The Quest for Karn...'s stats

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

So now that most of MtG's god tiers have been more solidified, I think it's important we take another look at our friend Kar, here. Two major things need to be looked at. His AP and his Durability.

Now I don't know if we need to split pre and post-mending Karn's stats (because we know very little about post-mending Karn other than that he can casually reset the time of a universe), but some things do need to be added. First of all, it's probably good to keep his "At least 4-A" as the bare minimum of his power (because Karn's usually a pacifist and thus doesn't have a wide variety of combat showings), but add in "High 2-A with the Legacy". The Legacy was a series of artifacts created by Urza (including Karn himself), which when combined allowed Karn to wipe Yawgmoth off the face of the multiverse, for good. That should make the AP self explanatory.

For Karn's durability, he should just have straight up "High Multiverse level+" for obvious reasons (being able to contain the power to kill Yawgmoth, immunity to multiversal time rifts, being able to fight alongside many beings on a similar level to Nicol Bolas AND being one of the only survivors amongst said beings, etc.).

Thoughts?

 

[Macosten]

Yeah, that seems about right.

How much power Karn may have lost in the Mending isn't really something I know (I'm not sure if we ever go into detail about it).

Then again, since Karn absorbed part of the Weatherlight, shouldn't the collapsed Serra's Realm still be inside of him? Would that (containing a collapsed universe) bump his tier/durability up somehow? I don't know, but it makes sense that he would be Multiversal if that's the case (maybe even post-mending multiversal, or at least C-Universal, by technicality))

One of Karn's feats is sealing the Tolarian time rift... by going back 300 years before the events of Time Spiral and sealing it right after Barrin created it by obliterating Tolaria.

Karn's range should be at least Universal+, as the whole Mirari incident was due to the Mirari being corrupted with the Glistening Oil seeping out of Xantcha's Heartstone (that Urza gave to Karn) after he sent it to Dominaria to keep tabs on it (presumably while he was on Argentum). We don't know precisely where the Mirari is right now (presumably somewhere on New Phyrexia) or if he can still use it. It is possible, though.

Then he made the Mirari into Memnarch and the rest... is a story for another time. Poor Karn and his history of screwing things up.


Also, I see what you did there. Clever.

 

[Macosten]

Bumping this; we need more opinions.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Bumping this again, as I would like more opinions before changing anything.

 

[The_Everlasting]

This seems about right to me.

 

[ConsumingFire]

Well, Yawgmoth is currently listed at High 2-A and since Karn did contain the Legacy that wiped Yawg out it stands to reason that he should be around the same Tier. That and his card abilities already put him pretty high with his being able to exile things and manipulate time. Creating Argentum should put him in 3-A at the very least, but he's likely stronger than that. It's just difficult to gauge his strength since he's a pacifist.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems reasonable.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I have made the appropriate edits as well as added a second note to the page.