The necessity of Neutral/Opponents on a Verse page?

[ImmortalDread]

I will address the points later sis, it's 1 am but there are some points I agree with.

And for Ant's case, I am sure it was his own perspective.

 

[TheKingStrategist13]

Opponents usually denote being opposed to a verse. Aka, if you are listed as a opponent, then one would think that you may be inclined against the verse more than not. I feel that this is a heavily unnecessary label.

Not just unnecessary, in fact- But it can be easy for one's arguments to be discarded as bias due to being one such Opponent. Usually people on this forum are a bit more nuanced than just agreeing or disagreeing with a verse just because.

As such, I would think the removal of this system could be more beneficial than harmful. Though I understand the concerns of wanting to know who to ping for arguments against X thread. Maybe changing the section to simply be people to ping related to X kind of thread would be a good middle ground. Keeping the supposed function people seem to desire, yet removing any space to perceive someone as biased one way or the next. I just think that this Bias argument is actually a pretty genuine concern, and can realistically see something like that occur.


Edit: Just realized I'm using discord terminology too much LMAO. All instance of Ping is really just to mean Mention, ig

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I personally think it's still important to have a neutral and opponents section for each verse. When meeting new friends, I also like to know what things they dislike and what they're mixed about. Plus, IMO it overall show a stronger unbiased impact if an opponent agrees with an upgrade/disagrees with a downgrade. Same with supporters actually agreeing with a downgrade/disagreeing with an upgrade. And neutrals are usually the least biased debaters on average, key word being usually.

Also, what is something that concerns me is a stereotype that people are going to agree with every exaggerated upgrade they see just because they're supporters or agree with every picky downgrade they see just because they're opponents. Or people put themselves as opponents just because they dislike the statistics ratings rather than them disliking the verse for what it is. Supporter IMO just means they enjoy watching the shows/movies, reading the books, and playing the games while opponents means they dislike all those stuff. And neither should have any correlation to their opinions on their statistics ratings, powers, and abilities and/or how much they enjoy debating them within the Vs debating community. Though it is case by case for me, there do exist verses I wrote myself as neutral despite me overall liking it as a franchise more so than one I have listed myself as a supporter. And same with verses I have as neutral despite me overall considering it inferior to a verse I have myself listed as opponent since some verses I give mixed or average ratings I may either add or subtract supporter status due to how great and/or toxic the community is. But I always list myself as supporters for absolute favorite verses and opponents on absolute least favorite verses. There are verses where personally taste in quality wise that is closer to me being a supporter, but toxic community makes me lower it to neutral. And same with neutral quality can be changed to either supporter or opponent based on community. And even verses I consider below average I have listed myself as neutral may be either due to "So bad it's good" status or a surprisingly great community.

However, people can add their name to whatever based what they personally view supporters/opponents/neutral as. Everyone should list their name based on what they see as making them which, but I still personally think they should overall just let their taste in the works of art rather than their taste on the community or VSBW statistics ratings. But of course, no one can force their policy on other people; people shouldn't be going around forcing their name to be changed to opponent just because they have been agreeing with every downgrade they see or disagreeing with every upgrade they see. But all in all, the three things have too much purpose to just get rid of.

So I think we best keep all those sections.

 

[Jinx666]

I personally think it's still important to have a neutral and opponents section for each verse. When meeting new friends, I also like to know what things they dislike and what they're mixed about. Plus, IMO it overall show a stronger unbiased impact if an opponent agrees with an upgrade/disagrees with a downgrade. Same with supporters actually agreeing with a downgrade/disagreeing with an upgrade. And neutrals are usually the least biased debaters on average, key word being usually.

