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There were discussions about changing that and upgrading him on the DC thread, but I don't remember anyone addressing the note.
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The Revenant Marvel Comics Discussion Thread
- Thread starter The_Impress
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- marvel comics
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I don't know. This is more of a community problem of having to figure out a solution that many can agree with for enough time (After all, how many times has the entire cosmology been revised by mostly just swapping an interpretation that was already known, but not accepted, but then became more accepted when more members favoring it started to appear?). I don't have a horse in this race other than hoping to see less destructive communities (This goes beyond battleboarding as well).
If anything, I think it could be good to just be aware of the actual circumstances when making these decisions that sometimes overwrite the stories (Which become a necessity no matter what with franchises like this one). Sometimes I see users acting as if there's "only one truth" or "if you think differently, you're wrong", and I don't see how that is useful to anything other than creating heated debates that sometimes go too far into a destructive direction.
Having a favorite version of the cosmology and preferring to study the material that favors it is fine; this is how many religions were founded in the real world, but being aware of the material that doesn't fit could be helpful, if anything, to simply disregard it in the long run instead of having to constantly come up with explanations for why it could fit.
Like, there's a lot in Ayodele's Storm that doesn't work with the current accepted cosmology here, even on a foundational basis (How much of it is the story changing scope or Ayodele not being truthful about the direction he wanted to go from the start is beyond our knowledge as far as I know), but some of it is also present in many other comics by other authors as well, so ignoring it is a more general on-going effort (Until the point in which most of the major active books contradict past accepted parameters and I think that is when there's a big push to change the cosmology).
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A Marvel writer not caring about and/or not respecting established cosmology and powerlevels in order to make their chosen character look super cool as they effortlessly beat everyone who poses a threat to them? I've totally never seen that before.
cough cough Starlin's Thanos cough cough Orlando's Wanda cough cough Ewing's Storm cough cough
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Thanos was a massively amoral, nihilistic, supremacist, hollow, boring, and casually genocidal Villain Sue power trip that systematically banalised everything spiritually good and holy into a personal absolutely ego-focused obsessive totalitarian power grab. I personally absolutely could not stand either him or his writer to a far greater degree than the other mentioned examples, who at least featured characters with some degree of ethics. 
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By the way, I remembered that Ewing's recent claims of Thor never having been rendered powerless before, and thereby had to earn his status as a hero to a greater degree, are inaccurate. Thor was also rendered powerless after the Worldengine storyline, although Peter David's Hulk and Heroes Reborn interrupted Thor's own story at the time. I also vaguely recall that Thor and Brunnhilde the Valkyrie were turned into mortal lovers in a story, but as I said, that is vague.
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Damn, the strong evil villain is strong, very evil, and villainous!Thanos was a massively amoral, nihilistic, supremacist, hollow, boring, and casually genocidal Villain Sue power trip that systematically banalised everything spiritually good and holy into a personal absolutely ego-focused obsessive totalitarian power grab. I personally absolutely could not stand either him or his writer to a far greater degree than the other mentioned examples, who at least featured characters with some degree of ethics.
Impossible! There's no way humanity have been making strong evil villains since the dawn of living religion over 4000 years ago!
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There is a massive difference between making a satanically evil villain into a threat to overcome while still condemning everything he stands for, and the writer himself admitting sympathising with said villain to such an enormous degree that his megalomaniacal, genocidal, morally nihilistic god complex is twisted into an ideal to strive towards for the readers.
And to quote Kurt Busiek, Thanos bores me. He is an extremely repetitive hollow absolute power trip, and that's it.
And to quote Kurt Busiek, Thanos bores me. He is an extremely repetitive hollow absolute power trip, and that's it.
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When you write something, you either sympathize with it, or it's a thought that was in your head, at least generally. So yeah, I can see that happening, but until you apply this to every single writer, from Stan Lee to Oda, you're just being biased.There is a massive difference between making a satanically evil villain into a threat to overcome, and the writer himself admitting sympathising with said villain to such an enormous degree that his megalomaniacal, genocidal, morally nihilistic god complex is twisted into an ideal to strive towards for the readers.
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I am saying that I saw Starlin admit himself that he heavily sympathises with Thanos, and that it was also massively obvious from his so-called "storytelling"/extremely repetitive egomaniacal power-tripping.
Also, I do have a much more wide-reaching general condemnation towards all forms of genuinely evil propaganda than just Starlin alone. See the examples below for example.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima#The_types_of_stories_that_I_disapprove_of
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Antvasima/Vile_Fables_For_Progressive_Children
Also, I do have a much more wide-reaching general condemnation towards all forms of genuinely evil propaganda than just Starlin alone. See the examples below for example.
