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The Swarmlord VS Kharn the Betrayer

Monarch_Laciel

Monarch_Laciel

VS Battles
Retired
21,783
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Not sure if this ever happened in canon, but they both have a high hyperversal character power nulling psychers, so I'm going to throw them at each other and see what happens.

Both are 5-A

Speed unequalised

Battle takes place on a mysteriously abandoned Mars.
 
The Swarmlord was defeated by Marneus Calgar in their rematch when he was healthy, Kharn has contested with people of greater power than both of them.
 
The Swarmlord lost against Marneus Calgar in their rematch, and since Kharn has easily beat Azrael who is also a chapter master, I think reasonable to say Kharn is a higher degree of 5-A than the Swarmlord.

There's also the fact that Khorne could nullify the Swarmlord's psychic attacks.
 
I'm sure the Swarmlord and Kharn are similarly skilled (there's at least not a huge gap there) and without its psychic powers it really just comes down to a contest of skill and strength.
 
The Swarmlord is vastly more intelligent and possibly more experienced.

Some quotes on Tyranid Intellect:

To human eyes, a tyranid organism was a single thing, a beast like any other. This was not so.
Each monster in the limitless swarms was a carefully designed colony of symbiotic creatures. Once incorporated into the hive fleet's genetic knowledge, the baseline genome of those organisms chosen for a primary host was pared back to the bare essentials, and gifted with the characteristics common to all tyranid creatures ― thick, chitinous armour, a hexapedal anatomy, multiple redundant organs ― characteristics that, above all else, made them incredibly difficult to kill. Only then were the true adaptations added.
Though the finished creature may have looked like a complete, single being, it was made up of a multiplicity of individual creatures, many of them semi-sentient in their own right. This was most obvious to the casual observer in the weapons borne by the larger constructs, whose repurposed anatomies still retained recognisable biological shapes. There were other, less obvious examples of forced parasitism. Thinking blood. Organs that could live separately from the creature they served. Subsidiary brains that awaited the death of the main nerve stem or the presentation of some unusual circumstance that required specialist knowledge not present in the basic mentality of the creature; both events that might never come to pass. Organs could be installed, fully aware, and live for centuries, never realising their potential. The hive fleet was so huge it could afford to be profligate with flesh.
This modularity of being allowed the enhancement of creatures at short notice, or modification for particular roles. As the Angels Excelsis annihilated the small tyranid scavenging fleet, one such colony of beasts approached the Splendid Pinion.
Among the debris of the dead hive ships floated something that appeared to be another piece of biological wreckage, but was in fact a cunningly conceived single-occupant void pod.
The nature of the tyranids made it impossible to say which part of this gestalt biomechanism possessed the guiding mind. Was it the sensor beast, mounted upon the blunt nose, that perceived the Space Marine ship and originated the nerve pulses that dictated the pod's action? Or was the Splendid Pinion spied by the eyes of the pod itself, and was it then the pod's rudimentary brain, housed at the rear, that directed it? Or were these elements of the colony subsidiary to the mind of the infiltration beast carried within, that slumbered and yet looked out upon the void through the linked brains of its outer casing? They were all ultimately part of the greater whole of the hive, so which was the driving sentience? The classifications used by the Imperium to define levels of consciousness among the swarm's parts were crude. They lacked subtlety. Perhaps even at the height of its power, mankind could not have understood the tyranids.
- The Devastation of Baal
The lictor looked like a creature unto itself. It moved as a solitary organism. It had operated on its own for years, far away from the hive fleet. But it was not apart from the hive mind. That was the mistake the prey always made. Even at this corpuscular level, it was a mistake to see the lictor as a lictor, one of millions; there were not many, there was one. The lictor was the lictor. Every iteration was a copy, better than perfect for aeons of improvement, party to the actions, mistakes and successes of every other lictor that had come before. Welded to the very genes of its being were untold millions of years of experience. And it was on Baal just as it was simultaneously on a thousand other worlds throughout the galaxy.
It put ancient lessons into action. Sight was the easiest sense to fool. The lictor moved at night, when it was harder to see. Chromatic microscales lent it near perfect chameleonic ability even in the full light of day. Deformable organ clusters embedded in its skin allowed it to change its shape somewhat, enabling it to take on the rough texture of stone, or mimic fronds of vegetation. Smell was a more primal sense, harder to deceive because of it. The lictor managed that too. It had virtually no scent. Only when it flooded the air with pheromone trails to guide its kin beasts did its emissions become noticeable. By then it was too late. Most prey could hear, so it made no sound when it moved. Special arrangements of hairs baffled the whisper of its limbs moving over one another.
More esoteric senses were equally well accounted for. Its electromagnetic profile was minimal. Its brain case was shielded by internal bone structures against energy leakage. The nerves in its body were similarly cloaked. Its hooves were shaped to make the minimum of vibration, and although it could not entirely stop the perturbation of the air made by its movements, its chitinous plates were fluted in precise molecular, fractal patterns to minimise its wake. It gave off no heat. It shed no cells unless damaged. Its psychic link with the hive mind was like spider silk, gossamer thin, strong, and almost impossible to detect.
More adaptations heaped on top of more. Unlike a natural organism, which loses certain gifts in favour of others as evolution pushes it down a particular path, the lictor's advantages were retained, new gifts stacked atop the ­others. Its genetic structure was incredibly complex. Within every cell was billions of years' worth of adaptation, culled from every lictor, coiled up one over the other. Anything useful to its role, no matter how inconsequential seeming, it retained forever.
Every machine and psychic ability the Imperium had geared towards detection, the lictor could evade. The hive mind had consumed far more advanced races than mankind. Infiltrating Baal was child's play. There was no need for it to employ a fraction of its considerable talents.
- The Devastation of Baal
 
