• This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.

    For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here.
  • We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.

    Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.

    Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page.
  • Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.

Timeless Voids Standards Issues (Staff only)

Status
Not open for further replies.
That's such an arbitrary requirement that it's nonsensical. You're ideas literally have characters having ludicrous abilities to achieve your points. Please actually bring something that's disputable to the table because we already explained why this notion is wrong, check the last comment.
 
We're really discussing this...again...for the tenth time. As if anything's changed (yeah, right). Seems like we should stop using timeless void feats for speed considering how ridiculously controversial it's been, and dare I say, counterproductive as well.
 
Your logic would literally anyone that enters a timeless void just automatically reactive evos to its qualities and will somehow passively defy logic and do a finite speed feat in there. You're giving literally any character who can move in a timeless void Reactive Evolution and passive Logic Manipulation with this idea so if you want to apply it like that, go ahead.


That's not at all what I was saying. I'm saying that you can't measure speed inside a timeless area because you need time to measure speed. And I'm also saying that if movement were infinite becaue there was no time, then anything that moves inside a timeless void would have infinite speed. Like you can throw a volleyball inside a void and it would be moving at infinite speed. No powerup needed.
 
Sera EX said:
We're really discussing this...again...for the tenth time. As if anything's changed (yeah, right). Seems like we should stop using timeless void feats for speed considering how ridiculously controversial it's been, and dare I say, counterproductive as well.
Click to expand...
Its not even really controversial, it's people massively overcomplicating things and wanting to be super restrictive for no reason besides wanting to downgrade other verses (DB in particular atm).
 
Just for the awareness, I stated in this thread, that either everyone loses their infinite speed rating based on a void feat, or dragon ball gets it's infinite speed rating and that making the void requirements for infinite speed more restrictive was just unfair.
 
I wouldn't say "for no reason". People are fed up with the nonsense. It's ridiculous to assume that "void movement" is infinite speed, on a fundamental level. Should never have been considered in the first place. It literally goes against our standards for these things. It's little different than assuming everything that exists in a dimensionless void is 1-A. It's fallacious.

I don't even care what verses get affected by this personally, since from what I've seen 95% of infinite speed feats are literally "timeless void" feats rather than actually moving in zero time (the actual definition of infinite speed).
 
Moving in timeless voids...literally involves moving to distances in zero time as explained already.
 
I agree with Sera; these threads are ridiculous on how many are constantly being made an revised left and right. I don't mind if characters who lived before time also get downgraded as well. Time stop resistance may be reasonable, but we've been getting to lenient regarding Infinite speed as of late.
 
If you don't care thats up to you Sera, I was just reiterating what was said here. And also like before, im in complete disagreement with removing timeless voids as feats for the same reasons I and several others here have pointed out and argued.
 
Also, I don't care how many times this type of thread gets made. If these past threads have been closed with infinite speed staying, then I don't know why this is being brought up.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
Just for the awareness, I stated in this thread, that either everyone loses their infinite speed rating based on a void feat, or dragon ball gets it's infinite speed rating and that making the void requirements for infinite speed more restrictive was just unfair.
Click to expand...
Unless another argument comes up, DB shouldnt have their infinite speed nuked for these reasons in particular.

So yeah, im obviously disagreeing with making infinite speed anymore stricter than it already is.
 
DatOneWeeb said:
Moving in timeless voids...literally involves moving to distances in zero time as explained already.
Click to expand...
That's like saying if a character is immune to lightning, they can also walk on the surface of the sun unharmed because a lightning bolt is hotter than the sun.

Moving between point A and B in zero seconds is not the same as moving from point A to point B while time doesn't exist.
 
Your point? Do you have any idea how common this scenario is? Should every Low 2-C be given infinite speed since if they nuked the universe they'd clearly be able to move in the timeless void they've just created?

Stop using timeless voids to suggest a character has infinite speed, it's been looking ridiculous for years.
 
Sera EX said:
Your point? Do you have any idea how common this scenario is? Should every Low 2-C be given infinite speed since if they nuked the universe since they'd clearly be able to move in the timeless void they've just created?
Click to expand...
Massive false equivalance since your example is assuming the Low 2-C is unaffected by the environment in particular that is being created. Just because they dont destroy themselves with their Low 2-C attacks doesnt mean they are unaffected by the remains of said attack.

That, and your also assuming the Low 2-C in question isn't someone just scaled to the tier but has actual feats for it.
 