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Antvasima#The_types_of_stories_that_I_disapprove_of
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Antvasima/Vile_Fables_For_Progressive_Children
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As for Stan Lee, he did "nuke the commies back to the stone age"-style propaganda, along with heavy support of the military-industrial complex, racist distortions of Asians, embedded Galactus' social-Darwinian might makes right to serial-genocidal degrees conceptual basis into Marvel Comics lore, which irreversibly enormously corrupted it, said that there is nothing wrong with Doctor Doom wanting to assume tyrannical leadership of the world, systematically took virtually all public credit from his collaborators, and heavily crafted a setting calculated to breed addiction rather than enjoyment in children through completely incoherent storytelling without a beginning, middle, and end.
However, I think that he also did good things for representation of African-Americans and women, and worked against racism elsewhere as well.
Oda on the other hand has heavily promoted a reconnection to all of our most humane and positive qualities, such as freedom, joy, friendship, kindness, empathy, hope, love, tolerance, and bravery in opposition against extreme cruelty, lies, and tyranny. Why should I condemn him in any way for dedicating his life to helping humanity through genuinely positive inspiration?
However, I think that he also did good things for representation of African-Americans and women, and worked against racism elsewhere as well.
Oda on the other hand has heavily promoted a reconnection to all of our most humane and positive qualities, such as freedom, joy, friendship, kindness, empathy, hope, love, tolerance, and bravery in opposition against extreme cruelty, lies, and tyranny. Why should I condemn him in any way for dedicating his life to helping humanity through genuinely positive inspiration?
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Every single One Piece villain from Buggy to Imu. Villains that are heinous are not, and never will be, a bad thing. It's just part of who people are, and trying to suppress that constantly is how bad things happen. Why do you think characters that are practically pure evil like Kaidou exist? It's not because the person writing them is a bad person. It's because everyone is capable of good and evil, and it's up to them to define it. If someone writes a villain who they consider evil, then that's THEIR view of evil.As for Stan Lee, he did "nuke the commies back to the stone age"-style propaganda, along with heavy support of the military-industrial complex, racist distortions of Asians, embedded Galactus' social-Darwinian might makes right to serial-genocidal degrees conceptual basis into Marvel Comics lore, which irreversibly enormously corrupted it, said that there is nothing wrong with Doctor Doom wanting to assume tyrannical leadership of the world, systematically took virtually all public credit from his collaborators, and heavily crafted a setting calculated to breed addiction rather than enjoyment in children through completely incoherent storytelling without a beginning, middle, and end.
However, I think that he also did good things for representation of African-Americans and women, and working against racism elsewhere as well.
Oda on the other hand has heavily promoted a reconnection to all of our most humane and positive qualities, such as freedom, joy, friendship, kindness, empathy, hope, love, tolerance, and bravery in opposition against extreme cruelty, lies, and tyranny. Why should I condemn him in any way for dedicating his life to helping humanity through genuinely positive inspiration?
Hell, depiction even matters-- My Little Pony to my knowledge has basically all it's villains be redeemable. That cements the writer's view that the worst people can change if they want to change. Or hell, some writers have fun with it like with Masters of the Universe and Skeletor. Horrible things are just a part of who people are, and if writting an utter love-obsessed psycho like Thanos is how people get away from the intrusive thoughts, that's fine to me.
But hey, there's no right answer, and saying otherwise generates Absolute Order... and Absolute Order is Absolute Evil
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I do not anywhere close to support absolute tyrannical order, just opposition to an extremely corrupt status quo.
I am just saying that there is an enormous difference between actively encouraging people to be evil and actively encouraging them to embrace their better natures, but the best thing of all is if everybody get rid of all of our indoctrination altogether, since, as far as I have understood, that is walking on the path towards Enlightenment which results in oneness with the All-Love itself, so if everybody did that it would result in an enormously kinder and more well-functioning world.
I am just saying that there is an enormous difference between actively encouraging people to be evil and actively encouraging them to embrace their better natures, but the best thing of all is if everybody get rid of all of our indoctrination altogether, since, as far as I have understood, that is walking on the path towards Enlightenment which results in oneness with the All-Love itself, so if everybody did that it would result in an enormously kinder and more well-functioning world.
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Look when Starlin is good, he’s good. But in recent years his Thanos led books tend to be “and then Thanos wins” to the point where he wrote him beating The One Above All. You gotta admit that he can wank the shit out of Thanos.
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So, I've been looking at Thor's profile recently and I have a couple questions regarding his High 3-A AP statistic.