This is basically a definite skill and intelligence advantage vs. an utterly unquantifiable AP advantage.

Going with Swarm for Matt's reasons.
 
The Swarmlord is vastly more intelligent, but I don't think I'd in a million years call it more skilled in direct combat. It's a combat monster no doubt, but in its first encounter with Calgar (the one in which it wins), it specifically tired him out with numerous elite warrior organisms before swooping in for the kill, which was only prevented via Calgar's Honour Guard. When the two fought on more even footing, Calgar killed it with his bare hands. The Swarmlord's next confrontation with a major Chapter Master was against Dante, who slaughtered it while not at full health.

  • Kharn, on the other hand, has had very different tussles with Chapter Masters. When he went up against Azrael, he started out not even taking the Dark Angel seriously, instead sarcastically mocking his attire. Azrael inflicted two superficial cuts on Kharn during this point. When Kharn started getting somewhat serious, Azrael was in danger of dying, couldn't make a single counter hit, and had to flee.
"Azrael had cut Khârn twice. It was unlikely there would be a third time.

Relentlessly, Khârn came at Azrael, the Dark Angel desperately parrying the savage swipes as he backed away from his assailant. For every blow that he knocked aside, another made contact, breaking open armour and tearing the flesh beneath. There was no longer opportunity for counter-attack, each motion of the Dark Angel's sword was a defensive stroke staving off the inevitable." - Trials of Azrael

  • That is Kharn having an absolutely ludicrous skill advantage against one of the top Chapter Masters in the setting. Hell, Kharn could knock Azrael around with just his fists, in their encounter.
"The World Eater struck out with his fist, the punch so powerful that it lifted Azrael from the ground and sent him crashing into a table." - Trials of Azrael

  • Then of course there's Kharn killing a high-ranking Flesh Tearer in seconds, even after giving his foe multiple advantages, and using the Astartes equivalent of a pocket knife.
""BLOOD!" with a scream of bestial rage the Flesh Tearer lunged forward. The beast was fast, supernaturally fast and barely seemed to touch the ground as it moved. The mighty chain glaive it wielded whirred deafeningly as eager for blood as its master and the Flesh Tearer brought it down overhead in a deadly arc. Kharn made no attempt to dodge the blow or feint to the side, nor to bring his blade up to block the powerful strike. As the Flesh Tearer screamed its horrifying war cry Kharn flipped the sword around into a reverse grip in his left hand and at the very last moment dropped down to one knee. The churning barbed teeth of the glaive tore threw the air only a millimeter from his forehead as he slid under the blow. Before the Flesh Tearer could turn for a second strike Kharn rose and still using his forward momentum plunged his blade into the side of the Flesh Tearer's head. With the flat of his right palm pressed against the butt of the hilt he guided the sword as he rammed it home with the full weight of his body behind it. Kharn roared and twist the hilt so sharply that the blade broke off inside his opponents skull. The Flesh Tearer was dead before his body hit the ground. Silence descended over the area. It had all happened in barely a few seconds." - Chosen of Khorne

  • Kharn has also shown multiple times to be extremely proficient at killing enemies who get the jump on him.
"Korbadash skidded to a stop as two figures burst from the flank of a nearby building. Khârn, locked together with a Death Company Chaplain. Trailing rubble, they fell from the first floor of the ruin into the street. Khârn landed atop his foe with an audible crunch of bones, before hammering his fist into the Chaplain's helm. The Betrayer rose, straddling his victim with his back to Korbadash. This was his moment, realized the Berzerker. He would slay both the Betrayer and his quarry, and earn Khorne's greatest blessings. Daemonhood beckoned!

