The Stalker vs Sakuya Izayoi (Hopefully a good Stalker match for once)

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Essentially, they need to get the power the first time and it is always on after that. He has to winde time forward or it just stays stopped. If you wanna go into the semantics on if that is passive or not, then go ahead, but it fills the exact same roll as other passive abilities

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

@Saikou

Bad wording. I meant she erases Stalker. Point is, I don't think this Tier 10 stands a chance against Sakuya.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Her EE is why this isn't a stomp. She can kill the stalker with that, but he is more likely to destroy her before then with other hax

 

[Theglassman12]

@Iapitus dude, it doesn't fit the roll of passive. He has to use his stopwatch to do the time hax to begin with, AKA, something that's not a passive ability.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I'm guessing the only way he can win is possession?

Cause I don't see anything else. And even then Sakuya still has better control over time and likely counters on the offside that it is passive.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Not really lol. Not unless we assume that all the stalker fights take place right at the start of the game when he hasn't turned on the watch before. I made it under the profile under the assumption that this was not the case. Unless he let's time move forward, it stand still. Call it passive or something else, but other than the very first time when he got it, all the fights start with him already having used the watch before

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I'm guessing the only way he can win is possession?
Cause I don't see anything else. And even then Sakuya still has better control over time and likely counters on the offside that it is passive.

She may be able to touch souls, but does she resist soul manip? Also, our friends here seem to think time paradoxing would work on her despite her immense time manip

 

[Theglassman12]

@Iapitus considering that the stalker never was a non-corporeal spirit from the get go and had to get to that state via activating the stopwatch, I doubt he'd start right off the bat as a non-corporeal state with passive timestop

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

First off, he isn't non corporeal so far as I can tell. He became the spirit the first time, but after that it became his natural state, until his powers got taken away from him. We see in the bad ending that the spirit form indeed became and his default form.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I honestly feel like that time stop being the default in-game is just game mechanics, and not that the character just spends his normal time in stopped time.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

While I could see that being possible for the PC version, the Phone version is clear. The PC version is basically displayed as a rewind button, a pause button, and a play button. The phone version, however, has a button to move time forward and a button to move time back. I would not put it past it being the default state, especially since the whole point of the device is basically an outside force observing and making minor changes. He is not a participant.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Are you just arguing off controls now? Especially controls for a mobile game that might just want to simplify them due to the support it's on? Honestly not enough for me.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

No, not any more then you are arguing that it is a gameplay mechanic. I'm saying that the way the powers are portrayed points to the more modern one being passive. So long as he has the watch, time remains standing still unless he clicks the button to make it move forward. The functions of the PC game imply he is haunting time multiple times, unlike the Phone version

The original game for the PC was made back befofe 2012/13 on an old version of rpg maker and tbh has aged terribly. The newer version for the phone runs much cleaner and is over all higher quality.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

bump

 

[Apatheticskell]

Vote?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Please do

 

[Apatheticskell]

What is the vote score and I voted stalker.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

You have to provide more concrete reasoning than that. And no FRA when no one is voting for stalker. Very doubtful on gameplay mechanics being fully translated into a power btw..

 

[Apatheticskell]

I provided reasons for him.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It wasn't provided from Gameplay, it was from how control of the watch was presented. If a character is constantly destroying people with gravity aura and you don't need to click a button, then you can draw a conclusion that the gravity aura is passive

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Bump

 

[Arkhilean]

Yeah, I honestly think its a thing that Sakuya takes for the same reasons as COB stated. Not to mention both use the watch for time stopping, and if that's the case and you wish to say that the stalker starts with it activated then it is completely fair to say Sakuya would be in the same state. However that's not exactly how watches work, and usually all matches start before hacks are activated. Not to mention Sakuya has the advantage of being able to summon multiple of herselves compared to the stalker thanks to her abilities. Not to mention being able to outpace him with her own space-time hacks even with speed equalized.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Time stop is his default state, but it is perfectly fine for her to time stop and move on her own. How would she outpace him with speed equalised?

