The tiers for Bravely Default's Ouroboros & Undertale's Asriel?

[Kyo_Zero]

Okay just to make sure we're all on the same page with who these are, Ouroboros is the final boss of Bravely Default, and Asriel is the final boss of Undertale, but I'm sure you already knew that.

First off let's talk Ouroboros, the main focus of this thread would be to revise this guy, he's down at at least low 2C, possibly higher, and for a guy who was casually ending timelines, this is something I have to question. I guess that there is some level of dispute over whether or not Ouroboros was destroying realities or not, or at least it's something that's been questioned in the past few months, and having almost finished Bravely Second, I managed to stumble upon a neat line from Anne which can be seen as follows:

https://youtu.be/se_eiqAdL_o?t=518

To get the idea, Ouroboros would have destroyed the celestial realm, for those not up to speed, the celestial realm is OUR universe, not only that, but this line suggests that he's referring to all life existing in the celestial realm, rather than just earth:

https://youtu.be/7zVVUFhw2vg?t=2495

So hopefully this clears up any dispute over his universe busting feats.

Moving on, we have how many worlds he was planning to end, and we can see it was around 10,000:

https://youtu.be/7zVVUFhw2vg?t=1488

Might I add that this isn't exactly him going all out to do so, but rather quite casually:

https://youtu.be/7zVVUFhw2vg?t=1411

With a single tentacle does a world fall, and as you can see, the guy has plenty of tentacles, so who knows how many worlds would end in one attack should he decide to muster all possible strength to do so, probably a lot. In any case, it's safe to assume that without any intervention, he would have gone through all those worlds with little difficulty, considering he's able to also recover from the act of doing so. Ouroboros is only defeated from the total combined strength of the protagonists from these other worlds giving their strength, allowing them to put an end to this eldritch abomination.

So where does Asriel fit into this? Well, let's see, his greatest feat was.... destroying a timeline.... woooo, and he's marked as tier 2A.... Okay I know this is scaled off of Flowey but even then I have to question why he is tier 2A as well, since he isn't exactly destroying universes either, as far as I'm aware saving and reloading a timeline doesn't count as destroying it, and off the top of my head I can't recall any instances in which he did destroy a timeline (The example given on the wiki is that he was able to save over Frisks save file), okay fair enough, even assuming this is creating a new timeline all together, this still isn't a 2A feat unless I'm missing something.

In any case from what I've brought forward, I believe Ouroboros being labelled as low 2C does need revision, though I would rather have open discussions with more experienced people before jumping to conclusions, heck for all intensive purposes everything I've said was just pointless junk that meant nothing.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If Ouroboros was casually destroying multiple timelines, "At least 2-C" seems fine, or if it was a greater number than 100, "2-B".

Asriel isn't 2-A for being stronger than Omega Flowey. He's 2-A for being literally infinitely stronger than Omega Flowey. This would put him at 2-A even if Omega Flowey was only Low 2-C.

Hilariously enough, you are correct that his best actual feat is unimpressive, though. In fact, two characters he's infinitely more powerful than have vastly more impressive feats.

 

[Reppuzan]

As for the Ouroboros thing, he was casually destroying them one at time. According to Ant, he only gets At least 2-C if he blows up multiple timelines at once, which he has not been shown doing.

 

[Kyo_Zero]

So does it have to be multiple timelines destroyed at once to go further than 2C, even if suggested that he would go through every timeline he was given? If so then unfortunately I can't really give much more evidence with my current understanding that he's capable of doing so, outside of the idea that with the use of a single tentacle an entire reality was destroyed, so he's probably capable of doing more, but I can't really provide much to suggest how much more, outside of counting every tentacle and saying "He can do this many" which is ******* stupid.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that it might be reasonable for Ouroboros to receive a "Likely 2-C" or "Possibly 2-C" rating (which goes up to 1000 timelines at once), although supposedly destroying "the celestial realm" does not count, as we try to avoid cases of illogical Reality - Fiction Interaction.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

In all fairness, though he had been doing this all casually, we do know that he could have destroyed at least three at once.