Korbadash broke into a run, closing the gap upon the battered combatants. As though in slow motion, Khârn raised Gorechild high and brought the weapon arcing down. The Chaplain raised his crozius at the last moment, turning the blow in a bloom of white light, but as the flare died away it was clear that would be his last act of defiance. Gorechild had severed the warrior's arm and sent it, crozius and all, tumbling away into the dust.

Korbadash's mouth split in a hungry grin. His chainaxe swept around to strike the killing blow. One moment, the Betrayer seemed utterly oblivious, intent on his mangled prey. The next, he was turning, on his feet, weaving aside from the Berzerker's killing stroke with speed that seemed impossible for such a hulking butcher.

And then Korbadash was sprawled in the roadway. The Berzerker tried to rise, but slumped forwards as he realized that Khârn had hacked him in half." - Traitor's Hate

This isn't even taking into account stuff like Kharn killing two living saints, or being skilled enough to briefly contend with Abaddon despite being vastly weaker.

Like I said before, Swarmy is smarter, but in no way is it more skilled in a direct confrontation. It's facing down one of the best one-on-howevermanyyouwant fighters in the entire setting, and unlike its first confrontation with Calgar, it doesn't have squads upon squads of elite warrior organisms to wear the foe down before it steps in. Considering who it's facing, I don't think that would really matter, either.
 
Kharn also has gone up with some other foes as well, if only the feats he has compared to the above that Azzy showed is rather minor or something.

A couple he has is this:

  • Takes on 25 Khrone Berzerkers at the same time and ends up killing them and adding them to his kill count.
Suddenly the rest of the berserkers were upon him. Khârn found himself fighting for his immortal life. These were no mere Slaanesh cultists. Newly tainted though they might be, they had once been worthy followers of Khorne, fierce, deadly and full of bloodlust. Mighty maces bludgeoned Khârn. Huge chainswords threatened to tear his rune-encrusted armor. Bolter shells tore chunks from his breastplate. Khârn fought on, undismayed, filled with the joy of battle, taking fierce pleasure every time Gorechild took another life. At last, these were worthy foes! The body count swiftly ticked to 2460 and continued to rise.

Instinctively, Khârn sidestepped a blow that tore off one of the metal skulls which dangled from his belt. The Betrayer swore he would replace it with the attacker's own skull. His return stroke made good his vow. He whirled Gorechild in a great figure-of-eight and cleared a space all around him, sending two more traitors to make their excuses to the Blood Good. Insane bloodlust surged through him, overcoming even the soporific influence of the Heart of Desire and for a moment Khârn fought with his full unfettered power. He became transformed into an unstoppable engine of destruction and nothing could stand against him.

Khârn's heart pounded. The blood sang through his veins and the desire to kill made him howl uncontrollably. Bones crunched beneath his axe. His pistol blew away the life of its targets. He stamped on the heads of the fallen, crushing them to jelly. Khârn ignored pain, ignored any idea of self-preservation, and fought for the pure love of fighting. He killed and he killed.

All too soon it was over, and Khârn stood alone in a circle of corpses. His breathing rasped from his chest. Blood seeped through a dozen small punctures in his armor. He felt like a rib might have been broken by the last blow of that mace but he was triumphant. His counter read 2485. He sensed the presence of one more victim and turned to confront the figure on the dais. -Let The Galaxy Burn

  • Takes on a Terminator by the name of "Lord Tarrogar" or just Tarrogar, apparently some guy that seems notable enough to give Kharn some very slight bit of trouble but still ultimately losing in the end.
With a roar Kharn barreled into the Warlord from behind and Gorechild bit deeply into the back of Tarrogar's right leg. It's shrieking teeth spraying blood and shards of ceramite onto the arena floor. the blow did not fell him but he staggered and swung around lighting claws slashing through empty air. Kharn avoided their touch side-stepping neatly around his heavier foe and aimed another blow at the same leg striking hard into the weak armor at the back of the knee.

Tarrogar howled in agony crashing to the ground his leg almost completely severed. Kharn was upon him instantly. He pinned the hulking beast his knee pressing one claw to the floor. He brought Gorechild close to aim his final and decapitating strike. With his free hand Tarrogar caught the mighty chainaxe by its hilt as Kharn brought it down towards his throat. The servos in his gauntlet whined in protest such was Kharn's strength but he held fast the axe a safe distance away from his face.