I'm not sure why this has to be shown on a public page as opposed to a user's profile. Whether a person likes or dislikes a series is irrelevant to what the Vs Battles Wiki is for, which is powerscaling. You can always ask these people if they dont include it on their profile either, its not something you need to use a verse page for

Being an opponent/supporter of a seriers shouldn't affect the impact of your vote on things at all. What should be counted for is the argument and logic you put, you cant put your name down for free as an opponent just to earn more brownie points and traction. Neutral is the most unclear one on what its meant to be about

Also, what is something that concerns me is a stereotype that people are going to agree with every exaggerated upgrade they see just because they're supporters or agree with every picky downgrade they see just because they're opponents. Or people put themselves as opponents just because they dislike the statistics ratings rather than them disliking the verse for what it is. Supporter IMO just means they enjoy watching the shows/movies, reading the books, and playing the games while opponents means they dislike all those stuff. And neither should have any correlation to their opinions on their statistics ratings, powers, and abilities and/or how much they enjoy debating them within the Vs debating community. Though it is case by case for me, there do exist verses I wrote myself as neutral despite me overall liking it as a franchise more so than one I have listed myself as a supporter. And same with verses I have as neutral despite me overall considering it inferior to a verse I have myself listed as opponent since some verses I give mixed or average ratings I may either add or subtract supporter status due to how great and/or toxic the community is. But I always list myself as supporters for absolute favorite verses and opponents on absolute least favorite verses. There are verses where personally taste in quality wise that is closer to me being a supporter, but toxic community makes me lower it to neutral. And same with neutral quality can be changed to either supporter or opponent based on community. And even verses I consider below average I have listed myself as neutral may be either due to "So bad it's good" status or a surprisingly great community.

Alright but this is the Vs Battles Wiki. It's all about character profiling based on power, and the discussions and main info on actual pages should all be focused on that rather than people using these sections to find friends... Again, this can all be put on a user profile.
And while people arent obviously being those blatant stereotypes (That know the wiki and are aware of it, casual viewers would not know this sentiment), it still provides a negative motive and suspicion for one to believe why they may be against something. Opponents more so, but we've literally amde a 'Knowledgable Members List', thats much less viewed and more annoying to look through than a list people are using to put their personal favourites in.

Basically, the main point of the wiki is powerscaling and profiling based on this. Therefore a section on the verse page should list the people who are most willing and confident to talk about its presence in this regard, not for conversation starters. You can still list your favourites regardless in the section, but theres really no need to put yourself down as 'neutral' or 'opponent'.

However, people can add their name to whatever based what they personally view supporters/opponents/neutral as. Everyone should list their name based on what they see as making them which, but I still personally think they should overall just let their taste in the works of art rather than their taste on the community or VSBW statistics ratings. But of course, no one can force their policy on other people; people shouldn't be going around forcing their name to be changed to opponent just because they have been agreeing with every downgrade they see or disagreeing with every upgrade they see. But all in all, the three things have too much purpose to just get rid of.

So I think we best keep all those sections.

Idk what else to say other than a complete repeat but...
The wiki's main purpose is for powerscaling, Supporters/Neutral/Opponents of this verse, as the section is apparently meant to be people who know the series by its powerscaling. Why are we holding it back from being more efficient, and less biasedly labelled for the sake of trying to find the 'personal favourites' of a user rather than comprehending their stance on how well they know a series clearly. There are many users on Vs Battles Wiki that have made their profile nice and fancy, with all the series they like?
Their purpose in this regard is irrelevant to what the wiki is about, and only causes more confusion on the trustworthiness of a stance on a verse

And heck Knowledgable Members list wouldn't stop that, its just not going to identify to others as 'supporters' (positive), 'opponents' (negative) and Neutral (They...hold no opinion of it? I don't know why you'd need to include this info regardless. If you dont care enough about the verse then you shouldnt really put it there) which can stir a view of someone and their willingness to debate rationally.

 

[Jinx666]

bump

 

[Jinx666]

bump again

 

[Jinx666]

Bump, personally think theres a lot of opinions on this already to move onto a next phase

 

[ImmortalDread]

There are a lot of disagreements here, so I don't think this will be applied.

 

[Jinx666]

There are a lot of disagreements here, so I don't think this will be applied.

Theres are more agreements than disagreements, and the reasonings for keeping it are to do with something the section is not made for.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am counting only staff members, DT and DDM actually disagreed with this idea, so till then, you can't do anything about it.