And, had the Warriors of Light not fought back, Ouroboros would have destroyed more then one world at the same time. Granted, that's only three worlds at once while he's still messing around, and I don't believe it will get him a tier change. :/

Oh, and oddly enough, after Agnes' pendant tells her to reach out to her counter parts from the other worlds, we see that there are worlds already surrounded by those rings, despite the fact that we never see Ouroboros summon them.

 

[Tivanenk]

Hmm, I've just noticed in Bravely Second Tiz profile, why is he downgraded to mountain level? By the end of the game, he managed to take down Lord Providence, so is at least universe level if not multi-universe for attempting to erase the game itself.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

His profile seems to have both Mountain and Multi-Universe ratings on it.

Lester DeRosso is simply one of the best characters to use in terms of solidifying a lower tier is all. If anything, the Ba'al could also allow for even better tiers for such characters (And some upgrades to Yulyana and DeRosso), but that would most likely be a topic for a different thread.

But yeah, Tiz being at Mountain Level is most likely just to specify what he was at a lower level, since he also is in other tiers.

 

[Tivanenk]

The Bravely Second Tiz is downgraded to mountain level for that tab. However, even Diamante is country to continent level (he ravaged the surface of the moon) and some weak Ba'al destroyed a mountain range to create a crater almost as big as an island.

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Also, according to several characters, Yulyana managed to fight a weakened Diamante to a standstill. Should he get buffed, since Diamante could still wreck one half of Eternia and dry up entire oceans while in a weakened state?

Also, I'm pretty sure Diamante was the Ba'al that nearly wrecked a whole island by crashing landing on it.

 

[Tivanenk]

Nah, Diamante was the fortress that they used and was going to wreck the surface of Luxendarc after Anne freed it. The giant crater was caused by Urchin, methinks.

EDIT: Nevermind, it was Diamante who created the crater. Actually, that island is large, quite a decent fraction of a continent (looks like the size of Australia).

 

[GimmyJibbsJr]

Yeah, I noticed that the island itself was also rather large as well. It was larger any of the largest mountains on the World Map iirc.

But yeah, I assume that Yulyana would get buffed by this, assuming the damage ouput is greater then Mountain Level (Which it almost certainly is)?

 

[Tivanenk]

http://i.imgur.com/ao8a1tC.jpg

It's that island to the north. And these big landmasses are continents. It's pretty big when comparing to them.

 

[Antvasima]

So, what statistics changes do you wish to make to the Bravely Default/Bravely Second profiles?

 

[Kyo_Zero]

I'm sure they stated that Diamante was around continent level, and I suppose maybe Anne is moon level given she was able to remove the moon from the initial timeline, but I don't know if that's all her doing

 

[Tivanenk]

Yeah, Diamante is continent level for wrecking the moon the way he did, and Lord Providence is multiversal since he was going to erase the game itself.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we tend to avoid Reality - Fiction Interaction situations, as they tend to be illogical and unquantifiable.

 

[Tivanenk]

Wait, so why exactly are we taking Undertale's save states at face value then?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Because they're achieved through a mechanic explained in universe.

 

[Tivanenk]

The Celestial Realm is a mechanic explained in verse and Providence was going to destroy all the save states you have.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

If the Celestial Realm is a canon concept explained in-universe, I don't see why it can't be used.

 

[Tivanenk]

To be honest, many people misinterpret the Player's concept in the Bravely series. When the game talks about the Player, they're not talking about you specifically, but about the will that controls the characters in-game. Case in point: Altair. Altair was the will (you) that controlled Tiz in the first game, but he is separate from your will in the second game.

So the game doesn't technically interact with the Player, but the will of the Player, if that makes any sense.

Here's the feat of Providence by the way (19 m 47 s):

https://youtu.be/3u2neswobXQ?t=19m47s

 

[Northern_Wind]

It's been a while since I checked in, but I've actually been theorycrafting related to Asriel and I've, hilariously enough, noticed some parallels between the story of Asriel Dreemurr and that of Azathoth.

for one, the only way he got to obtain his self was by wiping everything in existance out ((and yes, I'm not counting his playing around form for this, because reality still existed for that)), I would argue that Asriel's greatest feat is not, in fact, the annihilation of a timeline, but rather what happens afterwards. Even in the flat NOTHING left after Chara obliterates every possible timeline in one swing of a knife, the player can still make choices. The player can still do things other than "Struggle", implying that there's absolutely proof that the Player in Undertale or at least that which has the ability to select an ACT command, be it Frisk or the player can operate so without time or space as a constraint. In fact, there's proof of existing for such beings well beyond the concept of existance itself, as in that void is the only time (even through breaking the game with hacks) that the annoying dog does not actually exist within the void, and thus, it could be argued that since the Dog made every dimensional level of everything within the framework of the game, its nonexistance is nonexistance -- and thus each being is operating on what is described on this wiki as;

"This "space" in which there is no dimension..."

