The star of the ring! Mario vs Sonic in their base (Concluded)

[Omegabronic]

Because Mario’s 1-up mushrooms are passive in almost every game, the small handful of instances in the RPGs don’t stack up.

Exept when mario has the thing that gives him the limitless items, so in character mario uses them the way he has shown to use when using the thing that gives limitless items, basic logic

And Mario should probably counter sealing in base, he isn’t sealed when touching black ooze.

Not accepted so not relevant

 

[LaserPrecision]

Tbf, regarding the Magic Hands, rather than rendering the opponent unconcious, couldn't it also just be interpreted as paralysis inducement + sealing? It clearly has some second effect given it freezes the target. But I don't think we get confirmation on what.

 

[JJSliderman]

Exept when mario has the thing that gives him the limitless items, so in character mario uses them the way he has shown to use when using the thing that gives limitless items, basic logic

And I’m saying there’s nothing that points to passive 1-ups not being infinite if Mario used Bottomless gloves in a game with passive 1-ups.

 

[Omegabronic]

And I’m saying there’s nothing that points to passive 1-ups not being infinite if Mario used Bottomless gloves in a game with passive 1-ups.

The fact that the only time he uses rhe thing that makes it infinite making the mushrooms not passive?

 

[LaserPrecision]

As for the retry clock thing, I personally don't think it makes sense to assume going back in time undoes BFR. Because you would need to assume it has two powers, not just one. That being time travel and Dimensional Travel. If you use Time Travel in a separate space-time, you can only travel throughout that continuum. Not EVERY continuum. However, if it has been shown to let him jump to other universes, then it'd be fine.

 

[Omegabronic]

As for the retry clock thing, I personally don't think it makes sense to assume going back in time undoes BFR. Because you would need to assume it has two powers, not just one. That being time travel and Dimensional Travel. If you use Time Travel in a separate space-time, you can only travel throughout that continuum. Not EVERY continuum. However, if it has been shown to let him jump to other universes, then it'd be fine.

But in that case it would also depend on the range of it

 

[LaserPrecision]

But in that case it would also depend on the range of it

Mmmm, yeah, kinda.

 

[Omegabronic]

Based on everything said, i will vote for sonic for shake's list reasons

 

[AStrangeverse]

Not voting quite yet, but I'm leaning towards Sonic.

+ Superior Acrobatics (And it's not even close. He can jump far higher, contort his body to dodge far easier, and can outmaneuver Mario in practically every sense of the word except for flight)

how high can hedge jump? cuz some of Mario's greater jump feats have him clearing several stories in a single bound

the rest is understandable, but considering Mario is very well-versed in acrobatics, it isn't as one-sided as you think

+ Item Boxes largely hard-counter Mario's standard power-ups (and vice verse, to be expected from the gaming rivals)

true, some of them counter his standard arsenal, but Mario's also got Optional Equipment here

+ Speed Amps (and not just speed amps, but speed amps so in-character that they're essentially the backbone in Sonic's moveset) that will leave Mario utterly helpless should he enter CQC.

I really don't recall hog using speed amps right off the rip as much as you claim he does

I'm very aware it's pretty in character for him to, considering his reputation and all, but he seems to mainly rely on his natural speed at first

could always be wrong tho

+ Soul Gauge (which grants him not only an additional Speed Amp and another Perception Amp, but grants him endless Resurrection so long as he fills the gauge with energy [which he can do so by simply running, practically guaranteeing Sonic will not face a permanent death])

scan for that speed and perception amp?

also seems pretty inferior to Mario's own array of revives

+ Superior combat skill (Though not by a vast margin. Sonic's capability of fighting and consistently winning against machines designed to either replicate [Metal Sonic, Emerl] or specifically counter [Egg Dragoon] his fighting pattern over years ensures that any adjustments Mario makes in his combat approach with Sonic won't even do any good)

I mean, as of right now, Mario's fought two master martial artists, both of whom become increasingly difficult after each bout against Mario (which is up to 3 times)

Mario's also fought and won against Shadoo, someone who went through the trouble of having Mario battle against 200 enemies (as he had him do the Pit of 100 Trials in Flopside twice), just to get a thorough scan and read on his capabilities and proceed to become Mario to fight him

and lastly, he's fought against Bowser Memory M and Bowser Memory L, both of whom are copies of Mario and Luigi based off of how Bowser remembers the duo, and they're capable of using both of the Bros. own moves against them

so I'd say Mario can relatively hold his own, despite being at a disadvantage

+ BFR with greater range/into Cyberspace (I'm unsure if what Omega is true, but if Mario really can't rewind time after BFR due to leaving said Space-Time then that's another wincon. If it doesn't work, Sealing into Cyberspace like JJ mentioned would work)

true, I don't think any of Mario's rewind options can really save him there, but badges like Pretty Lucky, Lucky Day, and Close Call reduce the chances of that working by quite a bit

