Tier 4 revisions

[Kepekley23]

Our GBE of the Sun comes from the book An Introduction to the Study of Stellar Structure. Here's the book, the information is on page 52 (57 on PDF due to counting introductory stuff), equations 90-92, but more have relevant information.

I'm looking at page 57 and equations 90-92 right now. Not seeing the info.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

@Ant

Aside from brown dwarves, no dwarf falls into the "Dwarf Star" category. Honestly, I think the bounds for Star need to lower to compensate for the new GBE of the Sun, and Low 4-C to take the place of High 5-A, removing the "dwarf" accolade entirely.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I'm confused too, but that's where Wikipedia sources the GBE and we use the same exact one. Theirs another book that apparently comes up with the same value. I'll see what I can find.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I think this is just bad citation by Wikipedia.

Since the "more accurate formula" used on the Earth was within 4 decimals of our version, why would ours be 25 times less accurate when calculation specifically the Sun?

 

[Executor_N0]

As I said in another discussion I already looked in both books and the information was not in either.

 

[Kepekley23]

Executor N0 checked both books and he told us the GBE values aren't present in either. The fact that we hadn't luck with the first book tells us his analysis is probably accurate.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

I think this is just bad citation by Wikipedia.

I'll look for other sources. The value has to come from somewhere.

Anywho. I think they were citing the formula, not the books. I say that because Astrophysical Formulae uses the formula but doesn't calculate a value with it.

 

[Kepekley23]

We have redone the calculation with all formulas. All are pretty much within decimals of each other. Overall, it seems like Wikipedia messed up big time.

By the way, I hate to say this, but I have to bring up the fact that DontTalk admitted to already knowing the value was inaccurate for years. He hasn't explained why he didn't help fixing it, either.

 

[Executor_N0]

One thing Kep, you said in the discussion that the calculated value was 2.277146e+40 joules, but in fact the correct value is 2.277146e+41 Joules.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Ahh, so that is only about a 3x difference. Changes even less of the tiering system. I'm disappointed in myself I didn't notice that wasn't what I calculated originally. Thanks for catching that, Executor.

 

[Kepekley23]

By the way, I am not speaking against DontTalk as much as questioning his reasoning on that instance.

@Executor N0

Seems like a typo. Thanks for helping spot it.

 

[Overlord775]

so, destroying the sun isn't a star level feat ?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

Well I couldn't find much (mostly bible sites, oddly enough). I found the figure used on Quora and an old physics website, but neither cited sources and may have just been parroting wikipedia.

 

[Kepekley23]

I see. Thanks for the info, Dark.

I'm going to sleep right now, so I will only have the time to continue this discussion tomorrow.

 

[Fllflourine]

so, destroying the sun isn't a star level feat ?

Well if revisions go through as is, we're just moving the baseline for Star level a little further down. With the current AP chart though, Sol's GBE lies in Small Star level, and not Star level, even though the baseline for it is Sol's GBE.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

See you.

@Overlord. I think we're lowering the requirement of 4-C to the revised figure for the GBE.

 

[Joseph619]

This must be fixed, I agree completely

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I completely support this

Although, would this affect characters who are 4-A because of creating starry skies or similar feats? or the space between the stars still warants this level? (in the case of Pocket Dimension Creation feats, only)

 

[Fllflourine]

^ Don't think 4-A will be affected from this revision

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

It would. All the tiers in Tier 4 are based off of Suns GBE. The difference shouldn't make a massive different though given the huge gap in 4-A.

This would also effect the energy required for 3-C, 3-B and observable 3-A, but theirs very few calcs for those tiers in general.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not think that this would significantly affect tier 4-B, 4-A, 3-C, 3-B, or 3-A, given that they were based on calculations for the energy required to create an omnidirectional shockwave or energy discharge of sufficient power to destroy everything within a solar system, two or more solar systems, a galaxy, two or more galaxies, and the known universe, respectively.

It would affect them somewhat though, depending on what type of star that was calculated as being destroyed within such a discharge's path.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

It would. All the tiers in Tier 4 are based off of Suns GBE. The difference shouldn't make a massive different though given the huge gap in 4-A.

This would also effect the energy required for 3-C, 3-B and observable 3-A, but theirs very few calcs for those tiers in general.

Oh man. All of those use the Sun's GBE?

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

@Antvasima

It's an omnidirectional blast that compares the GBE of the sub to the area destroyed. It would affect them and require us to revise the energy requirements, but virtually no one would get a downgrade from it.

 

[Antvasima]

I do not remember if they used the Sun's GBE, or that of another type of star.

Nevertheless, it would probably be best to ask DontTalk to help us out here.

Also, he most likely simply did not want to create an upheaval with our values. He has been of massive help to the development of this wiki in the past, so I don't want us to harshly criticise him.

 

[Antvasima]

@Darkanine

Yes, I am aware. I revised my post while you were writing.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Upheaval is necessary when you are aware of something blatantly wrong. Being beneficial does not remove one from the realm of criticism. If we go down that route we create an echo chamber where progress dies.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, he isn't the type who usually seems to want to rock the boat too much, and he is our most skilled mathematician, so I definitely do not want us to drive him away.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I have asked him to give input here.

 

[Sera_EX]

I am more than willing to help with this revision project, if it happens.

 

[Stefano4444]

So the Dwarf Star level is going to be removed and Small Star level is going to replace that void?

While the energy requirement for be Star level will be change to be just 2.277E+41 of Joules instead of 6.276E+41 of Joules, which isn't that big.

Also, i'm with Ryukama about the names of the tier, they are fine and we should only change the energy requirements.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

This would probably downgrade characters who are High 4-C for creating a dimension with a sun in it, I guess.

That would mean most Zeld and, Digimon (whoo boy) would be downgraded to 4-C. Pretty sure Voltron would be upgraded to 4-C as well, but I need to check the calcs.

I think FF9 would be "upgraded" to Low 4-C as well.

 

[Antvasima]

I have moved this discussion to the staff board, as it is best if we try to calmly work out any potential changes to the tiering system between ourselves without any stress. We definitely shouldn't rush into any sudden changes without any thoroughly evaluated plan of action.

In any case, it is probably best to wait for input from DontTalk.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I am far too overworked to be able to organise such a revision on my own, so I would need competent help to handle it.

 

[ArbitraryNumbers]

Are there any issues with the GBE of a neutron star? Because I've got an entire verse I've been working on that scales to a feat of destroying twelve of them.

 

[Antvasima]

The question is what we should call the tiers instead? Low Star level, Star level, and High Star level?

We also need to work out where to draw the borders for them.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Light Star, Star, and Dense Star maybe?

 

[Antvasima]

That doesn't sound very good to me. My apologies.

 

[Amelia_Lonelyheart]

No offense intended, but "High Star level" doesn't sound good either.

Whatever the name change is gonna be, I can use my Bot to change all the profiles to switch over to the new name to save everyones time, if that's alright with you.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I think that it doesn't sound either good or bad personally, so I can live with it, if nobody comes up with a better option.

I am very cautious with mass-editing scripts, since they can potentially cause enormous damage in a limited time, but if you have experience with using it, and it has never caused any harm, I suppose that it might be alright.

 

[Antvasima]

However, the bot should preferably be given admin rights first, so it can access all pages. Also, has it been authorised by the Fandom staff, so the edits are hidden from view?

 

[AidenBrooks999]

It isn't Better to call it just "Star level" and have it as a big tier like 4-B?