Tier 9-A Partners in Crime Tournament; Round 1 Match 7: Kamen Rider Shadow Moon and Kamen Rider Black Sun VS Berdly and The Queen (6-6-3)

[RandomGuy2345]

Imagine Ki-Go meeting the rider duo again lol

Ki-Go gotta deal with A-Town Down Under.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Ki-Go gotta deal with A-Town Down Under.

I was just meaning a hypothetical situation man. Just saying. Looking forward to that match btw.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Imagine Ki-Go meeting the rider duo again lol

 

[Shadowslash125]

Only if I win here lol, and I'm still in a vote disadvantage.

 

[Jamesthetaker]

Put me down for Incon as well. Both sides' arguments are pretty even, so I am not sure which to lean to.

 

[Shadowslash125]

5-6-2 now.

 

[BERRIES555]

Put me down for the Rider guys

Also, just saying, y’all are crazy for debating this long. I’d probably give up half way through lmao

 

[Shadowslash125]

Votes are now 6-6-2

 

[TheGatememer]

Imagine Ki-Go meeting the rider duo again lol

 

[RandomGuy2345]

We need one more vote for either side to start grace period (for incon ofc).

 

[ZeedKZ]

Inconclusive for @Jamesthetaker reasonings.

 

[Imaginym]

The gameplay videos shows me the danmakus have just the amount of space required to dodge through it.

There's a small (Lol) misunderstanding here, & I think something said here earlier bares repeating:

They are not as small as a SOUL, and not meant for the kind of dodging that the game makes Kris able to accomplish.

That.

Deltarune: Lightners Range

vsbattles.fandom.com

"SOUL Height = 37.37 cm (The SOUL is bigger in the Dark World)"

A SOUL is over 4 & a half times smaller by height than most average men, who'd be around 170 cm, if not more.

Ergo, when you look at what happens in the bullet board, & go by that, it should be noted the leeway isn't that much; The gaps between the attacks are only around 22% of a person's height.

Do the Kamen Riders have Acrobatics so as to drastically reposition their bodies mid-air?
AFAIK, a typical person's body cannot fit through gaps that size without notable re-angling.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Btw why is there three incon votes, I only remember two people voting.

 

[ZeedKZ]

My vote is not even two posts above yours.

 

[Shadowslash125]

I am so blind

 

[Shadowslash125]

"SOUL Height = 37.37 cm (The SOUL is bigger in the Dark World)"

A SOUL is over 4 & a half times smaller by height than most average men, who'd be around 170 cm, if not more.

Ergo, when you look at what happens in the bullet board, & go by that, it should be noted the leeway isn't that much; The gaps between the attacks are only around 22% of a person's height.

Do the Kamen Riders have Acrobatics so as to drastically reposition their bodies mid-air?
AFAIK, a typical person's body cannot fit through gaps that size without notable re-angling.

They actually do, but it's not in the profile and their addition is awaiting a CRT (but it's agreed on).

However, the location of the place also aids in their evasion of the danmaku. Since they're fighting in a dump and not a bloody dumpster, there will be much space for manoeuvrability, making things easier to dodge. Secondly, there's going to be a plethora of items there that they can use to shield themselves from the danmakus in addition to their dodging, so they can stay in the battle longer, though those are all one-time uses. Shadow Moon's TK can use bigger objects to shield themselves even better.
Thirdly, their blades will help tremendously in deflecting and blocking against the danmaku too.



Their blades can swing at an arc (duh), thereby deflecting the lines of danmaku they come across as they cross the gap.
We also keep forgetting that Queen and Berdly can also becoming Shadow Moon's shields for their danmaku via TK.

 

[DrGreyman]

They actually do, but it's not in the profile and their addition is awaiting a CRT (but it's agreed on).

However, the location of the place also aids in their evasion of the danmaku. Since they're fighting in a dump and not a bloody dumpster, there will be much space for manoeuvrability, making things easier to dodge. Secondly, there's going to be a plethora of items there that they can use to shield themselves from the danmakus in addition to their dodging, so they can stay in the battle longer, though those are all one-time uses. Shadow Moon's TK can use bigger objects to shield themselves even better.
Thirdly, their blades will help tremendously in deflecting and blocking against the danmaku too.