 

[Propellus]

And also, do keep in mind that the rest of the mods didn't seem to give their own input for something so site-wide. And even then, Ant would probably disagree with this himself

 

[ImmortalDread]

Ya, so not sure if spamming bumps will change their mind. The request is respectfully rejected, there are more admins and DT disagreed with the idea.

 

[Jinx666]

I am counting only staff members, DT and DDM actually disagreed with this idea, so till then, you can't do anything about it.

I have also had staff members agree?

Ya, so not sure if spamming bumps will change their mind. The request is respectfully rejected, there are more admins and DT disagreed with the idea.

Please stop speaking for them. There was actual discussion on how we would go about changing this before you had been derailing the thread. There has been no clear verdict at all

 

[Propellus]

What we're saying is that this isn't good enough votes to be applied to all verse pages

 

[ImmortalDread]

Ya, as @Propellus said

 

[Jinx666]

What we're saying is that this isn't good enough votes to be applied to all verse pages

Theres been no major voting process carried through. When there was a majority agreeing, it was met with derailing

Personally I think another thread that more clearly outlines the changes proposed is in order, as opposed to this thread only merely asking why this section was necessary.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Although you are new here, it is important to recognize that if both DT and a super admin like DDM disagree with an idea, the likelihood of it being implemented is minimal. I advise you to reconsider your approach, as persisting with this attitude will likely result in a futile effort. It is unlikely that DT will support the idea since he has already expressed his disagreement.

A tip from me ^^

 

[Jinx666]

Although you are new here, it is important to recognize that if both DT and a super admin like DDM disagree with an idea, the likelihood of it being implemented is minimal. I advise you to reconsider your approach, as persisting with this attitude will likely result in a futile effort. It is unlikely that DT will support the idea since he has already expressed his disagreement.

A tip from me ^^

I've been here on this wiki since 2016. It says you joined in 2022.

I have admins and other staff members agreeing, more so than against.

The reasonings for not changing it is to 'make friends', which isnt what the wiki is supposed to be providing on their main pages. this is powerscaling.

Im finding this very condescending, and I am not deterred just because you disagree.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I've been here on this wiki since 2016. It says you joined in 2022.

I joined 2018 in forum, but alright, not relevant

I have admins and other staff members agreeing, more so than against.

Only thread moderators and admins agreements actually counts, and there is no admin who support this (except one), and one being neutral. Two other staff members (one super admin and one Bureaucrat who is actually responsible for policy changes disagreed). You can keep arguing, but the chance is minimal.

The reasonings for not changing it is to 'make friends', which isnt what the wiki is supposed to be providing on their main pages. this is powerscaling.

No one cares what you actually think, the disagreement is still valid.

Im finding this very condescending, and I am not deterred just because you disagree.

Sure but this won't be applied sooner or later. I don't know you can spam bumps till next year, none will change their opinion.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Like don't quote me and argue with me, but I am saying that some important people disagreed with this idea, so you can still try, but the chance is minimal.

 

[Jinx666]

Like don't quote me and argue with me, but I am saying that some important people disagreed with this idea, so you can still try, but the chance is minimal.

You're only saying this because you passionately disagree with this yourself, but youre blatantly ignoring the much greater support for this idea. Sadly i don't think being a 'super important person' makes your point or opinion completely overshadow the mass either. Its an outdated feature on the wiki that people are only using to put down useless information the general public doesnt need to know

Right now you're just being insanely rude and i'm not for it. I know what you're saying, and im not taking the condescending advice, so please withhold yourself.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am not ignoring anything, I am just letting you know you are wasting your time in a rejected idea.

Like don't hate me on this, i barely know you, so i have nothing personal against you lol.

 

[Jinx666]

Then please stop calling it a rejected idea when there hasn't at all been an official rejection of it. You're only coming across as bitter since you've spent the whole thread actively trying to go against it.

 

[Jinx666]

Either way im done with this thread at least. Apaprently im not allowed to bump when theres been no actual conclusion to it

 

[LordTracer]

I would think it’s abundantly clear that Jinx is bumping the thread so more people can see it and so there can be more input. I don’t know where this “there’s more disagreements so you shouldn‘t bump the thread” stuff is coming from.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I never said you should not, IDK from where is this coming from either. I suggested her or him from my own experience and he/she took it personally.
like as I said, I have nothing against him/her personally lol.

