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Yeah, agree, it's fiction, and Infinite speed should be something that must to be consistent, and random void aren't.
 
It seems that most staff users agree with changing our current standards, either by deleting it completely or rewording it; although I'm more with deleting it, DDM's suggestion of adding the note to the speed page seems pretty good, as would work as minor rule.
 
Deleting it prolly won't happen, some re-wording of the new restrictions will be added to the page it seems.
 
A good amount of the people arguing the reasoning have pretty much agreed to keep it being Infinite Speed but revising the standards. I agree with what Sera said though regarding the treatment, and I believe I've said this myself a decent few times as well. The feat itself should be infinite, but you're not going to be automatically ranked as Infinite for having the speed feat. It's similar in principle if we say something like an MFTL+ feat is an outlier because a character was struggling with dodging lightning consistently. Sure the feat is MFTL+, but it's not actually consistent. This should be the mindset of how we approach a timeless void situation imho.

Deleting it also seems incredibly counterproductive, especially when we should be aiming to make the process more refined if there's nothing wrong with the general idea of how it should apply mathematically (basically you'd need to disprove the logic of it being infinite for any sort of deletion to occur). Also, Kukui's judgment on the subject is something I once again agree with here.
 
Most of the arguments is that long ago someone convinced us to rate characters moving in a void as infinite speed in an arbitrary way; yeah, I understand, the time do not pass there, but effects vary, if any people have infinite/immeasurable speed there, but only in contrast to those that are localized outside of it, as for them no time passed, or perhaps passed an eternity, or simply the present hasn't passed at all. Other variations is when time do not flow in a more deep sense, like the people inside do not age.

Timeless voids are not like gravity, physical theories or even philosophical thought, they are simply fantasy, and as fantasy, the author is free to create the scenario where a power is needed to be there: the chosen one, strong heart, existential power, specific threasolds of strength/speed, any could be valid if the author consider it so. So granting specific speed ratings is just based in broken logic, an attemp to mix fantasy with theorical physical rules. I can even suggest that being in a "true void" requiere resistence/immunity to Void Manipulation due the fact that no one should be there (otherwise it wouldn't be called the void), and it would have as much weight as granting infinite speed.
 
I mean, of course it's in stark contrast because that's just how the nature of them works. Can you name an example where they just limit age progression? I'm not sure what point you're exactly trying to make it here. If it's halting your physical aging, that's literally just more support of it being timeless. If that's all it does however and other aspects of time can pass, then it was never a true void by our standards which is what this discussion is mostly around. We don't use Type 1 and Type 2 Voids as infinite speed justification already so it's not super relevant to the discussion.

Yes, I think we all no they are a fictional conception. However, that doesn't mean we can't apply the ideas of logic to them. The concept has a very simple premise of being a place without a presence of time to which we can drive conclusions on properties based on how time functions. If they have something very specific that grants them ability that's no realistic for powerscaling, then we just don't use it. If I'm flying in a ship capable of at flying at MFTL+ speed, that's not going to be applied to my physicality. Authorial intent doesn't take priority as a valid argument to try to contradict the standard or else you could literally apply that logic to how people were trying to downgrade Demonbane to 2-A based off of author statements or upgrading Godzilla to 2-A which have all been shut down. I've not seen anything from you showing why the logic is genuinely broken outside of author stupidity which wouldn't affect the page at all. Also, the explanation provided for why they could move could be accepted depending on how it works because you're trying to lump having a strong heart in there because of KH, but you didn't mention the fact a strong heart in that series amps you physically. PIS also exists for a reason like this btw.
 
This has been pointed out and repeated multiple times Sera. If powerscaling to infinite speed characters creates an issue, that is a problem for the people who are scaling.

That is what I just said :/

Additionally though, any timeless void doesn't warrant infinite speed, some do (few I might add) but not all. As was stated before, it's not the issue of your void being "true" or not. That's part of it, but the lesser aspect of a greater issue. The real issue lies within whether or not it's a speed feat. The character and their feat matters more so than the void.

People need to stop ignoring Outliers being a considerable factor in determining the premise for a characters infinite speed.

You're ignoring their concerns and pulling the "outlier" card. Let's say Character X got a power up, and then timeless void shenanigans happen. There is no infinite speed feat other than navigating a timeless void (this is the logical inconsistency I'm always talking about). Character Y fights X in the same location and defeats them. You are basically arguing that X should get infinite speed and not Y because Y's feat is an outlier. Never mind that Y still will likely scale to X's AP. This is abhorrent logic.