Their blades can swing at an arc (duh), thereby deflecting the lines of danmaku they come across as they cross the gap.
We also keep forgetting that Queen and Berdly can also becoming Shadow Moon's shields for their danmaku via TK.

respectfully
that man stood still against a couple wind gusts, swung his blade once, and got hit twice. then he ran up to a stationary target and hit them once
that doesn't really help your case lol
and again, most of queen and berdly's attacks don't come in waves or lines like what you just said, they come in steady streams shotgunning across the battlefield. they'd have to be raiden to make that many slashes over and over again in quick succession

 

[Shadowslash125]

respectfully
that man stood still against a couple wind gusts, swung his blade once, and got hit twice. then he ran up to a stationary target and hit them once
that doesn't really help your case lol

For further context, this is Shadow Moon in his Kaijin Form. Fair enough that him in this key will get hit like that. But we're using the Kamen Rider Shadow Moon key, so again he's not going to stand there like an idiot and take that like a champ. I'm just showcasing that Shadow Moon can do this, obviously this isn't the only thing he can do at this point.

and again, most of queen and berdly's attacks don't come in waves or lines like what you just said, they come in steady streams shotgunning across the battlefield. they'd have to be raiden to make that many slashes over and over again in quick succession

Steady streams that have patterns. Again, their danmaku are neither Sans Level not Touhou Project levels, meaning that they can overcome this obstacle well. That's why I've been here for 4 pages talking about this. If it were anything along that line, I would've voted or surrendered a long time ago.

And that's just one method to deal with danmaku, they still have a few more ways of dealing with it. They do not need to go raiden level for this level of danmaku.
So this danmaku is going to happen all the time, even if Queen and Berdly are being attacked? What's stopping Shadow Moon from using one or both of them as shields for defending against their danmaku. 2 seconds tops and they'll already be in TK range. Hell, he can even pull her chair away to use it as a shield too, removing her flight and having a good cover against danmaku.

Because Undertale/Deltarune's danmaku level is NOT LIKE THIS, there's definitely no reason why Black Sun and Shadowmoon cannot have a fighting chance in this matchup with the abilities and capabilities they bring.

 

[RandomGuy2345]

We still need one more vote...

 

[DrGreyman]

We still need one more vote...

have i voted yet
cus if it's just going to go to incon then it doesn't really matter which side gets the vote right?

 

[DimeUhDozen]

have i voted yet
cus if it's just going to go to incon then it doesn't really matter which side gets the vote right?

You haven’t, yeah.

 

[DrGreyman]

i hereby vote for the people i have been arguing for
and bring this slog to a close

 

[Imaginym]

Pardon my late participation, please, but....
Further concern comes to mind:

There's been a fair amount of evidence showing that the KRs are willing to tank attacks to try & initiate their TK, or to charge in.

Similarly, I'd assume it's not something they'd foresee that their opponents who are sending multiple projectiles are several times stronger than them; Usually, they fight someone comparable.

Ergo, while they have the skill to dodge, if their in-character behaviour doesn't show an inclination to do so, they might not do so.


Another issue is that in the 2 seconds or so where they're approaching (& closing distance wouldn't be easy with Speed Equalized, & Berdly & Queen, as projectile users seeing opponents charging at them, would probably want to back away.) they might not be able to get a grip on TK long enough.

&/or, while they're initiating TK, they get hit with an attack they don't know they need to dodge. Again, they have the skills & senses to know where the attacks are & where they're coming from, but their characterization, from what I've seen, doesn't suggest they do dodge often, & are willing to take hits to try & do hits.

A "take hits to deal hits" mentality here, especially one which could be presented by such supposedly bloodlusted-against-nonhumans characters as these does not trade well when only a few hits from your opponents can leave you injured & possibly performing worse, even if they probably have fought well with injuries.

Part of the issue, even if they do try to dodge, is many of the gaps are likely going to be covered by intersecting Danmaku.
There's much less room for error than there would be againast Queen or Berdly individually, & again, a SOUL-sized gap is less than 40 cm.

 

[Shadowslash125]

Do not.
Do not make me write a long post like this.

I am holding everything I can not to defend myself and let this be over with.

Edit: Fe-ck it, I'm doing it.

 

[DimeUhDozen]

Yeah, the Riders dodging argument has been kind of wanked imo. Just because you can sense something doesn’t mean you’ll automatically be able to dodge it. Case in point the hundreds of times Spider-Man has gotten his shit rocked despite seeing the attack coming via Spider Sense.