Yes, you still have a t-value which is quite literally zero. You were literally just saying earlier that people can move in timeless voids with finite or infinite speed and it wouldn't matter. I'm saying your logic would literally grant anyone moving in a timeless void that type of ability. I hope you can understand why giving every fictional character passive Reactive Evo and Logic Manip would be dumb because that's the logic being followed essentially, even if you didn't verbally recognize it. A volleyball is an object that is going to be propelled by your force you apply to it so it's naturally going to have a comparabe speed so that's not a problem. I already explained the idea of how finite movement would be illogical in a timeless void and yes, the feat would be infinite. You've still not given a single good reason for why it wouldn't be. The reason we go against it wouldn't be because the feat is flawed in nature, it would be because it might be inconsistent. Those are two completely different things.
 
In the case for timeless voids, you are moving from point A to point B in zero seconds due to time NOT existing. I'm getting tired of having to repeat myself.

Because there's no time (you just said it). Think about it, but not take everything so literally. How can you move in zero time if there's no time? If something a actually moved in 0:00:000 (zero time) it would not be considered "timeless", just unfathomably quick. You cannot have infinite speed in an area where there's no time. That's why it's undefined, not because it's immeasurable in the incomprehensible sense, but because there's literally no time. That"s such a lazy way to determine something have actual infinite speed.

It's also playing the technicalities game to assume the level of nonsense we've adopted here. Not all cases of timeless voids are like this though. Few of the, actually are infinite, but many are just circumstantial and shouldn't be permissible.

It's like how some car gurus explain why certain cars aren't considered the fastest even if they've pulled the fastest speed. It's because of circumstance. If you need the right conditions to reach a certain speed, it's not your regular speed. In this case, if you've only been moving instantly in a place with no measurable time (or even distance for that matter), of course you have infinite speed. Try moving in zero time in a place with time.
 
I'm going to just assert a Devil's Advocate here and let's just say if it did. What would happen as a result of this? Can you explain why it'd be wrong and something we have to take away? All I'm even seeing so far is mostly people just trying to prevent what they deem as inflation as reasoning when that's not valid if the logic is truthful and correct, when that quite literally is inserting a belief for no particularly valid reason.
 
@Ploz

It's not mostly about inflation (that's a minor issue here). It's about broken logic based on technicalities.

Movement in zero time vs. Movement in timeless voids. One is instantaneous while the other is undefinable. The first has all the variables, the second lacks a variable, that being concrete existence of any temporal movement. It's not speed.
 
We've literally explained why this exact same argument is wrong above, but I'll repeat for Blaze's sanity on the thread. It being timeless is quite literally the make or break factor of the realm. I've explained graphically above how constants literally work mathematically. Any finite rate is going to automatically need progressio. Progression is nonexistent in a timeless void because there's no time present. You're telling people to think about it hard when you have ignored this aspect so keenly yourself.

The rate of "0:00:000" is literally a false equivalence. That would be more of a fault of the time tracker you were using than any actual flaw with the argument. If you kept extending those decimals, you're going to find there is clearly a rate at which it is moving at if it is truly finite. However, if it's matching timeless voids in how it should, there would never be any value if you go out infinitely, that literally the point as I showed with one of my other graphic depictions. As for this undefined argument, I explained as well why graphically that when you do 1/x, you approach infinity. The smaller the x value, the higher the speed would get. Limits quite literally express this as you would reach infinity. We've been operating also under the idea of true voids, nobody generalized all voids as being true to these qualities.

You unironically have still just made the case for timeless values being infinite. What you're describing is instantaneous movement, which is that there would be no progression with your movements. Timeless voids are being used as a circumstance to help prove that infinite speed because of how logic works. If I race against a beam of light to match it in speed, is that not a circumstance to prove my speed? Does that mean that feat is now illegitimate because I needed that specific circumstance to help prove it? You would say that there are other ways to prove it just as I would say the same about infinite speed. Your logic here is completely erroneous and being ignorant to establish its points.
 
Within space, all things are defined by their spatial coordinates, this is how we define their presence and location. Something existing in all spatial coordinates at once (physically or otherwise) would be considered "omnipresent", existing in all locations, being present everywhere. Therefore, does a person living in a place with no spatial coordinates have omnipresence? They are technically in all locations, being present everywhere, as there are no definable spatial coordinates to define their position as a singular presence or point of location. If the answer is no, the same should be applied to infinite speed and timeless voids.
 
I agree with Sera, but still think that it is more constructive to rewrite the Timeless Voids Standards page rather than delete it, as we need somewhere convenient to explain our new standards for this, to avoid misunderstandings and false applications of infinite speed in the future.
 
Yes it is, inflation has been the main concern of multiple people here. You can refer to literally most of the comments talking about concerns on character majorities having the speed. Broken logic? You should substantiate such a bold claim before making it wildly.