Instead, approach it from another angle. Some primordial being is one thing. Yes, if they naturally have infinite speed, some random MFTL scaling is of course, an outlier. But someone receiving a power up (Dragon Ball much?) and not even showcasing any speed improvement or advantage to their opponent is not a permissible scenario.
 
The point was that, that all void can be different, sure, you can say that "type x voids are those wher ethe character needs infinite speed", but that do not change anything, those places where IS is not a requeriment then simply they wouldn't qualify as such. This is supposed to be accurate, if the stats of a verse depends of how we modify rules (create a rule and then characters sundely have infinite strength, or remove it an sundely they do not have infinite speed), then something must be wrong.

Author not acknowledging gravity (without justification) is "stupidity", authors not being consistent with what they write themself is "stupidity", author making a character being unharmed by being in the sun but in other instance they are harmed by furnace's fires (without justification) is "stupidity"; but now, author not making characters granting IS by doing something in a timeless void, why would they be stupid? by not knowing our rules and standards? That is not a immutable real physical law. That doesn't mean that character aren't allowed the break the physical rules, that happens a lot, being ftl may break the physical laws (although, in other theories it may be different), but going ftl is actually despicted as a speed feat within the verse, being consistent or not is another issue.
 
You do realize the DeLorean is outright stated to only be 82 miles per hour. But I agree with Sera that moving in a Timeless void isn't Infinite speed by default similar to how Time travel doesn't automatically warrant Immeasurable speed. Plus, characters could have Infinite or Immeasurable travel speed but lack the combat speed on that level.
 
I've been needing to talk with Ant about that myself before making a thread on it. Infinite is the only level that's conditioned. The vast majority of infinite speed rankings come from timeless void shenanigans. It seems as if the only way to achieve movement in zero time is to move where there is no time at all. That's bogus tbh. FTL/MFTL and Immeasurable aren't even conditioned like that. You don't '''have''' to travel in space to get FTL and you don't '''have''' to cross time to get immeasurable. Infinite has always been arbitrary. From "moving in stopped time" to "moving in timeless voids". It's always been based on a specific condition or feat rather than a criteria to base various feats on.
 
I agree with Sera that Infinite speed does have arbitrary conditions, though I'm rather concerned about Venom's suggestion and don't think getting rid of it entirely is a good idea.
 
I agree that it's arbitrary but that's mostly in relation to the timeless voids. I have an idea of what Ven will suggest, but I don't think we should remove infinite speed. Considering it'll leave a gap for character that can move across an infinite distance in a finite amount of time, which will give legitimate infinite speed.
 
Speed is defined as the amount of distance crossed per time passed. That's why all speed measurements are read like "meters per second" or "kilometers per hour". Why are you measuring speed in a literal timeless place of arbitrary if not nonexistent distances? Division by 0 is not infinity. The result is not even a number.

Depending on how you interpret it, movement in a place without time (and likely no space as well) is indefinable or immeasurable in the literal sense. There are no variables. It cannot be measured. It is not definable, so what's the deal with you guys trying to define it? You are lying to people.
 
Why are you measuring speed in a literal timeless place of arbitrary if not nonexistent distances? Division by 0 is not infinity. The result is not even a number.

The distance is likely unknown as well (or arbitrarily "endless") so there's no way to even determine the speed of void movement and as Priti suggested it may even be irrelevant (not to be confused with the rating "irrelevant speed").
 
'''Infinite''' speed would be moving infinite distances within a finite amount of time or performing and '''Infinite''' amount of actions within a finite amount of time. And it can also mean "Moving/fighting faster than time can flow". Moving within a place where time is non existent isn't even a definable speed feat.
 
I would like the Timeless Voids Standards page to be rewritten according to Sera's concerns, along with stating that only voids that are stated to require infinite speed to move in should be accepted. We preferably shouldn't impose our own exaggerated standards on the different mechanics of different settings in this case.
 
At school atm and i want to reply to some of whats Seras saying in more detail later, but I just want to point something out so that no one gets the wrong idea.

Yeah, agree, it's fiction, and Infinite speed should be something that must to be consistent, and random void aren't.

Let me make myself clear. For what I bolded out, I dont want anyone here getting the wrong idea. Consistency is always important and required, no matter what. While i disagree with removing timeles void feats, I quite obviously agree that if infinite speed feats are not consistent for characters in question, they absolutely shouldnt get infinite speed.

Im not supporting random void feats being a means for an upgrade. I only support them so long as there is little to no inconsistency coming from it.
 
Give me about a few hours and I'll ''try'' address all of the new responses of the thread that agree with the OP. I was typing up s response to Antoniofer before I had to go for lunch. I have school for the next few hours as well so I won't be able to respond until then. I have some interesting finds/links I can share to help express the side keeping it as infinite speed.
 
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