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The star of the ring! Mario vs Sonic in their base (Concluded)

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Magic gloves are countered by Time rewind items, Mario resists transmutation, Sonic can’t punch him to death.
Sonic is Acausal so he'll literally remember everything, never brought it up, and he quite literally can because he's so much faster with amps that he will repeatedly blitz and there's nothing Mario can do other than play on the defensive.

There is no such luxury for Mario.
 
Sonic is Acausal so he'll literally remember everything, never brought it up, and he quite literally can because he's so much faster with amps that he will repeatedly blitz and there's nothing Mario can do other than play on the defensive.

There is no such luxury for Mario.
Him remembering everything doesn’t stop him from being rewound, and Sonic doesn’t have a reliable way to get rid of Mario’s time items besides frisking them from his pocket (Shuffle items only work on other Forcejewels)
 
Him remembering everything doesn’t stop him from being rewound, and Sonic doesn’t have a reliable way to get rid of Mario’s time items besides frisking them from his pocket (Shuffle items only work on other Forcejewels)
sealing with magic gloves, or chaos control bfr
 
Mario is still conscious within the Magic glove orb to use Earlier Times, and Mario can just rewind the battle to escape CC BFR unless Sonic gets rid of the clocks and Earlier Times first.
 
Him remembering everything doesn’t stop him from being rewound, and Sonic doesn’t have a reliable way to get rid of Mario’s time items besides frisking them from his pocket (Shuffle items only work on other Forcejewels)
Sonic doesn't need it to, because it's going to put him in a mindset where he realizes he's essentially time looped and thus he'll stray from typical CQC if necessary. Meanwhile he gets better knowledge on how Mario fights (and vice versa to be fair) + essentially gets his stamina restored for free.

And if we REALLY wanna get to the nitty griddy (heh), Sonic putting Mario in a perma-loop of death is a valid wincon if Mario is unable to retaliate (and is wholly feasible if it gets to the point where Sonic is using Chaos Control).
 
Mario is still conscious within the Magic glove orb to use Earlier Times
sonic then seals him again immeditaly with his innumerable speed blitz amps, making it an incap since mario will get sealed immeditaly after getting back, until sonic decides to end it with sealing into another dimension chaos control thingy

and Mario can just rewind the battle to escape CC BFR
2-B, possibly 2-A range, rewind all he wants, he will be in another space time

unless Sonic gets rid of the clocks and Earlier Times first.
another space time, rewind time will not make him come back
 
Mario is still conscious within the Magic glove orb to use Earlier Times,
Wait, hold the phone, I just realized you're trying to sneak in headcanon. Where's the explicit stated proof for this? Otherwise you're wrong and Magic Hands should be a completely viable method.
 
The argument in this case is whether the Magic Gloves sealing does an extra ability in negating the target’s ability to perform actions inside the orb, that’s a positive that needs to be proven.
 
The argument in this case is whether the Magic Gloves sealing does an extra ability in negating the target’s ability to perform actions inside the orb, that’s a positive that needs to be proven.
No, because this is entirely against how the Magic Hands operate. They trap an enemy in a bubble, rendering the enemy completely and utterly motionless despite also working on mechanical creations designed to attack him (G.U.N. or otherwise) which wouldn't cease just because they're in a bubble.

It's YOU who needs to prove why they should be conscious, because YOU are the one who assumed such without proof.
 
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How are they supposed to attack him if they’re inside the bubble, and the enemies Sonic uses MG on don’t have any hax to escape that they could try to use to begin with.

Also Mario resists sealing anyway, only Chaos Control can work and that’s only if you agree Time rewind can’t counter dimensional BFR, or agree that Sonic can get rid of all of Mario’s time items.
 
I do wanna point put, that one of the battle cards Mario can use allows him to disarm his opponent, so that could neg Shara's ring

he could also use a Catch Card to soul snatch him, continuously grow stronger from taking damage, utilize the music keys to Empath manip Sonic or cause him to dance

and when did Chaos Control become 4D wat
 
I do wanna point put, that one of the battle cards Mario can use allows him to disarm his opponent, so that could neg Shara's ring
It wouldn't really help him in surviving Sonic, or help when Sonic gets the Ring back after a retry.

he could also use a Catch Card to soul snatch him, continuously grow stronger from taking damage, utilize the music keys to Empath manip Sonic or cause him to dance
Empath Manip is resisted and Mario growing stronger won't help because it's just a knock-off version of Sonic's AD.
 
I do wanna point put, that one of the battle cards Mario can use allows him to disarm his opponent, so that could neg Shara's ring
then sonic can easily recover it with all of his

he could also use a Catch Card to soul snatch him
low godly regens from it

, continuously grow stronger from taking damage
sonic's ad is activate every second and can make him quintilions of times stronger in a whim when faced with someone dramatically stronger than him, sonic would be able to keep up with it

, utilize the music keys to Empath manip Sonic or cause him to dance
how do they work? sonic in character starts with blitz amps in speed

and when did Chaos Control become 4D wat
a very long time, affecting all of space time on a universal scale

Also Mario resists sealing anyway
he does not
 
I do wanna point put, that one of the battle cards Mario can use allows him to disarm his opponent, so that could neg Shara's ring

he could also use a Catch Card to soul snatch him, continuously grow stronger from taking damage, utilize the music keys to Empath manip Sonic or cause him to dance

and when did Chaos Control become 4D wat
Catch Cards are being relegated to Paper Mario.

That said I don’t think CC sealing has ever prevented someone from escaping by Time traveling.

