Tier 3-A/Low 2-C Saint Seiya Ap Revisions (Gold Saints, and Scaling)

[Archaron]

@UpgradeMan

You have not refuted me at all, your arguments are weak, inconsistent, you have not firmly shown that you are able to counter what I said, to say that you have refuted does not define reality, the action to refute that does this, and this you have not done yet, it's just playing more inconsistencies and reasons for me to explain the differences, like miracles.

Self-opinion does not count if you are unaware of this concept, normally, anyone knows when it is refuted, and you are just being stubborn and convinced.

 

[Alonik]

I agree with Archaron, and his only argument that was refuted was ikki`s (by me), the others none of them get been debunked.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Weird how I can say the same thing for your guys'es points.

But this is becoming less of a debate, and more about who has better strawmans arguments against the op/proposal, and who can commit the most fallacies against the op/proposal

I been giving good points. Posting full context, scans, links to sources, explaining myself, and the scenes. i recommend anyone new to the thread to read the thread very carefully.

Strawnan - corrupting, misinterpreting, twisting, manipulating the other debaters points. an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

Just want to repeat that I do not have time atm to respond to their other comments due it irl time constraints such as a long work week with long hours.

I probably won't be able to respond until Friday Saturday or Sunday

 

[Alonik]

"Everyong" here in the thread gave various points, context, scans, links sources, and explaning himself, not only you. stop with these false acusation when someone is against your argument, no one did a strawman. Everyone will be appreciated if you do a good argue rather than falsely acuse someone of strawman.

The only one here who's doing something is you, even tried to pull me out of the debate accusing me of dishonest, why you don't even know how to browse in a manga website.

Stop these false accusations, you're very biased.

 

[Archaron]

It's funny that he accuses me of this (strawman), when the guy who lives giving kudos to his arguments said the same thing, I honestly think you guys have become too accustomed to this kind of ease in SS threads, and anything you can go to matthew (to ask for support, or even to say that we have bad intentions) or accuse of falsehood of all kinds those who are against you, but this time, anyone who reads this thread will see that you are only being proud and are still not being able to refute what me and alonik said at all (outside the case of ikki, obviously).

In my view, the only strawman here is you, since you are no longer pointing to my arguments but accusing me of dishonesty.

But here is a respectable environment, and I will maintain my composure, I am still waiting for your arguments that you are supposed to say are refutations.

 

[Leonida85]

I haven't quite seen anything too bad going on, but I was informed that @Leonida85 was being mindly harsh on this thread. It really isn't necessary to accuse people of lying just for stating their own honest opinions. Or to accuse people of acting with malice when there isn't really hard evidence. And the comments like "People like you should be lost instead of found" are also pretty rude nor are they called for.

Please me more polite in the future. Thank you.

Understood.


In topic :

Matthew is right, and I agree with TheUpgradeManHaHaxD and KoolRay

 

[KoolRay]

TheUpgradeManHaHaxD has done very well and spoke in detail refuting, and debunking multiple, if not all, points no matter how minor and borderline nonsensical the points are. While you may not agree with everything he says, to think Upgrade hasn't, or ignoring points, or incapable of refuting the points is simply not living in reality. Not sure how much more there is to say other than I agree with Matt and upgrade.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also agree with Matt and Upgrade.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

So, there's DDM agreeing with UGM?

Matt seems to only agree with Cross-Canon scaling for Saint Seiya

I personally also agree with Cross-Canon scaling, by the way.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well, I personally think Matt has the best sense of judgement regarding the scaling.

 

[Alonik]

That's the same as agreeing that Seiya chapter 1 is 3-A because his body is a "universe", this update to 3-A is nothing more than based misinterpreting over the conception of microcosm.

 

[Diinou_HotHead]

Of course Chapter 1 Seiya has a miniature universe in him.

It's until he unlock the 7th Sense that the miniature universe is truly relevant.

 

[Alonik]

Yes, exactly @Diinou HotHead. So much that Aries Mu explains to the saints that they needed to master the ability to control this little universe, the ability to do so was called seventh sense, when the seventh sense awaken, is nothing more than the saint burning his (micro)-cosmo, to the point to flare and looks like a big bang.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

just want to quickly point out. That the 7th sense being the birth the of the Univese/Big Bang is supported by cross canon scaling as the light novel gives us a clear cut, and dry scan of it with a direct statement that the 7th sense does just that. Which scales to the scene of Seiya Vs Aldebarran whicih is the same thing.. Seiya uses his 7th sense to recreate the birth of the universe (The Big bang) when fighting Aldy. Which then scales to the other 7th sense users. Then there is supporting evidence such as Hyoga breaking free from the Ice Coffin, Shiryu surviving the backlash of a massively far above baseline Tier 3-A/Low 2-C attack. Ikki surpassing Shakas Cosmo. Then it gets supported by Kurumada's drawn visual of "The Universe"

A lot of supporting feats.

