The Time Patrol has come to stop the Lord of the Rings | Xeno Trunks vs Sauron | 0-8-0 (GRACE OVAH)

[Brogeefrong]

I've never heard of the Keysword passively removing images from its user's mind. Is there a source on that?

Edit: I know Time Power can do it, but Trunks still needs to conciously use it, which he wouldn't as he'd be consciously on Sauron's side if he'd been awed.

To some degree the Sword has a mind of its own, and the Sword can also recognize and protect it's user

 

[Tyranno223]

To some degree the Sword has a mind of its own, and the Sword can also recognize and protect it's user

Well it can protect them, but Sauron isn't attacking Trunks by his empathic manipulation. It works like this

• Trunks sees Sauron
• Trunks is awed by Sauron's existence, causing him to be unable to make decisions or act outside of Sauron's likings
• This is not the result of an ability or effect of Sauron, simply his very existence and presence. It is the equivalent of someone seeing a beautiful painting and being in awe, unwilling to harm or destroy it, but the effect is simply far greater here.

Essentially Trunks isn't becoming a different person or being attacked, he is simply being literally awed into submission. The Keysword thus has no reason to protect him as he is still himself.

It would be like if Sauron was convincing Trunks to submit to him via brilliant argument, except it's instead by his very presence. For example one of the Elven cynics who went to Valinor went from being the most against the Valar to become the most devout of the Valar upon seeing their restricted forms for the first time. He was still himself, just with a change of mind.

 

[Killerdrone123]

Well it can protect them, but Sauron isn't attacking Trunks by his empathic manipulation. It works like this

• Trunks sees Sauron
• Trunks is awed by Sauron's existence, causing him to be unable to make decisions or act outside of Sauron's likings
• This is not the result of an ability or effect of Sauron, simply his very existence and presence. It is the equivalent of someone seeing a beautiful painting and being in awe, unwilling to harm or destroy it, but the effect is simply far greater here.

Essentially Trunks isn't becoming a different person or being attacked, he is simply being literally awed into submission. The Keysword thus has no reason to protect him as he is still himself.

It would be like if Sauron was convincing Trunks to submit to him via brilliant argument, except it's instead by his very presence. For example one of the Elven cynics who went to Valinor went from being the most against the Valar to become the most devout of the Valar upon seeing their restricted forms for the first time. He was still himself, just with a change of mind.

Does sauron attack those who are under his empathic manipulation influence

 

[Tyranno223]

Does sauron attack those who are under his empathic manipulation influence

Well he'd have no reason to at that point. He didn't attack the Numenoreans he'd dominated for instance, just made them go off and get themselves killed. He'd also be able to read Trunks' mind without Trunks seeing it as a threat at that point meaning he could get Trunks to put the Keysword away if he wanted to kill Trunks.

Even if Trunks resists the empathic manipulation, Sauron's go to attack is literally CM so this might actually be a reverse stomp. Trunks would need to attack Sauron the moment before he begins singing as the effects begin upon the first word, not the ending of the song.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Well shit
Would the match go different if i gave Trunks Prior knowledge?

 

[Tyranno223]

Maybe? It'd help against EM but you still have the fundamental problem of neither Trunks nor the Keysword protecting against CM and that being Sauron's first attack.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Maybe? It'd help against EM but you still have the fundamental problem of neither Trunks nor the Keysword protecting against CM and that being Sauron's first attack.

They wouldnt be safe from that, but any attack from them takes out Saroun

 

[Tyranno223]

They wouldnt be safe from that, but any attack from them takes out Saroun

Yeah, but the difference is that Trunks need to approach Sauron to hit him. Sauron just opens his mouth. I suppose it might be fair in that both can one shot each other, but Sauron's win con seems a lot easier. I guess it does work as a match up then.

Of course, this is assuming Trunks has prior knowledge and isn't instantly KO'd by Sauron's EM.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Yeah, but the difference is that Trunks need to approach Sauron to hit him. Sauron just opens his mouth. I suppose it might be fair in that both can one shot each other, but Sauron's win con seems a lot easier.

Trunks could also snipe Sauron with a Ki blast, but speech activation is probably faster then launching a ki blast

Of course, this is assuming Trunks has prior knowledge and isn't instantly KO'd by Sauron's EM.

