The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread

[ProfectusInfinity]

Speaking of, any DC fans, since there's a Sentry v Superboy-Prime soon... I've noticed that we have a note for the later to not scale him to Darkest Knight, etc, etc. But did it ever change, and did he showed this level of power after all? He does seem to be able to shatter reality in thw latest comics at least.

There were discussions about changing that and upgrading him on the DC thread, but I don't remember anyone addressing the note.

 

[Executor_N0]

What do you think should be done about it?

I don't know. This is more of a community problem of having to figure out a solution that many can agree with for enough time (After all, how many times has the entire cosmology been revised by mostly just swapping an interpretation that was already known, but not accepted, but then became more accepted when more members favoring it started to appear?). I don't have a horse in this race other than hoping to see less destructive communities (This goes beyond battleboarding as well).

If anything, I think it could be good to just be aware of the actual circumstances when making these decisions that sometimes overwrite the stories (Which become a necessity no matter what with franchises like this one). Sometimes I see users acting as if there's "only one truth" or "if you think differently, you're wrong", and I don't see how that is useful to anything other than creating heated debates that sometimes go too far into a destructive direction.

Having a favorite version of the cosmology and preferring to study the material that favors it is fine; this is how many religions were founded in the real world, but being aware of the material that doesn't fit could be helpful, if anything, to simply disregard it in the long run instead of having to constantly come up with explanations for why it could fit.

Like, there's a lot in Ayodele's Storm that doesn't work with the current accepted cosmology here, even on a foundational basis (How much of it is the story changing scope or Ayodele not being truthful about the direction he wanted to go from the start is beyond our knowledge as far as I know), but some of it is also present in many other comics by other authors as well, so ignoring it is a more general on-going effort (Until the point in which most of the major active books contradict past accepted parameters and I think that is when there's a big push to change the cosmology).

 

[AcidSilver]

Like, there's a lot in Ayodele's Storm that doesn't work with the current accepted cosmology here, even on a foundational basis (How much of it is the story changing scope or Ayodele not being truthful about the direction he wanted to go from the start is beyond our knowledge as far as I know)

A Marvel writer not caring about and/or not respecting established cosmology and powerlevels in order to make their chosen character look super cool as they effortlessly beat everyone who poses a threat to them? I've totally never seen that before.

cough cough Starlin's Thanos cough cough Orlando's Wanda cough cough Ewing's Storm cough cough

 

[MrKerf]

Don’t disrespect Starlin’s Thanos. Starlin was at least a good writer and artist, and Thanos Saga has this cool old school vibe about it.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanos was a massively amoral, nihilistic, supremacist, hollow, boring, and casually genocidal Villain Sue power trip that systematically banalised everything spiritually good and holy into a personal absolutely ego-focused obsessive totalitarian power grab. I personally absolutely could not stand either him or his writer to a far greater degree than the other mentioned examples, who at least featured characters with some degree of ethics.

 

[Antvasima]

By the way, I remembered that Ewing's recent claims of Thor never having been rendered powerless before, and thereby had to earn his status as a hero to a greater degree, are inaccurate. Thor was also rendered powerless after the Worldengine storyline, although Peter David's Hulk and Heroes Reborn interrupted Thor's own story at the time. I also vaguely recall that Thor and Brunnhilde the Valkyrie were turned into mortal lovers in a story, but as I said, that is vague.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Thanos was a massively amoral, nihilistic, supremacist, hollow, boring, and casually genocidal Villain Sue power trip that systematically banalised everything spiritually good and holy into a personal absolutely ego-focused obsessive totalitarian power grab. I personally absolutely could not stand either him or his writer to a far greater degree than the other mentioned examples, who at least featured characters with some degree of ethics.

Damn, the strong evil villain is strong, very evil, and villainous!

Impossible! There's no way humanity have been making strong evil villains since the dawn of living religion over 4000 years ago!

 

[Antvasima]

There is a massive difference between making a satanically evil villain into a threat to overcome while still condemning everything he stands for, and the writer himself admitting sympathising with said villain to such an enormous degree that his megalomaniacal, genocidal, morally nihilistic god complex is twisted into an ideal to strive towards for the readers.

And to quote Kurt Busiek, Thanos bores me. He is an extremely repetitive hollow absolute power trip, and that's it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

There is a massive difference between making a satanically evil villain into a threat to overcome, and the writer himself admitting sympathising with said villain to such an enormous degree that his megalomaniacal, genocidal, morally nihilistic god complex is twisted into an ideal to strive towards for the readers.