Second of all, the cosmology page for Marvel Comics states multiple times that Asgard is a higher dimension and is beyond time and space, which should place it at Low 1-C, if I'm not mistaken. If this is the case, why was the Low 1-C statistic removed for Thor shaking Asgard?
First of all, wouldn't "a machine that could collapse infinite timelines into one" be a 2-A feat rather than High 3-A?
Second of all, the cosmology page for Marvel Comics states multiple times that Asgard is a higher dimension and is beyond time and space, which should place it at Low 1-C, if I'm not mistaken. If this is the case, why was the Low 1-C statistic removed for Thor shaking Asgard?
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Asgard is low 1-A now, which is an outlier for normal herald tier characters, plus there’s the fact that Thor shouldn’t be the one who all the feats come from since he varies, so the low 1-C characters were downgraded to high 3-A, Thor just never got his justifications fixed
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Doesn't really explain the reasoning for High 3-A, especially when "a machine that could collapse infinite timelines into one" sounds like a Multiverse level+ feat.
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Asgard is currently accepted as Low 1-A. Thor is currently in the process of being upgraded, he will be Low 1-A at peak after it based on those feats.
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But isn't he already Low 1-A at peak?
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His universe shaking feats and him scaling to high herald tier characters are what’s high 3-A, like I said before Thor just never got his justifications fixed
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Don't really see how this equates to High 3-A. What was the reasoning for that?
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Shaking the universe feats are what’s high 3-A
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But he already has a 3-C calculation for shaking the universe. And aren't there multiple universes in the universe as shown in the cosmology page?
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That calculation is from when we treated the marvel universe as finite, we currently treat it as infinite, and no individual universes don’t have multiple universes in them, earth 616 has multiple universes in it, it’s just a common misconception and/or miswording that earth 616 is a universe
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Beyonder’s statements are referring to earth 616 not just the universe, because it should be self evident that a universe can’t be multiple universes, watcher is referring to the fact that a single universe creates other universes he’s not saying that the created universes are contained within the original universe, the universes inside Atoms thing gets negated by reality equalization
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Beyonder (Hulk #312 + Secret Wars II context, post-retcon applicable via Guardians #35/38) describes the universe he looks into (the 616/Eternity reality with Earth, heroes, etc.) as “many-layered… a multiverse composed of a seemingly endless number of dimensions and planes of reality;” the universes in the Marvel Cosmology are treated as Low 2-C to High 1-B, and the purpose of Reality Equalization is to equalize pockets for fair fights, not erase the canon hierarchy or make the statement invalid. Plus, the universes inside these atoms are shown to have their own galaxies and civilizations just like the Earth 616 timeline
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Yes. I think that feat should be moved to a later, higher, tier for Thor.
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I'm thinking I will go ahead and post my thread soon unless anyone has issues with its formatting or wants to add things. Please tell me if it is too messy or hard to understand or doesn't have enough scans to convey my point. When I do post it, should I post it in CRT or Staff Discussion?
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Hmm, seems alright, but it could use more work. I'm actually working on a CRT for the Marvel Comics Cosmology that adds missing important context and scans to the page; hmu if you're interested.
Tomfer
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I do recommend waiting, we have a few CRTs already opened that need attention right now since they're also important.
CRT should be fine.
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Since the current Thor thread is mostly Low 1-A/1-A, I was hoping to get it done before that concludes
Tomfer
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To be honest, that thread should also be on hold for the moment. Also, if there's any signs of derailing in your CRT, you can ask to be put on staff only immediately since it's a big marvel thread.
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during the revisions they simply changed low 1-C with High 3-A without changing anything else, so some profiles should be updated
MrKerf
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Idk what recent years are you talking about, his last story was in 2019. And yes, he can wank, but he does it endlessly better than any of the modern writers.
Plus Thanos always gets beaten fairly quickly. Unlike Wanda, who always comes back, or Storm, who never loses a fight.
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So should we fix this quickly?Yes. I think that feat should be moved to a later, higher, tier for Thor.
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Well, I even prefer a Mary Sue or Gary Stu over a Villain Sue.
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Well, Nightmare can exceed the power of Eternity, Death, or the Living Tribunal under special circumstances.
Doctor Strange's OTHER Nemesis Just Demolished Galactus and the Celestials
Doctor Strange's nemesis just destroyed some of Marvel's most powerful cosmic entities, including Galactus, Ego the Living Planet and the Celestials.
www.cbr.com
MrKerf
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Maybe I just apply harsher standards to the heroes.Well, I even prefer a Mary Sue or Gary Stu over a Villain Sue.
That sounds like Universal Eternity of the description
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