 

[Arkhilean]

Time stop is his default state, but it is perfectly fine for her to time stop and move on her own. How would she outpace him with speed equalised?

Because as others have said she has mastered time manip a "little" better than him. Little being what causes her space manip for the ability to make her movements between spaces faster while it'll take longer for him to get to point A to B. Its how she makes the mansion in EoD so big on the inside while on the outside its quite a bit smaller.

Not to mention, once again summoning multiples of herselves. Kinda hard to keep up with one with a hundred around you. Then there is the worry of whether or not he could even survive all of them, between both the anti human and spirit knives along with the fact sakuya can eliminate the past, present, and future of him which would be an easy way to kill him even with his acasuality being a thing thanks to that only saving him if his past dies. Oh yeah, then there is the worry of his watch being broken during this from one of the many many knives in the air while this all happening moving much faster than the poor guy thanks to space manip. Hell, if she wished to she could just accelerate his age to his death and kill his spirit.

Then there is the matter of him managing to touch her durability, as Killing her with her many clones is quite hard thanks to durability which he cant get past due to being human aside from possession, and that's assuming A) He can get past her clones and deal with them, B) Actually catches up, and C) Doesn't get destroyed in the process.

Oh, and have we mentioned she can fly and he can't. This means he has even more issues in human form and is forced to try to kill her in possession by using herself to kill herself assuming that its not mind manip in any way possible thanks to her resistance to that assuming he manages to get to her.

Also "It wasn't provided from Gameplay, it was from how control of the watch was presented." sir that is known as gameplay. Especially when comparing it from the phone while saying its only possible in the pc, which is the one to be considered more canon being the original unless said otherwise by its own creator. The phone version is always simplified due to space and storage limitations for most games.

Also, to the first part, that's not how that works. He would only have the watch's time stop activated if he had a reason for it. At the moment they both realize they are to fight, both will activate their ts instantly. but no sooner or later. This goes double for your char as the only reason he had timestopped in his game was so that he could edit events to deal with an issue. Otherwise, he would have it going to have a life. That's how logic works sadly. Unless you think he'd be the type to just stay in timestop for eternity and go mad that way for no reason, and then look at a random person and say "lets try stabbing them" to start this fight. As sakuya could do the same thing and he would never know. A vs battle assumes both are at the same ground initially and then immediately do what they would, otherwise heaven dio would be known for starting in ts as he lives on the idea of having an infinite timestop unlike your char who only needed it for an event. Its nothing like Heavy weather or MiH as it doesn't instantly activate without pressing a button. Unless you have a quote from the creatoran actual reason, headcanon means nothing here and you assume natural position.

Forgot to mention, but has the Stalker even showed the ability to possess someone who isn't himself. As those would be two separate abilities, and unless he has shown the ability to possess people who aren't his past selves he can't possess others. Asking since I remembered something about this being said in the diavolo thread

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Why you gotta drop 7 books of the old testiment for 2 sentences?

Either way, I'll respond in a bit

 

[Arkhilean]

Its merely how I usually discuss. If I notice something I comment about it. I feel like I haven't made it long enough for how this thread is with you defending the stalker

(probably'll make it tenfold as long over at the heaven ascent dio thread later)

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

snip

Skill with time hax does not equate to outpacing. Not sure where you got that idea from.

She isn't gremmy, summoning multiple of her doesn't make her hax any better. More of her just pushes him towards his paradox win con more. The erasure of past is not on her profile. Space manip doesn't result in increased speed. Breaking the watch would usually auto reverse time, but if she does actually succesfully break it then she gets BFR'd into the void. Time accel won't work in time stop

Her durability was never an issue due to hax. Him getting destroyed doesn't matter due to the rewind.

Possession is distinct from mind manip. Also, flight is fun but so is a time paradox.