Chapter 1 Seiya doesn't have the 7th sense so It isn't the same thing. He hasn't mastered his cosmo. He was a newbie user. Inexperienced

Lastly, it should be apparent were not going to convince each other of anything since we seem to be at an eternal disagreement. Instead, what we should be doing to trying to convince the audience. If that makes sense.

 

[Alonik]

Wrong in all possibilities.

First i'll answer about seiya chapter 1, because that's simply ignoring not only what the manga of saint seiya speak, but also as to the novel itself you passes is being ignored, and it's not being realease the whole context.

The answer to seiya ch. 1 to have 7th sense in this novel is absolute: Yes, he had.

In Ch. 2 of the novel, here of saintseiyapedia itself, it is said;

Chapter 3.5

The cosmos
It is something that it is impossible to understand completely just with words. It is the Seventh Sense.

All humans have in them five senses which are Touch, Sight, Hearing, Taste and Smell in addition to another which one could call the sixth sense. People who are commonly called "psionics" are awakened to this sixth perception which gives them various gifts, some examples of which are precognition or a supernatural intuition. But there is still an additional meaning beyond this. This is called the Seventh Sense.

In mythological times, the era of the great heroes, the separation between humans and the Gods was not as distinct as it is today, and everyone possessed the Seventh Sense, but this fantastic power was lost as and as the human race evolves. Yet even today human beings still carry the Seventh Sense deep within them, at the very source of their existence. It is through the use of this meaning that the Saints are able to exercise superhuman powers, by burning and exploding the energy which is the basis of everything. However, the Seventh Sense, the perception that surpasses the other six, is something that even the greatest sages of Humanity could not explain exactly with words despite extensive research, it is what makes it possible to give birth to a power immeasurable ... He is the Cosmos.

The 7th sense is nothing more than the cosmos itself, and according to this novel, in the ancient time of the gods ALL HUMANS had the 7th sense awakened, and even in nowadays ALL HUMANS have it within their soul, and by that meaning the saints are able to exercise superhuman powers, by burning and exploding the energy which is the basis of everything.

So, yes, it's the same as not only saying that seiya chapter 1 is 3-A, but also the same as saying that every human in the verse has an real sized universe in their souls.

But that's not real, because as i've already shown by WoG, Cosmo is just a micro sized universe, not a real sized universe. And i wouldn't even need to show it, because in any translation of saint seiya in chapter 1 speaks that the body of the human is a microcosm/microuniverse born of the big bang.

1. note: if it comes with the argument "But in chapter 1 is used microcosm with Õ░ÅÕ«çÕ«Ö and not Õ«çÕ«Ö" i've already explained why the author no longer uses "Õ░ÅÕ«çÕ«Ö" completely and uses just "Õ«çÕ«Ö", and is why he just doesn't want that, and you must have to read in the way of his WoG.

Then again, the phrases;

• "Burn my Cosmos!" Shouted Seiya, ready to attack.
• A Big Bang happened. This was the power capable of creating miracles. A person pushing his Cosmos to its climax could awaken to the Seventh Sense and reach a power comparable to the energy which had given birth to the Universe.

It doesn't mean a 3-A energy, just means that seiya was burning his 7th sense, his cosmos, and his universe (micro-sized) get a big explosion, a.k.a big bang.

This is not supported by any feat, because all other feates presented are just wank and forget the main base of the work, like;

Then there is supporting evidence such as Hyoga breaking free from the Ice Coffi

The ice coffin was destroyed by a star level weapon




Weapons coupled to the Libra Cloth, capable of shattering the stars

Shiryu surviving the backlash of a massively far above baseline Tier 3-A/Low 2-C attack

It's an outlier.

Ikki surpassing Shakas Cosmo.

Wrong too, ikki have surpassed base Shaka is just a 4-A feat, baseline shaka is just Multi-Solar System Level, according to our profile.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Virgo_Shaka

And looking profoundly to the profile of both, ikki skipped a tier of energy variation from MSS to Galaxy just by defeating an MSS, it doesn't make sense.

 

[Archaron]

Lastly, it should be apparent were not going to convince each other of anything since we seem to be at an eternal disagreement. Instead, what we should be doing to trying to convince the audience. If that makes sense.

You only disagree with all the arguments contrary to your point of view in the face of the facts that show you are wrong, you are now pulling public opinion to maintain that you are right, and this is naturally a fallacy.

And in this discussion, this is not the first fallacy on the part of those who defend your point of view and agree with you, I sincerely think that your group is too used to debates that do not say the opposite of what you say.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I will be repsonding to this later. Consider this comment a bump, and a reminder

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Libra Weapons being only Star level is completely inconsistent with the real displayed power of the Gold Saints. Even downplaying they would be Galaxy level scaling from the weakest statements for the Galaxian Explosion.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

The Libra Weapons being only Star level is completely inconsistent with the real displayed power of the Gold Saints. Even downplaying they would be Galaxy level scaling from the weakest statements for the Galaxian Explosion.