If we're being realistic, your idea of instantaneous movement would fall exactly under the same category. There is no progression between your actions if they are happening instantly. That would make the t value between your actions zero, enforcing the exact same dilemma you're trying to impose as timeless voids. I've already explained to you and everybody else trying to get rid of the page on this thread why such a basic axiom would equate it to speed. Finite speed movements cannot happen in a timeless void. Infinite speed movements can as they don't require that progression. If you want to remove instantaneous movement while we're at it since it qualifies for the exact same reason, be my quest. You're effectively only leaving the idea of crossing infinite distance in finite time as the only way to have infinite speed. I think I've clearly expressed my piece, now I ask you bring the evidence and logic to actually address these qualms.
 
One alternative would just be to add a paragraph in the speed section mentioning that moving in a timeless void isn't considered Infinite but if the details are long enough, we can replace the page with that instead of deleting it.
 
I can't do this crap all day. Look, technically speaking (as I've said), movement in a timeless void is infinite speed under the notion of literal zero time, this is what's erroneous though. It's not the same as instant movement within a framework of time. The definition of infinite speed is "movement in zero time" not "movement without time".
 
Omnipresence entails more than just the spatial aspect, that's not really a good example to apply here. Also, taking from this site's own page, "Omnipresence is the property of being present everywhere, whenever and nowhere at the same time, referring to an unbounded presence." Unless I'm misinterpreting the meaning of the page, the answer would be a yes. Also, can you explain why this analogy correlates? I'm not quite following the logic here.
 
Nor can I do it all day. That's literally why I dipped for awhile because I'm writing a college essay. I'm not exactly having the ability to waste my time away over here too you know. I'm trying to help in the way I see fit because I care about where this ends up. I have stocks in a few verses that could either benefit or lose from this, so I just want to express my viewpoints understandably.

And I will ask you this, what is the difference between the two? Both of them aren't requiring any time passage for their actions. Each of them is instantaneous in their own regard. Movement without time would imply t as being 0 as there can be no progression, therefore, it gives the same results effectively.
 
It's nothing like calc stacking at all. This isn't a refute to the actual topic either, this is just you saying a sentiment that you basically aren't liking how it equates to infinite. We don't insert our beliefs willy nilly into the topic if they can't actually discern what's being said is incorrect.
 
It's nothing like calc stacking at all.


It's much worse. It's conditioned to always be infinite because so long as the void is timeless, it likely has virtually an infinite distance and of course, no sense of time. Anything will be infinite under those parameters, it's conditionally built that way and is why people favor them so much. That's not very practical or impartial for a site claiming to want to be as accurate as possible.


Take a look at any other speed level, including immeasurable and none of them are based on conditions like timeless void-based infinite speed is. For example, FTL requires you to be faster than light, not move in eternal darkness where there can be no light.
 
It realistically isn't worse at all. You have to realize that the standards not only require to meet certain requirements to even be a True Void, but it has to be consistent with your series. There is no problem with the feat automatically being Infinite in speed given it meets the effective criteria. I said earlier that I don't agree a character should get such a rating if they do something like consistenty struggle with bullets. If I do galactic travel in like a few seconds or minutes, that will always be guaranteed to get me MFTL+. It's quite literally the exact same principle, you just have to manage how it's applied. It is practical in the sense that we just keep the timeless void requirements but are selective in reviewing how it applies. Timeless voids are a bit of a weird case. I never said that I didn't find it to be odd, but the idea and how it applies is all logical. You'd need to demonstrate flaws of logic for it to be incorrect.
 
Because people wanted to remove Infinite speed from like every character getting a rating off of this in the other thread. It stemmed from the Kingdom Hearts thread as well.
 
Likely because most aren't consistent with their verses, with very few exceptions.
 
As far as I can see, using moving in a timeless void as a standard for Infinite Speed simply doesn't work.

Like it's been said, Infinite Speed is moving or doing actions in zero time. NOT saying, well there's no time, so of course everything is done in zero time. One is looking at how fast a character moves, the other is a technicality utilizing the variables of the environment the character finds themselves in and using it as evidence.

Honestly, how the heck did that ever get through???
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

GarrixianXD
  • Locked
Infinite speed revision
Replies
10
Views
2K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Theglassman12
  • Locked
Fighting game standards
Replies
29
Views
3K
Theglassman12
Theglassman12
GrathOfLux
Proposal for Site/Forum Image Standards Revision
3 4 5
Replies
175
Views
10K
CloverDragon03
CloverDragon03
H3110l12345I20
  • Locked
Adding Standards for Scaling Real World Animals.
Replies
34
Views
3K
Antvasima
Antvasima
Ar1216789
  • Locked
Some questions about 1-A, Timelines, Conceptual Manip, as well as other stuff
Replies
4
Views
469
Astral_Trinity439
Astral_Trinity439
Back
Top