Changed op to include it

 

[Tyranno223]

Yeah I guess it's a fair match then. My vote is for Sauron then due to easier win-con, though I'm still iffy on LotR match-ups since the next one is basically revising all individual abilities. Plus the whole mess with R>F and tier 0 revisions.

Edit: Also EM can work on those who can see their spiritual form + possibly just by being near them so Trunks would need to fight without sensing Sauron or being too close.

The Valar (and thus presumably the Greater Maiar) can also use lesser degrees of EM on distant targets to make them feel things like fear of X thing or concept, but this would be an actual attack so Keysword would probably protect there.

 

[Killerdrone123]

If you want you could switch it to cc vegeta he has resistance to empathic manipulation

 

[Brogeefrong]

If you want you could switch it to cc vegeta he has resistance to empathic manipulation

Match would still probably go the same as its who attacks first
althought since there is empathic manip stuff and saiyans resist, Trunks probably either can null it with the keysword or RE it which means he probably doesnt need the prior knowledge anymore lol

After thinking it for a bit im leaning a bit towards incon as Trunks' ki attacks can travel through his Beyond baseline Infinite 5D Multiverse, which could make it so its hand gesture vs speech activation (there may be better wording available for this)

 

[Tyranno223]

After thinking it for a bit im leaning a bit towards incon as Trunks' ki attacks can travel through his Beyond baseline Infinite 5D Multiverse, which could make it so its hand gesture vs speech activation (there may be better wording available for this)

Range doesn't really matter too much when:

1. Standard Battle Format puts them within range of each other.
2. Trunks, if he went out of range, would be unable to sense Sauron or else he would see his spirit and get EM

That being said, it could be useful to theoretically surprise attack Sauron if he got away in time. I still see Sauron's wincon as easier as he just needs to speak while Trunks is in range while Trunks needs to raise his hand and then fire, or get away and then try to attack Sauron from outside his range without sensing his location.

Edit: Sauron's EM is superior to basic EM for record, although I haven't assessed if it's "layered" yet. Lesser Maiar can use their EM to awe and stun people, while it's the Valar and Greater Maiar who can do the "free-will stripping" EM.

 

[G33kedzinx]

Yeah I guess it's a fair match then. My vote is for Sauron then due to easier win-con, though I'm still iffy on LotR match-ups since the next one is basically revising all individual abilities. Plus the whole mess with R>F and tier 0 revisions.

Edit: Also EM can work on those who can see their spiritual form + possibly just by being near them so Trunks would need to fight without sensing Sauron or being too close.

The Valar (and thus presumably the Greater Maiar) can also use lesser degrees of EM on distant targets to make them feel things like fear of X thing or concept, but this would be an actual attack so Keysword would probably protect there.

Im not even certain they’ll end up qualifying for r>f, the requirements have become really strict. At best only elu iluvatar will get upgraded to 1a or possibly higher assuming there’s no ant-ifeat.

 

[Tyranno223]

Im not even certain they’ll end up qualifying for r>f, the requirements have become really strict. At best only elu iluvatar will get upgraded to 1a or possibly higher assuming there’s no ant-ifeat.

The requirements are stricter but they almost definitely qualify. They have no anti-feat, are capable of shaking Eru's plane of existence and beyond, with said plane of existence being the same difference between reality and mythology to Eä. That plus all the authorial difference between them and Eä, it's already pretty much a cinch. It's was already pretty well discussed in the initial Low 1-C revision.

Eru is tier 0 if Ultima's new system goes through (something he's mentioned multiple times).

Edit: This is a topic for the discussion thread anyway, not a versus thread.

 

[Robo432343]

wait
if Eru is being used in vs matches, will characters automatically be under his plot manip?

 

[Tyranno223]

wait
if Eru is being used in vs matches, will characters automatically be under his plot manip?

Right now? Well his profile is even more unfinished than Sauron and co, but yeah. He is literally the author of the Legendarium (role-wise) and all the infinite sub-creations.

But if Ultima's tier 0 changes goes through (which looks like it's being delayed at the very least), all tier 0s would be the same and unusable in versus match ups.

 

[G33kedzinx]

The requirements are stricter but they almost definitely qualify. They have no anti-feat, are capable of shaking Eru's plane of existence and beyond, with said plane of existence being the same difference between reality and mythology to Eä. That plus all the authorial difference between them and Eä, it's already pretty much a cinch. It's was already pretty well discussed in the initial Low 1-C revision.