The libra weapons have consistent tier 3/2 feats, so i agree with you.

Also, we should judge the speaker of such statement because its shun, and then later seiya iirc who says "Smash planets" or "Smash stars" whom should be unreliable regarding the libra weapons.

 

[Alonik]

The weakest statement of the Galaxian Explosion is at best Solar System, not Galaxy level, only in taizen that it reaches likely galaxy level, which was denied a lot here in this post.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The weakest statement of the Galaxian Explosion is at best Solar System, not Galaxy level, only in taizen that it reaches likely galaxy level, which was denied a lot here in this post.

No. Every statement of Galaxian Explosion describes it as destroying galaxies. And there are instances where it's described in multi-galactic and universal levels such as when Defteros and Aspros clash in Lost Canvas.

 

[Dienomite22]

I have never seen a statement about Galaxian Explosion only being solar system level.

 

[Alonik]

This is in other works, GE varies according to each writer.

At the beginning of episode G, Saga says that GE can destroy the milk way, so then it is claimed by another gold that the milk way was destroyed (Yeah, contradictory and meaningless).

And yes, Saga claims that GE is at best Solar System in the manga, and has nothing to do with Galaxy level.



Even Cain's GE that is said to be stronger than Saga's, could just shake the milk way, and not as something that could destroy her.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Way to be completely bias and take statements out of context, Alonik. They constantly explain that the Galaxian Explosion is equivalent to an exploding galaxy in power and reference other techniques that have the same potency.

And way to take the Saga statement out of context. Other translations just outright say that it destroys the galaxy, regardless Saga is talking about destroying every planet and star in the galaxy in one fell explosion, not individually and then adding each GBE up. Don't be ridiculous.

 

[Sage_God_Slayer]

Lmao you do realise the Milky Way is a Galaxy and not a Solar System don't you?

 

[Alonik]

@upgrademan

Thank you so much for posting the scan that says tha Cain's GE can only shake the milk way. I didn't have the trouble to go after her.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

If we were to look at the kanji it should say Úèǵ▓│ [1] Which has 2 meanings. Milky Way, and Galaxy (Which it can also be pluralized as well to mean "Galaxies" using the same kanji"

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@upgrademan
Thank you so much for posting the scan that says tha Cain's GE can only shake the milk way. I didn't have the trouble to go after her.

Certainly you're trolling. Can you read? I assume you can. Because it says that it can make the universe tremble.

 

[Dienomite22]

Alonik. The scan you posted is literally galaxy level GE.

 

[Alonik]

Lmao you do realise the Milky Way is a Galaxy and not a Solar System don't you?

And you understand that destroying a part of something, isn't it tottaly that something, don't you?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And you understand that destroying a part of something, isn't it tottaly that something, don't you?

And you do realize that an explosion that destroys every planet and star in the milky way is galaxy level, don't you?

 

[Archaron]

Certainly you're trolling. Can you read? I assume you can. Because it says that it can make the universe tremble.

And this has already been calculated as the Multi Solar System.

 

[Dienomite22]

Galaxy: a system of millions or billions of stars, together with gas and dust, held together by gravitational attraction.

Milky Way: our Galaxy

Destroying the stars and planets of the Milky Way is Galaxy level.

 

[Alonik]

@Matthew Schroeder and TheUpgradeManHaHaxD

I'mt not trolling. The point is that scan is mistranslated, the is no universe kanji, just galaxy.

And upgrademan, this is only GALAXIES, when is is embedded in that specific sentence, who have a plural kanji.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

And this has already been calculated as the Multi Solar System.

Acutally it depends on context. The calc comes from baseline 3-A the observable universe. My post has the potential to reach into low 2-C useing the AE from Assassins, and the Big Bang/Birth of the Universe/AE of Saint Seiya Omega.

or far above baseline 3-A

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

If you wanted to make sense of this, GE would just have a limited Destructive Capacity (Galaxy level) but a higher Attack Potency (Universe level or whatnot).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

If you wanted to make sense of this, GE would just have a limited Destructive Capacity (Galaxy level) but a higher Attack Potency (Universe level or whatnot).

I been saying that before in my some of my comments.. not recently though..

"An issue with range"

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

"Making the universe tremble" depends on if it's the entire space-time construct or if it's just the matter within it.

 

[Alonik]

And you do realize that an explosion that destroys every planet and star in the milky way is galaxy level, don't you?

Of course, now bring the quote where it says "Destroy EVERY planet and star in the galaxy" and not "Destroy planets and stars in the milk way"

These are two very different sentences, and if don't have any quote for destroy EVERY star and planet of the galaxy, is just NLF.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

"Making the universe tremble" depends on if it's the entire space-time construct or if it's just the matter within it.

it also depends on how far above baseline 3-A the baseline being the Observable universe