How you play a game and how the controls are presented are 2 different things. I made the profile based on the phone version anyway so it doesn't exactly matter. The computer version which came out years prior has other differences too. However, the newer one with more endings, content, and different charcter tweeks would supercede, if you want to try and hold up which is "more canon."

Nope, unless he lets time flow time will stand still. Time Stop is his defaut enviroment.

"This goes double for your char as the only reason he had timestopped in his game was so that he could edit events to deal with an issue. Otherwise, he would have it going to have a life."

Why or how characters have powers don't matter in VS battles. Ghost of Christmas Future, Barney, Baldi, Stupendeous man, Cueball, Misa, Monika, Game&Watch, The Magic School Bus, etc. have powers for very different reasons and weren't meant for direct combat if for combat at all. We don't stop people from using their powers just because they weren't meant for combat.

" Unless you think he'd be the type to just stay in timestop for eternity and go mad that way for no reason, and then look at a random person and say "lets try stabbing them" to start this fight. As sakuya could do the same thing and he would never know. "

Never claimed he was that type, but I bloodlusted him because he isn't the type to jump in guns blazing anyway.

The Jojo thing is its own issue, and we can talk about that on its own thread.

" Unless you have a quote from the creatoran actual reason, headcanon means nothing here and you assume natural position. "

We don't work off word of God all the time here, and there are other kinds of proof. i am working off of portrayal, which is completely valid

 

[Arkhilean]

Skill with time hax does not equate to outpacing. Not sure where you got that idea from.

She isn't gremmy, summoning multiple of her doesn't make her hax any better. More of her just pushes him towards his paradox win con more. The erasure of past is not on her profile. Space manip doesn't result in increased speed. Breaking the watch would usually auto reverse time, but if she does actually succesfully break it then she gets BFR'd into the void. Time accel won't work in time stop

Her durability was never an issue due to hax. Him getting destroyed doesn't matter due to the rewind.

Possession is distinct from mind manip. Also, flight is fun but so is a time paradox.

How you play a game and how the controls are presented are 2 different things. I made the profile based on the phone version anyway so it doesn't exactly matter. The computer version which came out years prior has other differences too. However, the newer one with more endings, content, and different charcter tweeks would supercede, if you want to try and hold up which is "more canon."

Nope, unless he lets time flow time will stand still. Time Stop is his defaut enviroment.

"This goes double for your char as the only reason he had timestopped in his game was so that he could edit events to deal with an issue. Otherwise, he would have it going to have a life."

Why or how characters have powers don't matter in VS battles. Ghost of Christmas Future, Barney, Baldi, Stupendeous man, Cueball, Misa, Monika, Game&Watch, The Magic School Bus, etc. have powers for very different reasons and weren't meant for direct combat if for combat at all. We don't stop people from using their powers just because they weren't meant for combat.

" Unless you think he'd be the type to just stay in timestop for eternity and go mad that way for no reason, and then look at a random person and say "lets try stabbing them" to start this fight. As sakuya could do the same thing and he would never know. "

Never claimed he was that type, but I bloodlusted him because he isn't the type to jump in guns blazing anyway.

The Jojo thing is its own issue, and we can talk about that on its own thread.

" Unless you have a quote from the creatoran actual reason, headcanon means nothing here and you assume natural position. "

We don't work off word of God all the time here, and there are other kinds of proof. i am working off of portrayal, which is completely valid

Time-space had. The difference is her being able to get to point A to E in the time it takes for stalker to get to point A to B even with speed equilized thanks to space had via time distortion. Don't know where you got the idea that didn't work.

You're right, it just makes it so she can use more had at a time and also make it much harder for him to reach his goal via having more things for him to kill. Not to mention if he screws up shell benefit it from it via her intelligence, sight of him, and understanding how he works thanks to his weak hax compared to anything else in the touhou verse. Also, might you specify if it's just the version who breaks it that gets bfrd or everyone in the radius, in which he gets screwed again.