When you write something, you either sympathize with it, or it's a thought that was in your head, at least generally. So yeah, I can see that happening, but until you apply this to every single writer, from Stan Lee to Oda, you're just being biased.

 

[Antvasima]

I am saying that I saw Starlin admit himself that he heavily sympathises with Thanos, and that it was also massively obvious from his so-called "storytelling"/extremely repetitive egomaniacal power-tripping.

Also, I do have a much more wide-reaching general condemnation towards all forms of genuinely evil propaganda than just Starlin alone. See the examples below for example.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima#The_types_of_stories_that_I_disapprove_of

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Antvasima/Vile_Fables_For_Progressive_Children

 

[Antvasima]

As for Stan Lee, he did "nuke the commies back to the stone age"-style propaganda, along with heavy support of the military-industrial complex, racist distortions of Asians, embedded Galactus' social-Darwinian might makes right to serial-genocidal degrees conceptual basis into Marvel Comics lore, which irreversibly enormously corrupted it, said that there is nothing wrong with Doctor Doom wanting to assume tyrannical leadership of the world, systematically took virtually all public credit from his collaborators, and heavily crafted a setting calculated to breed addiction rather than enjoyment in children through completely incoherent storytelling without a beginning, middle, and end.

However, I think that he also did good things for representation of African-Americans and women, and worked against racism elsewhere as well.

Oda on the other hand has heavily promoted a reconnection to all of our most humane and positive qualities, such as freedom, joy, friendship, kindness, empathy, hope, love, tolerance, and bravery in opposition against extreme cruelty, lies, and tyranny. Why should I condemn him in any way for dedicating his life to helping humanity through genuinely positive inspiration?

 

[DaReaperMan]

As for Stan Lee, he did "nuke the commies back to the stone age"-style propaganda, along with heavy support of the military-industrial complex, racist distortions of Asians, embedded Galactus' social-Darwinian might makes right to serial-genocidal degrees conceptual basis into Marvel Comics lore, which irreversibly enormously corrupted it, said that there is nothing wrong with Doctor Doom wanting to assume tyrannical leadership of the world, systematically took virtually all public credit from his collaborators, and heavily crafted a setting calculated to breed addiction rather than enjoyment in children through completely incoherent storytelling without a beginning, middle, and end.

However, I think that he also did good things for representation of African-Americans and women, and working against racism elsewhere as well.

Oda on the other hand has heavily promoted a reconnection to all of our most humane and positive qualities, such as freedom, joy, friendship, kindness, empathy, hope, love, tolerance, and bravery in opposition against extreme cruelty, lies, and tyranny. Why should I condemn him in any way for dedicating his life to helping humanity through genuinely positive inspiration?

Every single One Piece villain from Buggy to Imu. Villains that are heinous are not, and never will be, a bad thing. It's just part of who people are, and trying to suppress that constantly is how bad things happen. Why do you think characters that are practically pure evil like Kaidou exist? It's not because the person writing them is a bad person. It's because everyone is capable of good and evil, and it's up to them to define it. If someone writes a villain who they consider evil, then that's THEIR view of evil.

Hell, depiction even matters-- My Little Pony to my knowledge has basically all it's villains be redeemable. That cements the writer's view that the worst people can change if they want to change. Or hell, some writers have fun with it like with Masters of the Universe and Skeletor. Horrible things are just a part of who people are, and if writting an utter love-obsessed psycho like Thanos is how people get away from the intrusive thoughts, that's fine to me.

But hey, there's no right answer, and saying otherwise generates Absolute Order... and Absolute Order is Absolute Evil

 

[Antvasima]

I do not anywhere close to support absolute tyrannical order, just opposition to an extremely corrupt status quo.

I am just saying that there is an enormous difference between actively encouraging people to be evil and actively encouraging them to embrace their better natures, but the best thing of all is if everybody get rid of all of our indoctrination altogether, since, as far as I have understood, that is walking on the path towards Enlightenment which results in oneness with the All-Love itself, so if everybody did that it would result in an enormously kinder and more well-functioning world.

 

[AcidSilver]

Don’t disrespect Starlin’s Thanos. Starlin was at least a good writer and artist, and Thanos Saga has this cool old school vibe about it.

Look when Starlin is good, he’s good. But in recent years his Thanos led books tend to be “and then Thanos wins” to the point where he wrote him beating The One Above All. You gotta admit that he can wank the shit out of Thanos.