And yes Mario resists sealing, it’s on his profile via being unaffected by Black Ooze. He just doesn’t resist layered sealing, hence CC BFR into Cyberspace can still work.
 
Catch Cards are being relegated to Paper Mario.

That said I don’t think CC sealing has ever prevented someone from escaping by Time traveling.
it seals in another space time, how would time travel help to get back to another space time?

And yes Mario resists sealing, it’s on his profile via being unaffected by Black Ooze. He just doesn’t resist layered sealing, hence CC BFR into Cyberspace can still work.
only with the giga bell artifact, mario has his optnional equipment, not his artifacts, the profiles separate them, plus mario would become giga cat mario right from the start, he would be sealed in his base form which lacks the resistance first
 
He can touch black ooze normally iirc, it just damages him.

Also idk why being sent to another timeline would negate Time rewind, all the timelines are inherently under the general 4th dimension of time.
 
Not voting quite yet, but I'm leaning towards Sonic.

+ Superior Acrobatics (And it's not even close. He can jump far higher, contort his body to dodge far easier, and can outmaneuver Mario in practically every sense of the word except for flight)

+ Item Boxes largely hard-counter Mario's standard power-ups (and vice verse, to be expected from the gaming rivals)

+ Speed Amps (and not just speed amps, but speed amps so in-character that they're essentially the backbone in Sonic's moveset) that will leave Mario utterly helpless should he enter CQC.

+ Soul Gauge (which grants him not only an additional Speed Amp and another Perception Amp, but grants him endless Resurrection so long as he fills the gauge with energy [which he can do so by simply running, practically guaranteeing Sonic will not face a permanent death])

+ Superior combat skill (Though not by a vast margin. Sonic's capability of fighting and consistently winning against machines designed to either replicate [Metal Sonic, Emerl] or specifically counter [Egg Dragoon] his fighting pattern over years ensures that any adjustments Mario makes in his combat approach with Sonic won't even do any good)

+ BFR with greater range/into Cyberspace (I'm unsure if what Omega is true, but if Mario really can't rewind time after BFR due to leaving said Space-Time then that's another wincon. If it doesn't work, Sealing into Cyberspace like JJ mentioned would work)

+ Danger Sense (Avoids Mario getting any attack off by surprise and further helps Sonic to dodge his attacks)

+ 4x greater reaction speed (which will even out Mario slowing down his perception of time, as Sonic can consistently and repeatedly react to and avoid the V. Maximum Overdrive Attack) + Perception Manipulation of his own (Through Parry, an advantage in and of itself due to how broken it is it works)

+ Layered Time Stop via Chaos Control (Something that will negate and flip any unfavorable situation Sonic finds himself in, Mario is a sitting duck. This is especially more worrisome for Mario the longer the battle continues).

All of this combined is a LOT to be dealing with.
 
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He can touch black ooze normally iirc, it just damages him.
look at the profile, he has no resistance in base form

Also idk why being sent to another timeline would negate Time rewind, all the timelines are inherently under the general 4th dimension of time.
another timeline means another space time separated from the other space time, aka going back in time in a different space time will only make you go back to the space TIME you are already, unless you have proof of dimensional travel
 
I don’t think Cyberspace BFR on its own would negate Time rewind escape since no one has tried to escape Cyberspace via that method in the story to confirm.

And also Retry Clocks and Earlier Times specifically send you to where and when the battle initially started, so it would have to transport Mario back to the dimension he was BFR’d from.
 
I don’t think Cyberspace BFR on its own would negate Time rewind escape since no one has tried to escape Cyberspace via that method in the story to confirm.

And also Retry Clocks and Earlier Times specifically send you to where and when the battle initially started, so it would have to transport Mario back to the dimension he was BFR’d from.
has it shown to have space time dimensional travel of the level of 2-B to 2-A capabilities?
 
No, but characters like Bowser have showcased dimensional travel allowing them to travel across all of Dream Depot and warping through space and time at will, and Mario can hop between dimensions with Subspace portals.
 
Range is at least two dimensions, although I don’t recall CC demonstrating 2B-2A range before.

I brought up Bowser because he can also use retry clocks and I imagine it should be on a comparable level to the range Bowser can travel to in terms of sending him back.
 
He doesn’t have any kind of info analysis to know what Mario has.
The moment he sees Mario reviving himself with a green mushroom he will know.

Seriously, you accept Mario doing things he never does in a single game (Spaming infinite 1-ups while using a very specific combination of equipment), but you can't accept Sonic using his brain?

You keep using headcanon to prop Mario up while making weaknesses for Sonic.
 
Range is at least two dimensions, although I don’t recall CC demonstrating 2B-2A range before.
so not enough

I brought up Bowser because he can also use retry clocks and I imagine it should be on a comparable level to the range Bowser can travel to in terms of sending him back.
does Bowser use the retry clock to do that? also is that accepted by the wiki in the profiles?
 
The game gives a separate pair of gloves to allow 1-ups to be passive but I’m sure that’s just to balance them out, considering they’re passive in every non-RPG game.
 
That’s cause having infinite passive revives in an RPG would break the game.
Or maybe that it works like you say it does. Seriously, why can you accept things that aren't show for Mario, but not Sonic? You can accept Mario doesn't need to eat the mushroom despite the same game forcing him to, but you can't accept Sonic's Magic Hands making someone unconcious?
 
Because Mario’s 1-up mushrooms are passive in almost every game, the small handful of instances in the RPGs don’t stack up.

And Mario should probably counter sealing in base, he isn’t sealed when touching black ooze.
 
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