 

[Propellus]

Then please stop calling it a rejected idea when there hasn't at all been an official rejection of it. You're only coming across as bitter since you've spent the whole thread actively trying to go against it.

And even then, no one even deemed this to be officially accepted either. And like I've said earlier, many mods didn't even give their own opinion regarding this topic which is so site-wide based. There's still a plenty amount of us mods (including me) that are against this as much as those who support this.

 

[Jinx666]

And even then, no one even deemed this to be officially accepted either. And like I've said earlier, many mods didn't even give their own opinion regarding this topic which is so site-wide based.

Okay but im literally not saying that

Ive been bumping the thread because theres been NO conclusion.

 

[ImmortalDread]

And it is rejected from what I see, I mean no conclusion can be interpreted as a rejected idea.
You did not even offer how we will apply it in the whole forum, or you think content moderator will do this for you?

 

[Jinx666]

There has been no offocial agreement on rejection. Please dont tell me im new when you dont know what counts as a rejection.

I did offer on how we would go about fixing this, and it would usually be down to people with more power than me with access to the easier ways of mass changing profiles. I do not mind helping either, ill write a different thread making this the main topic over what my original stance was.

Sorry its a lot of work but if its for the good of the wiki, it shouldnt be dismissed for such.

 

[ImmortalDread]

There has been no offocial agreement on rejection. Please dont tell me im new when you dont know what counts as a rejection.

Jinx, I don't know from where you saw me saying it is official. Like please don't twist my words.

I did offer on how we would go about fixing this, and it would usually be down to people with more power than me with access to the easier ways of mass changing profiles. I do not mind helping either, ill write a different thread making this the main topic over what my original stance was.

And those who has more power than us disagreed with the thread.

Sorry its a lot of work but if its for the good of the wiki, it shouldnt be dismissed for such.

Ya, it is a lot of work and yet not everyone supported it

 

[Jinx666]

Jinx, I don't know from where you saw me saying it is official. Like please don't twist my words.

"and it is rejecxted from what i see". you've literally been squawking at me for bumping it and saying its rejected cause 2 admins disagree, 1 of which the reasoning is its 'a good way to find friends'

And those who has more power than us disagreed with the thread.

As did agreed. And there was more of them. why are you here hounding me for trying to get a conclusion to this? Other than the fact you dont like it

 

[ImmortalDread]

"and it is rejecxted from what i see". you've literally been squawking at me for bumping it and saying its rejected cause 2 admins disagree

Ya, from my perspective, I never claimed it official. And no, I did not squawk you at all, I suggested you and told you its useless. And yes, 2 admins who have the most power in terms of changing policy rejected it, so the chance is minimal. This is what I said.

As did agreed. And there was more of them. why are you here hounding me for trying to get a conclusion to this? Other than the fact you dont like it

The only valid agreements are thread moderators, admins and super admins and Bureaucrats. Like you said yourself, you aint new or? Then you would know that when they disagree, the CRT mostly never goes through.

Jinx (I love this name since this is from League/my main) I have nothing again against you, (being against the argument or OP does not imply I have something against you), but it just for your mental because you keep bumping it.

Meh, I wont argue over, do whatever you want, I was just giving a tip lol

 

[Jinx666]

Please go away i do not want your condescending, harassing tip, all because you don't like this proposed changed.

I am bumping a thread because it has not properly concluded.

 

[ImmortalDread]

“harassing tip”, ya whatever, you have no evidence of all these accusations you dropped.

 

[Jinx666]

I dont appreciate the tone you've been giving me about it and trying to pass it off as if you were being friendly.

If you could be done now that'd be great

 

[ImmortalDread]

Neither the accusations that you just throw on me? Also, my tone is completely normal, and I was the whole time friendly, you just went rude against me.
If you think disagreeing with you is personal, then I can't help.

 

[Jinx666]

whatever

 

[Quantu]

What are the current staff votes?

 

[ImmortalDread]

What are the current staff votes?

DT and DDM and some others disagreed with the idea.