Eru is tier 0 if Ultima's new system goes through (something he's mentioned multiple times).

Edit: This is a topic for the discussion thread anyway, not a versus thread.

There are anti-feats though, but yh focus on the matchup.

 

[Tyranno223]

There are anti-feats though, but yh focus on the matchup.

Really? The R>F Ainur never interact with anything other than each other and Eru's realm. Eru never enters Eä and only interacts with it as an author. If there's an anti-feat let me know since I'm kinda pushing LotR revisions here.

Edit: Preferably respond on the discussion thread tho.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Range doesn't really matter too much when:

1. Standard Battle Format puts them within range of each other.
2. Trunks, if he went out of range, would be unable to sense Sauron or else he would see his spirit and get EM

My line of thinking is that Trunks' attacks can travel fast enough to cross a 2-A 5D Multiverse, and would probably hit Sauron almost instantly, and the Keysword should be able to null the EM now, since it can null all powers and abilites in DB which would include the EM

Edit: Sauron's EM is superior to basic EM for record, although I haven't assessed if it's "layered" yet. Lesser Maiar can use their EM to awe and stun people, while it's the Valar and Greater Maiar who can do the "free-will stripping" EM.

Layers come from bypassing resistances so probably does not count

 

[Tyranno223]

Layers come from bypassing resistances so probably does not count

Yeah, I haven't yet checked if EM has bypassed resistances, which is why I'm not sure. I know Sauron has fear manipulation which has worked on those that resisted it and such, but I haven't been going over that in detail yet.

 

[Tyranno223]

My line of thinking is that Trunks' attacks can travel fast enough to cross a 2-A 5D Multiverse, and would probably hit Sauron almost instantly, and the Keysword should be able to null the EM now, since it can null all powers and abilites in DB which would include the EM

EM shouldn't be nullified as it isn't the same type of EM as DB like I've argued.

That aside, speed is equalised so Trunks can't be faster. If speed is unequalised, then we're back to a Trunks Stomp.

 

[Brogeefrong]

EM shouldn't be nullified as it isn't the same type of EM as DB like I've argued.

For the DB, it seems to be via smell, like how you would smell something good, could fall in the same catagory as Sauron EM

That aside, speed is equalised so Trunks can't be faster. If speed is unequalised, then we're back to a Trunks Stomp.

then ig null point

 

[Tyranno223]

For the DB, it seems to be via smell, like how you would smell something good, could fall in the same catagory as Sauron EM

It's smell, not visuals or presence. It's similar but not the same really.

Sauron is visually and spiritually (or spiritually visually which is a mouthfull) awing Trunks.

 

[Brogeefrong]

It's smell, not visuals or presence. It's similar but not the same really.

Sauron is visually and spiritually awing Trunks.

But both still fall under influcing peoples emotions to make their opponent not attack them
Might open a question thread to ask about it

 

[Tyranno223]

But both still fall under influcing peoples emotions to make their opponent not attack them
Might open a question thread to ask about it

Sounds good. It's a bit of a niche ability and not normally as strong as LotR so it's not got as many clear standards.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Welp gonna remove prior knowledge and vote for sauron myself

 

[NaturalDestroyer]

Sauron FRA (at least until the revisions go through and this match gets removed)

 

[Brogeefrong]

when votes

 

[Chanimate]

Sauron FRA

 

[Fezzih_007]

Sauron Fra

 

[Brogeefrong]

bump

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Sauron FRA

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

B>U>M>P

 

[speedster352]

Can’t Trunks at least get the awakened keysword?

 

[Brogeefrong]

Can’t Trunks at least get the awakened keysword?

He has it

 

[speedster352]

He has it

Wouldn’t the passive layered power null protect trunks and remove saurons powers?

 

[Brogeefrong]

Wouldn’t the passive layered power null protect trunks and remove saurons powers?

wouldnt null Sauron's CM

 

[speedster352]

wouldnt null Sauron's CM

Doesn’t time power interacts with abstractions and concepts?

 

[Brogeefrong]

Doesn’t time power interacts with abstractions and concepts?

Abstraction yes, Concepts not anymore