+ Danger Sense (Avoids Mario getting any attack off by surprise and further helps Sonic to dodge his attacks)

touché

+ 4x greater reaction speed (which will even out Mario slowing down his perception of time, as Sonic can consistently and repeatedly react to and avoid the V. Maximum Overdrive Attack) + Perception Manipulation of his own (Through Parry, an advantage in and of itself due to how broken it is it works)

I mean, Mario can react pretty easily to both Bowser Memory's utilizing the Super Star, which is pretty consistently depicted to increase speed and more

I'm sure there's other examples, but that's what came off the top of my head

of course though, it still falls short to Sonic's reaction speed

+ Layered Time Stop via Chaos Control (Something that will negate and flip any unfavorable situation Sonic finds himself in, Mario is a sitting duck. This is especially more worrisome for Mario the longer the battle continues).

Those probability badges could aid in buying Mario some time to use some of his other moves, since I don't believe Sonic is dumb enough to try an option that won't work more than once

All of this combined is a LOT to be dealing with.

ye

 

[LaserPrecision]

how high can hedge jump? cuz some of Mario's greater jump feats have him clearing several stories in a single bound

He can jump above the clouds at least, and into space at his best showings. But generally, several to tens of kilometers into the air.

 

[AStrangeverse]

He can jump above the clouds at least, and into space at his best showings. But generally, several to tens of kilometers into the air.

holy shit, I gotta have a link to that, if you don't mind

 

[GlaceonGamez471]

Off the top of my head, there's this jump that looks pretty nifty

 

[AStrangeverse]

oh damn, then nevermind

jumpman gets outperformed in that regard too for now

 

[LaserPrecision]

holy shit, I gotta have a link to that, if you don't mind

Glaceon beat me to it

 

[LaserPrecision]

oh damn, then nevermind

jumpman gets outperformed in that regard too for now

As for the jumping to space thing. I honestly wouldn't be able to find you a specific clip. It's in Sonic Jump tho. There's some jumps that can send you far into space if you have enough upgrades or smth iirc.

 

[AStrangeverse]

As for the jumping to space thing. I honestly wouldn't be able to find you a specific clip. It's in Sonic Jump tho. There's some jumps that can send you far into space if you have enough upgrades or smth iirc.

nah, is aight

the cloud feat was more than enough

 

[AStrangeverse]

I did just find out that Mario can also clear cloud height, so he can still compete

but if ya stumble across that space jump vid, then I'm beat

 

[LaserPrecision]

I did just find out that Mario can also clear cloud height, so he can still compete

but if ya stumble across that space jump vid, then I'm beat

What's the timestamp? I just got a vid of Mario in the desert.

 

[AStrangeverse]

What's the timestamp? I just got a vid of Mario in the desert.

it didn't link to the timestamp? my bad

here's the actual time where the feat takes place

 

[LaserPrecision]

it didn't link to the timestamp? my bad

here's the actual time where the feat takes place

Aight, that one works. Yeah, they seem about relative in the jumping department (I'll assume the feat is a jump rather than smth else due to limitations back then). Tho I do think Sonic is generally far more acrobatic with how nimble and small he is. I think the flexibility and stunts Sonic does is generally far more impressive from a acrobatics pov. I'll see the best jumping feats I can find tho. The absolute best feat might be in shuffle, since I know most of the character's can make ridiculous jumps past stars and constellations, but Shuffle is kinda a weird game.

 

[LaserPrecision]

I'll look a bit more, but here's some of Sonic jumping through the cosmo's (With Boost, which for what it's worth has shown to significantly increase Sonic's air time in other games). I'll look for the Shuffle stuff. Might take a while tho

 

[AStrangeverse]

Aight, that one works. Yeah, they seem about relative in the jumping department (I'll assume the feat is a jump rather than smth else due to limitations back then). Tho I do think Sonic is generally far more acrobatic with how nimble and small he is. I think the flexibility and stunts Sonic does is generally far more impressive from a acrobatics pov. I'll see the best jumping feats I can find tho. The absolute best feat might be in shuffle, since I know most of the character's can make ridiculous jumps past stars and constellations, but Shuffle is kinda a weird game.

understandable, since Nic's acrobatics also falls in line with his general superior speed over his opponents, such as in Unleashed

again, Mario doesn't fall too short in that department, unless what you said about Shuffle is true, then rip

 

[LaserPrecision]

understandable, since Nic's acrobatics also falls in line with his general superior speed over his opponents, such as in Unleashed

I only think speed is a small aspect of acrobatics. It's just generally how he bends his body and navigates maps by jumps, loop-de-loops, wall running/jumping, running across an enemies entire surface which looks more clean/nimble than what I generally see from Mario (Not gonna say he's bad. I don't think he's infinitely worse. But I do think what Sonic does look substantially more impressive from a neutral PoV).