Also, you going back to space manip doesn't equal speed. Go to a fate extra ccc tamamo discussion and come back here after hearing them all explain how it works. You get a better understanding of how outpacing works once you start reading chars with actual hacks.

Go to existence Erasure and you'll see she erases the time of an object. Do any research on this be it on discussions here where it's mentioned in multiple discussion with her or look at the touhou itself to realize that is. Once again, you're missing research and understanding

Rewind honestly is a pretty weak ability, yes he can do it but once again, doesn't matter if time is erased. He may be acasual, but that only means his present self isn't affected when his past self is killed. He can't rewind to his past self if it's erased from time.

You missed the point of that paragraph. It's in char for him to not have timestop constantly on unless he needs to interfere with something which is why his tablet is as passive as anyone else's who isn't beyond time dimension, which is to say not at all. Because of this, he has to start at time resume like any other timestopper.

Bloodlusted has nothing to affect that as it would only affect him the moment he entered battle, not before. Once again, you being bias towards the char you made a profile for and started putting against everything.

While portrayal is helpful, unless you've seen how he is portrayed after the event and it's him in timestop the entire time, it wouldn't be an accurate portrayal.

Also, going back to the part I edited in earlier, did.he ever possess anyone other than himself. As that isn't true position and is something else entirely if not.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Time-space had. The difference is her being able to get to point A to E in the time it takes for stalker to get to point A to B even with speed equilized thanks to space had via time distortion. Don't know where you got the idea that didn't work.

You're right, it just makes it so she can use more had at a time and also make it much harder for him to reach his goal via having more things for him to kill. Not to mention if he screws up shell benefit it from it via her intelligence, sight of him, and understanding how he works thanks to his weak hax compared to anything else in the touhou verse. Also, might you specify if it's just the version who breaks it that gets bfrd or everyone in the radius, in which he gets screwed again.

Also, you going back to space manip doesn't equal speed. Go to a fate extra ccc tamamo discussion and come back here after hearing them all explain how it works. You get a better understanding of how outpacing works once you start reading chars with actual hacks.

Go to existence Erasure and you'll see she erases the time of an object. Do any research on this be it on discussions here where it's mentioned in multiple discussion with her or look at the touhou itself to realize that is. Once again, you're missing research and understanding

Rewind honestly is a pretty weak ability, yes he can do it but once again, doesn't matter if time is erased. He may be acasual, but that only means his present self isn't affected when his past self is killed. He can't rewind to his past self if it's erased from time.

You missed the point of that paragraph. It's in char for him to not have timestop constantly on unless he needs to interfere with something which is why his tablet is as passive as anyone else's who isn't beyond time dimension, which is to say not at all. Because of this, he has to start at time resume like any other timestopper.

Bloodlusted has nothing to affect that as it would only affect him the moment he entered battle, not before. Once again, you being bias towards the char you made a profile for and started putting against everything.

While portrayal is helpful, unless you've seen how he is portrayed after the event and it's him in timestop the entire time, it wouldn't be an accurate portrayal.

Also, going back to the part I edited in earlier, did.he ever possess anyone other than himself. As that isn't true position and is something else entirely if not.

Time dilation doesn't help in time stop. You are the one who brought up her being "better" than him at time manip skill wise

Time paradox doesn't really matter on the number of targets. He ain't gonna go for possession when many of her are running up on him, he would only go for that if she didn't have her clones up. Not sure why you bringing up the hax of other touhou characters as an example of strength. I could understand complexity and analysis, but not "strength." How the BFR works is that when the watch gets broken, the reaper gets pissed and sends those who he sees as responsible, which in this case would be the billions of sakuya clones chucking knives at him.

