Tiering System Notice: Human, Athlete, and Street Level Baselines

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I noticed on a Common Feats Reference blog on this wiki that the average punch travels 15 mph.

Quick google searches provide that the average male weight is 197.5 pounds, with his entire arm being 5.7% of the body weight, or 11.2803 pounds. But the kinetic energy of that is 115.035 joules, higher than the 40 joules that's considered the baseline average human here.

So I decided, "maybe I'm doing something wrong, maybe I'm highballing it and I'm not supposed to include the upper arm in a punch." So by only using the forearm and hand, I get a weight to body ratio of 2.52%, 4.98708 pounds.

.... That got me 50.8578 joules.

"... Maybe the speed is wrong? Maybe the guy chose a value too high?"

Nope. A quick google search reveals that the average punch is not 15, but 20 mph.... That makes the lowball 90.4138 joules and the highball 204.507 joules...

Are the baselines for human level, athlete, and street level too low?

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

bump

 

[The_Smashor]

Yeah, probably.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

bump

 

[Joaco0902]

You should contact a Staff Member.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

le third bump

 

[Joaco0902]

Have you contacted one?

 

[Epsilon_R]

I've contacted Celestial Pegasus for you guys

 

[Joaco0902]

Good

 

[Epsilon_R]

He said you need to ask a calc member

 

[Joaco0902]

Here you have the list of calc members:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/VS_Battles_Staff

 

[Therefir]

The values of Human level stats were always arbitrary to me. I mean the only reason why Peak Human is 300 joules and not higher is because people thought it would be weird to have some weapons at Athletic Human level.

However, I have seen some profiles of normal female and they are 10-B, so using the average male to find the baseline can be wrong.

 

[Ugarik]

I'm assuming this is a value from a hook punch.

Well hook is a rotational movement and since human arm is roughly a rod the actual kinetic energy would only be a thind of what you calced. So 38 joules as low end and 68 joules high end

 

[Therefir]

They probably used a hook punch. The jab/cross punch of an amateur boxer has a speed of 8.1/7.7 meters per second according to this, which is slower than the supposedly average punch.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Average male ain't 197.5 lbs for the world. It's for the US. We're a fat country.

Average male weight for the world is 136.4 lbs.

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

I noticed that the 136.4 average is for men and women, actually, not just a male average.

But this is fine to work with.

Even taking these new absolute lows, 2.52% of 136.4 = 3.43728 pounds. Moving that at 7.7 m/s is 46.2202 joules, and that's choosing the minimum possible values.

 

[Ugarik]

That's 3 times less for the rotational movement as I stated above

 

[KingPin0422]

I used the mean mass of 62kg in place of the mean weight of 136.4 pounds, and got ~46.317 J.

So, unless we should actually be using the weight/mass of the entire arm, the 10-B baseline is fine as it is.

 

[Lightbuster30]

@KingPin0422 Well, that depends entirely on if you put your entire arm's weight into it or your just your hand and lower arm.

 

[Ugarik]

Kinetic emergy does not depent on the weight of one's arm and mass always remains constant. But one again punch is an angular movement so not the entire mass of the arm is moving as fast as the first. The velocity is actually much lower near the joint. For this shape KE with the velocity of the fist should be devided by 3

 

[DeathstroketheHedgehog]

Where does this 'division by three' come from?

 

[Ugarik]

rod about the end has the 1/3 fraction. That ratio comes from the integration over the length

 

[Ugarik]

That's moment of inertia formula

 

[Antoniofer]

I believe that values for human levels comes from the their power output, that I remember it to be 80-100 W; of course, this do not means much, as one we start to perform hard tasks their power output increase, iirc up to 1000 W (but don't really remember).

 

[Ugarik]

The result feets into 10-B well enough if you calculate KE properly. Where's no need for any further explanation

 

[Antoniofer]

And this average value, is the average human (with no fighting experience), or the one from the average boxer?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I also always thought that the baselines are way too low since given the weight of average hand being 5% body weight or so it means that humans would only need to punch at 18 mph to get to 10-A, and since the average speed according to this thread is 15 mph, they would easily be 10-B+ if not 10-A with faster punches

 

[Antoniofer]

I mean, doing a little of research, 20 mph is the speed of the boxer's punches, that is already around above average human baseline. What is the current value for boxer's punches AP?

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

I mean, doing a little of research, 20 mph is the speed of the boxer's punches, that is already around above average human baseline. What is the current value for boxer's punches AP?

Boxers shouldn't be baseline 10-A though. There are a lot of other Athletes who can't punch nearly as strong as them since the boxer actually trains to strengthen his punches

 

[Ugarik]

I have already given the explanation but every body keeps ignoring it for some reason.

Anyway, the more accurate way to get mechanical energy of a punch is to measure a pushing force of ones fist and then multiply it by the arm's length. The 1/2mV^2 formula doesn't work here

 

[Antvasima]

@Ugarik

So what should we do here?

 

[Antoniofer]

That would make the energy of the average boxer to be 500-580 J (they usually hit with a strength of 776 pounds of force). In the other hand, that would make it 1/30-1/25 times baseline 9-B, where the same feat that draw that boundary is x2.9 times stronger than the boxer's punch force.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

That would make the energy of the average boxer to be 500-580 J (they usually hit with a strength of 776 pounds of force). In the other hand, that would make it 1/30-1/25 times baseline 9-B, where the same feat that draw that boundary is x2.9 times stronger than the boxer's punch force.

But boxers shouldn't be the baseline for 10-A since they train to punch with more force than most other athletes. They would probably be a higher degree of 10-A or else most Athletes would be 10-B, which kind of contradicts the name of 10-A as "Athlete Level"

 

[Antoniofer]

Never said they were, and according the the method suggested by Ugarik that would fall under 9-C; at the end, Athletic and Street level are just names and clasifications made by us, can easily be altered if it suits us better.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

So what is the new 10-A baseline? And you mean that Boxers will be 9-C now?

 

[Antoniofer]

Not even sure what they were before, from 10-B to baseline 9-B are realistic levels, changing from average, to in shape to in shape that have proficiency.

 

[Gilad_Hyperstar]

Not even sure what they were before, from 10-B to baseline 9-B are realistic levels, changing from average, to in shape to in shape that have proficiency.

What do you mean by that? Dudn't really understand you here

 

[Antoniofer]

In short, I simply don't known in what level the boxers fall in, but I think currently baseline 9-C or a little higher.

 

[Ugarik]

Current tier 10 borders are fairly accurate so nothing should be changed. And honestly I wouldn't consider it a big deal even if they where not

 

[Antvasima]

@Ugarik

Okay.

@All staff members

Is it fine if we close this thread then?