 

[AStrangeverse]

I only think speed is a small aspect of acrobatics.

ye I know, das why I included "also" in there

It's just generally how he bends his body and navigates maps by jumps, loop-de-loops,

understandable

wall running/jumping, running across an enemies entire surface

Mario's actually done all three of those before without issue, but I assume you already knew that

which looks more clean/nimble than what I generally see from Mario (Not gonna say he's bad. I don't think he's infinitely worse. But I do think what Sonic does look substantially more impressive from a neutral PoV).

understandable

 

[LaserPrecision]

Mario's actually done all three of those before without issue, but I assume you already knew that

Yeah. Not a super big Mario fan (I play his game, they are fun. I don't mean in the he's lame sense, just the I'm not a super big fan of him like I am Sonic), but I am aware of that much. It's just when Sonic does it, it looks more agile/quick and clean.

As an example, look at how Mario jumps off of enemies versus how Sonic leaps on enemies, and circumnavigates their entire surface before leaping forward. It just looks a LOT more impressive. I guess it seems this way since Sonic was essentially made as a speedster version of Mario, so the acrobatics looking more impressive to the general eye is to be expected. I don't think Mario is incapable of acrobatics tho. Just think Sonic's in like a league of his own (He unironically does some of the most impressive acrobatics/parkour of almost any fictional character I know. Tho I admittedly don't look into a bunch of parkour/acrobatic series).

 

[AStrangeverse]

Yeah. Not a super big Mario fan (I play his game, they are fun. I don't mean in the he's lame sense, just the I'm not a super big fan of him like I am Sonic), but I am aware of that much. It's just when Sonic does it, it looks more agile/quick and clean.

As an example, look at how Mario jumps off of enemies versus how Sonic leaps on enemies, and circumnavigates their entire surface before leaping forward. It just looks a LOT more impressive. I guess it seems this way since Sonic was essentially made as a speedster version of Mario, so the acrobatics looking more impressive to the general eye is to be expected. I don't think Mario is incapable of acrobatics tho. Just think Sonic's in like a league of his own (He unironically does some of the most impressive acrobatics/parkour of almost any fictional character I know. Tho I admittedly don't look into a bunch of parkour/acrobatic series).

yeah, understandable

wish there were more supporters like yall for Mario, so his verse wouldn't be in shambles

 

[LaserPrecision]

yeah, understandable

wish there were more supporters like yall for Mario, so his verse wouldn't be in shambles

It is a shame. I'm not even a super big Mario fan and I feel bad for its current state. I've considered helping with little stuff before, tho don't think I'd be of much use.

 

[AStrangeverse]

It is a shame. I'm not even a super big Mario fan and I feel bad for its current state. I've considered helping with little stuff before, tho don't think I'd be of much use.

honestly, any help would do, but we should probably get back on topic

 

[LaserPrecision]

honestly, any help would do, but we should probably get back on topic

Yeah, we did get a bit off track. I think I'll still wait before voting. Wanna hear what others think. If even the Mario fans agree he loses, then it's an easy vote. If not, then I'll hear them out.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Based on everything said, i will vote for sonic for shake's list reasons

Counted

 

[Theuser789]

Voting Sonic for Shake's reasons, too. Sonic's arguments are more in character versus Mario's logic of mixing multiple games together.

 

[ShakeResounding]

I really don't recall hog using speed amps right off the rip as much as you claim he does

I'm very aware it's pretty in character for him to, considering his reputation and all, but he seems to mainly rely on his natural speed at first

Nah I worded it weirdly, I'm mainly talking about them being moves that Sonic either uses frequently (Spin Dash) or compliments his natural speed (Boost era). You're correct on his natural speed coming first.

scan for that speed and perception amp?

Gotchu, man. Here it is. Edit: you meant for Shahra's Ring, I'll get a clip when I wake up again

also seems pretty inferior to Mario's own array of revives

Yeh it is, I'm only arguing it'd be more of a last-resort necessity should Sonic actually be at-risk of dying. Where Mario's resurrection has the numerical advantage (limitless revives), Sonic's matches it in efficiency (energy to revive so long as he runs to refill it)

I mean, as of right now, Mario's fought [snippy snippy] so I'd say Mario can relatively hold his own, despite being at a disadvantage

100%, I probably made it sound like I was underselling Mario a tad due to my lack of general knowledge.

true, I don't think any of Mario's rewind options can really save him there, but badges like Pretty Lucky, Lucky Day, and Close Call reduce the chances of that working by quite a bit

Fair, that bolsters Mario's capability of evasion and allows him to compete better with Sonic's high-pace style.