"You lose. Little man."

Tarrogar grinned evilly and began to squeeze Kharn's fist in his servo powered gauntlet. Bare knuckles began to creak and crack under the terrible pressure. Kharn snarled wordlessly but smoothly drew his plasma pistol and aimed it into the joint of Tarrogars elbow.

"No Devourer. You lose!"

There was a flare like a miniature blue sun and Mavin was forced to cover his eyes. The Warlord had turned away from the shot but he not howled in pain and impotent rage. Armor, flesh and bone ran together dripping onto the ground and small flickers of flame danced in the charred joint where his arm now ended. Kharn tossed away the severed arm and gripped Gorechild in both hand. It was hard work to get at his enemies thick bull-like neck protected as it was by his terminator armor but Kharn was not to be dissuaded.

As Tarrogar cursed and spat, Kharn worked the keening chainblade back and forth like a demented surgeon. Sending razor shard of ceramite flying. With a sickening wet sound as the teeth bit home Tarrogar was silenced and bright red blood sprayed over Kharn's armor plate and exposed limbs. With a savage roar of triumph he hacked the Warlords head from his body and atrial pulses gushed from the ragged stump of his neck. Kharn lifted the severed head up high and roared. -Chosen Of Khorne

IDK about these other than saying that Matt and Azzy can clarify better on how good Kharn is from his more better feats of 5-A but this guy is still definitely no joke in the face of direct combat. I suppose if what Azzy said is true then Kharn's got this then at least.
 
I almost voted myself after reading through all this, then remembered I was the OP

Buggy boi: 1 (Kepekley)

Angry boi: 2 (Volundox, ItalianGuy)

Neither boi: 0
 
It takes an army of >5-As to be nearly as dangerous as Kharn himself according to his accolades, so we can assume he's well beyond the 5-A rating The Swarmlord scales to.
 
Minor critique, but you can't really call Commander ************* Dante just "another Chapter Master".

The dude is a monster in everything he does, and is also all but stated to be a prophecized chosen one who is watched over by the spirit of Sanguinius.
 
  • To pretty much just explain on the degree on what Italian said on group of 5-A's to be just as dangerous as Kharn himself, it's of here:
"Most terrifying of all were the massed Daemon Engines of the Butcherhorde. Amongst the packs of prowling Maulerfiends and Defilers towered super-heavy abominations such as the scuttling Brass Scorpions and the Lords of Skulls. Driven by the caged fury of Khorne's most powerful daemons, these engines of destruction were nearly as deadly as the Betrayer himself." - Traitor's Hate, pg 57

  • And another of where, as Azzy pointed out on his Chaos feats blog of WH, Kharn is still more dangerous than the guys above who can also do something like this:
"So great is the daemonic rage of the Lord of Skulls that it fractures reality. Cracks spread and widen beneath its rumbling treads, boiling blood and chattering skulls spilling up from below. The sky is rent by crimson lightning every time the war engine looses another roar of fury. Enemies fall to their knees and wail in terror as the titanic Daemon Engine opens fire, tides of boiling gore and whipping storms of brass shells silencing their cries for good. Driven on by the caged essence of a Bloodthirster, this hellish war engine surges forwards on powerful tracked engines, desperate to close the gap and sink the whirling teeth of its great cleaver into metal and flesh. A single swing of this vast weapon can lop off a Titan's head, or sweep away ranks of luckless soldiers." - Traitor's Hate, pg 117

So yeah, he's pretty up there on the 5-A scale.
 
Actually after reading the older Eldar codex, a dozen Carinfexes were capable of butchering an Avatar of Khaine, these Carnifexes were weaker than an Hive Tyrant and thus MUCH weaker than the Swarmlord. So, the Swarmlord is up there in the 5-A chain
 
A dozen Carnifexes beating an Avatar is one of the worst Avatar anti-feats in the whole setting. That's even taking into consideration that Avatars vary so greatly in power.
 
@Azzy I'm not even surprised anymore by it. Though the average Avatar of Khaine should be at least as strong as the Storm Prince.
 
A stronger/notable Avatar should be. Weaker ones have drastically varying levels, though they should at least be on the level of generic but powerful Warp entities like Velthinar.
 
No. Because as I said, it's an anti-feat for an Avatar, not a feat for Carnifexes. Basic Carnifexes are easily and often slain by much less than Low 5-B firepower.
 
Buggy boi. His blades are longer than Kharn's Axe and he is a cold blooded opponent. It means he can use Kharn's fury against him.
 
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