Which;

"...can be the background for any dimensional space. "

However, this is largely irrelevant to the point that is made that the ability to do more than Struggle, such as make decisions in either a verbal or nonverbal manner to the point where another formless being can understand them proves that at the VERY least these beings can operate beyond space and time in an actable capacity.

This makes Asriel's absolute control feat more on par with a being that is capable of completely freezing beings that functionally exist on, at the very least, 5th dimensional level, and capable of infinitely lording his power over beings that are on a 5th dimensional level as well, reducing their capabilities to acting within what I could only describe as "His Soul", and even then, only because he desired to stop did he have to in any way.

The final beam attack of his is more indicative of the nature of monsters than it is of Frisk's resolution, we'd seen Frisk die time and time again during the fight while just as determined to lesser offenses, and as the snowdin library informs us, when a monster no longer desires to fight, it becomes incapable of doing as much harm. Asriel's lack of continued desire to kill Frisk is the reason the rainbow beam did not finish the job Asriel knew was happening -- The erosion of determination and the ability to RESET the timeline and replay the game he'd set up.

And then there's the fact that after time and space were annihilated down to the very core, he took what was left into his wings, leaving nothing in the backdrop but lo and behold, the same VOID that exists during the post-genocide route, complete with lack of Annoying Dog. Everything that was left of reality beyond time and space, through which Frisk could move, is now within Asriel's wings, and Frisk can no longer move.

If I may be so bold -- Asriel, The Dreamer, awoke. And when he did, existance ended with him. All was Asriel. Everything except YOU. Because you're not part of the everything of the game, you're beyond it, an exception to it. You are Frisk.

It's interesting, therefore, that in order for the reality to come back, our Azathothian parallel requires Asriel to go back to sleep. Which is exactly what happens.

Even the NAMES add up in this paralell

Azathoth, the Dreamer

Asriel, the Dreemurr

Do you honestly think with every other name being a reference to something important in this story that the family of the main, core focus of the emotions of the plot's name was nothing more than a pointless reference to dreams? I don't think so.

I find it interesting also that Chara holds several parallels with the character and especially the demeanor of Nyarlathotep as well. A charming, deceptively formal and entirely malicious font for power (A 'crawling chaos') that some are drawn to out of curiosity who, in the end, will destroy the world in accordance with the 'spastic whims' of the sleeping Azathoth (In this case represented by Flowey). He takes greater delight in watching you succumb to madness than in watching actual death and destruction, as evidenced by the fact that his dominant trait is megalomania and not sadism. Indeed he seems relatively unphased by the death around him at all, in comparison to watching your mad whims grow and grow. Furthermore, Chara's existance is 'trapped below' with you whereas when you witness the Azathoth parallel, it's among the stars and well beyond the world as it is known.

Parallels aside -- The point remains that in summary, Asriel's greatest feat is not the destruction of a single timeline, it's the absorbtion of everything beyond time and space into his wings and the freezing of a being that can act outside of time and space entirely. Whether that makes him 1-C (as the ability to be infinitely beyond a 5th dimensionally capabable being should place him, I believe.) or 1-A, if the analogy about the dog creating every layer of reality and being destroyed by Chara along with existance, is to be believed. I'd believe the former is more likely than the latter, but I am interested in hearing people's thoughts on what I've said. Particularly about the indisputable fact that the timeline was ALREADY completely destroyed with the rainbow background still in place, and is then absorbed into Asriel's wings, implying he absorbed every bit of the layer of reality behind Time and Space into himself (5th dimension) and was still capable of moving, changing up his style of attack, etc, beyond it, giving him definitive 6th dimensional capabilities, assuming the 5th dimension is the only layer of reality composed by those endless rainbows.

 

[DarkLordofShadows]

what the