I mean, Mario can react pretty easily to both Bowser Memory's utilizing the Super Star, which is pretty consistently depicted to increase speed and more I'm sure there's other examples, but that's what came off the top of my head of course though, it still falls short to Sonic's reaction speed

Also fair, though I'm uncertain if that'd meaningfully equate to being able to react to Sonic's level of speed amps. He could from afar when they're initially approaching one another, it's if Sonic uses them in close range where it gets far more dangerous.

This is probably the fairest this match-up has been throughout the entire life of the wiki and I'm digging it.

 

[ShakeResounding]

wish there were more supporters like yall for Mario, so his verse wouldn't be in shambles

This comment was very touching. Maybe one day, when we finish sorting out our own messes lol!

 

[AStrangeverse]

This comment was very touching. Maybe one day, when we finish sorting out our own messes lol!

cheers to that, and thanks for the scan

I don't think Hoghedge would be able to deal any lasting damage, even with his amps, due to badges like Mayo's probability ones reducing the chances of Cinos getting off any particular moves on him, badges like Last Stand and Return Postage being able to halve the damage Jumpman would take should he be in critical condition and also returning half of the damage dealt back to Blue Man respectively. Hell, with items like the Boost Star or the Ruby Star, Malleo wouldn't even need to be near Sunky to damage him

there's also equipment like the Guard Shell series that can completely nullify any physical harm Maurice may land on Red Stache, and numerous healing items (some even passive) that'll constantly heal Mario in the process, making that task hella difficult

so once Mario's primary methods of offense do him barely any good, there shouldn't be any reason to doubt he'd resort to his extensive arsenal

I could honestly see this ending as an incon, since both would constantly be able to revive and have enough time to use either of their more effective options on the other (Sonic potentially BFR with the Chaos Nachos and Mario drawing his deck of Catch Cards or his Sleep Manip options)

 

[Omegabronic]

cheers to that, and thanks for the scan

I don't think Hoghedge would be able to deal any lasting damage, even with his amps, due to badges like Mayo's probability ones reducing the chances of Cinos getting off any particular moves on him, badges like Last Stand and Return Postage being able to halve the damage Jumpman would take should he be in critical condition and also returning half of the damage dealt back to Blue Man respectively. Hell, with items like the Boost Star or the Ruby Star, Malleo wouldn't even need to be near Sunky to damage him

there's also equipment like the Guard Shell series that can completely nullify any physical harm Maurice may land on Red Stache, and numerous healing items (some even passive) that'll constantly heal Mario in the process, making that task hella difficult

so once Mario's primary methods of offense do him barely any good, there shouldn't be any reason to doubt he'd resort to his extensive arsenal

I could honestly see this ending as an incon, since both would constantly be able to revive and have enough time to use either of their more effective options on the other (Sonic potentially BFR with the Chaos Nachos and Mario drawing his deck of Catch Cards or his Sleep Manip options)

Chaos nachos, yumy

 

[JJSliderman]

I would agree with incon if Mario didn’t have multiple ways to get rid of Shahra’s ring, either with Plunder Chest or just destroying it as a byproduct of one of his big AOE attacks.

 

[Omegabronic]

I would agree with incon if Mario didn’t have multiple ways to get rid of Shahra’s ring, either with Plunder Chest or just destroying it as a byproduct of one of his big AOE attacks.

The ring is durable enough to survive being in a fight with sonic, plus what exactly is stoping sonic from just taking up immeditly afterwards with his blitz instant speed amps? Also even if mario does that, how exactly would he finish sonic? Keep in mind that even without the ring sonic can still revive

 

[Brogeefrong]

Voting Sonic for Shake's reasons, too. Sonic's arguments are more in character versus Mario's logic of mixing multiple games together.

Counted

 

[AStrangeverse]

The ring is durable enough to survive being in a fight with sonic, plus what exactly is stoping sonic from just taking up immeditly afterwards with his blitz instant speed amps?

true, since he also had it during his fight with Alf Layla, iirc

but nothing really stops Mario from simply disarming him again

Also even if mario does that, how exactly would he finish sonic? Keep in mind that even without the ring sonic can still revive

that there is among the reasons why incon makes the most sense to me

 

[JJSliderman]

Shahra was dead during the Alf Layla fight.

Also no Sonic can’t revive on his own without the ring, Chaos Emeralds require a wish to revive people from death