Not sure what you mean by space time manip not equalling speed. I know about hax dude. Fate, Jojo, Medaka Box, etc. are my thing. Tamamo and CCC in general are just ass so i don't touch it. Saver and Nero are cool tho. Also, in case you didn't notice, all of The Stalker matches are against dudes several tier above him because there is literally one dude in his tier who can have a good match with him and that's it.

I saw existence erasure, and the profile doesn't talk about erasing the past. There are plenty of examples of profiles I disagree with on interpritation, but sadly we argue from the profiles or the implications there of unless it is a given exception, such as revisions being underway. If you got scans of her erasing a dude from past present and future, then by all means, lets get the profile updated

Once she can erase him from the past, then we can talk about it being useless. As strange says, "its a simple spell, but quite unbreakable."

Even if the battle starts with him windeing time forward, that's not his default. In The Stalker's default state, if he does nothing, time will not move. Characters start at their default. The Stalker's powers work like Cueball's. Since they have to will for time to move forward, or motion to function, then their default is not for The Stalker to be windeing time forward or Cueball pushing his rocks. Not every character's default is their space/time hax not working.

His default is time being stopped, so yes. He starts in his default, just like any other character. I never claimed bloodlust would effect him before the battle anyway. Saying I'm biased has nothing to do with my argument. If we wanna play that game, I could talk about your obvious biases but I won't.

Yeah, we have seen how he was portrayed after the event. Once he learned the leason he was supposed to learn, the reaper who gave it to him slapped that shit out of his hands and disabled his powers. However, as we saw with the cat using the watch's powers for its own use in some of his other games, it does not need to be only used for that. His form without the powers is, what this wiki would call, "too normal" to warrent a key or profile. Him being in time stop unless he moves it forward is completely accurate to the portrayal within the game.

No, he didn't possess anyone other than his past self. But that is still possession, so what's the issue?

 

[Arkhilean]

So I'm just going to start with the issue of the "possession." If he hasn't shown to be able to possess others, that's not an issue of an in character thing. It's a question of if he's even able to do it. You could be able to possess your past self because it's your same soul, or your just giving them the same memories and such that you had so you could play off with being him. There are many different ways it can play out, but for all we understand that would only me he can possess himself. Which means he has no way of possessing Sakura as he has been shown in Canon(which makes this case null and void)

And I stand by my case that she is better at it than him. He can only stop, resume and rewind. Compare that to everything she has been shown to do along with the amount of time each has had to use their abilities. She has more experience and control over her ability with much more effect to her powers. Hence me saying she's better at it than him.

Now then, for time dilation to not be effective in time stop is to say she could move about the mansion normally in timestop since time dilation should "have no effect". However in touhou Canon along with gameplay this has no effect meaning she can quite easily manipulate space using time in timestop.

Now here's the question for the bfr that actually matters, would the reaper live past all the knives considering that they are anti body and spirit. While normally he could bfr to void, could he tank it via feats assuming he sees all of them in the first place. If he survives then that might have a chance.

I mean space time manip doesn't equal speed just as I day. Cutting down the distance between two areas for yourself is not saying your traveling faster. It's just saying your travelling a shorter distance while your opponent takes the longer route. Tamamo (bringing them up again and explaining it since they show it off the best) returns from bfr in CCC by removing the distance between herself and the fiht in the mooncell and walking forward. This isn't saying she speed blitzed to there, just that she was able to walk the distance that she easily reduced.

Once again, do research for the existence Erasure otherwise you are just going to know that time is erased in general. Can't say it doesn't say it if you don't look for the specifics of what they mean by erasing their time. Not something that takes much time so you shouldn't have much reason to be stubborn on it.

You keep saying it is not his default, but the only time you saw him use it was in a period of time where he required it to be stopped. If you had proof beyond that, I'd believe it to be his default more than currently. Also do bring up my biases. I have no problems seeing what you think explaining each part of it then going straight to how you've been treating your bias to this char in the discussions I've read this far.

So after the event htere is no portrayal for how he would use his powers on a normal day. Got it.