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The Multiversal Undertale CRT

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Is still not related with the topic at hand and is literally derailing.

Stop this, seriously, you're making this longer than it should because of nothing.
Nothing is only your argument and reasonings, there's no way to get an attention to make pages to finally ******* fixed, do you understand?

Of course, when page is contradicts itself is fun, just as every outdated information about that.
 
Whine more, but I don't care. You're literally derailing because we're discussing the characters' ratings, not such trivial details.
You literary can't withstand a message, who's pathetic now? A dude who can withstand a war or a dude who can't withstand just a 1 mouse roiling?

Pathetic weakling I guess.
 
isnt there a MFTL+ calc for asriel eating a universe, could we use that for his speed instead of unknown

actually, i just checked the moment in the fight he uses hyper goner and he says timeline, not just universe, would physically sucking up a timeline count as immeasurable
 
isnt there a MFTL+ calc for asriel eating a universe, could we use that for his speed instead of unknown

actually, i just checked the moment in the fight he uses hyper goner and he says timeline, not just universe, would physically sucking up a timeline count as immeasurable
This ain't the CRT and might do this more controversial than this already is.

Tho I believe myself is a Immeasurable feat.
 
yeah probably, but if that calc i was thinking of is already accepted could we give him that for the time being
 
At this point this thread is just pointing out that people's opinion on something can make them feel like other's are wrong because they want theirs to be subjectly the more accurate one. (Sorry if l offended someone or anyone really)
 
isnt there a MFTL+ calc for asriel eating a universe, could we use that for his speed instead of unknown

actually, i just checked the moment in the fight he uses hyper goner and he says timeline, not just universe, would physically sucking up a timeline count as immeasurable
Btw, now Azzy is capable of destroying timelines, so prob he should be immeasurable I guess.
 
I did read your blog efficiente, if I didn't why would I had made this CRT in the first place? yea, I agreed with some of the points you made in your blog, but not necessarily all of it.

Otherwise, I do think this thread should be closed now, not only because of the currently lopsided votes (13 agreements, 2 of those being staff, and 1 of em being retired staff), but also because it seems eficiente doesn't have the time to argue his point, as he mentioned above himself, but even then the previous point still stands. Although I suppose we will see.
 
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There is a problem here. Eficiente is actually sensical but I've observed that people are misunderstanding his ideas due to them being written in a needlessly complicated manner and like usual people are not taking Eficiente seriously because he expresses his ideas in a haughty manner. Those traits of his are infamous on the VS Battles Wiki but it doesn't change the value in his arguments, so for your reading pleasure, I can disprove the original post in a manner that explains things in a way most people easily understand and in a manner that doesn't make you want to defend your motive behind the revision.
Timelines and RESETs



This is essentially saying that there is a single timeline just being rewritten over and over, which isn’t exactly the case, I believe, and kind of ignores statements throughout the game.

“*Everyone will be ripped from this timeline...
*…and sent back before all of this ever happened.
*Nobody will remember anything.”

This statement does not exactly contradict the existence of multiple timelines at all. It is saying that the current timeline now stops, and that another timeline is starting anew via RESET.
I don't have much to work with for this paragraph since you didn't go into detail about "statements throughout the game". Think of it this way: When observing an Undertale playthrough in its entirety, there were different timelines at some points in existence, but in-continuity there were not multiple timelines in existence at the same time and there ended up being only one existing timeline for reasons that Eficiente's blog post explains well and for reasons I will explain in subsequent paragraphs.
Roachman40 said:
Not exactly important but something worthy to note is that flowey says this timeline, not the timeline, which also kind of implies that there isn't just a singular timeline.
Flowey saying "this timeline" referred to the timeline that existed at the moment when he said that. Since he is aware of the Save and Load functions, he knows that there are other potential timelines that can exist by doing different actions after turning back time, thus meaning he can refer to a single timeline as "this timeline". Those potential timelines didn't exist when he said "this timeline", meaning his statement doesn't contradict the conclusion in Eficiente's blog post.
Roachman40 said:
Sans Statement



Sans said timelines in PLURAL buddy, NOT singular, if it was just one timeline being rewritten over and over I feel sans of all people, who is definitely more knowledgeable than most of the cast, would have specified that. The part of ‘timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting’ also fits perfectly in what I said above in the Timelines and RESETS segment, that an old timeline ends and a new timeline begins.
A "timeline" in this sense is the sequence of events related to a subject that is being observed, with the subject in this case being the world of Undertale. There can be different sequences of events in the game Undertale especially clear depending on what route the player takes, but the actions can be undone without a trace. Sure there are many possible timelines, but some characters can control the existing timeline so that a timeline that could've continued ended up stopping for a different one's start. This means that all the possible alternate timelines don't exist at the same time, and plural grammar can be used by characters when referring to the timeline without contradicting the conclusion in Eficiente's blog post.
Roachman40 said:
Fun Values

Before I actually go into this in more depth, I would like to mention that Fun Values can only be changed if a RESET has been made, things such as SAVing and LOADing will not change the value at all. (Yes, you can go into the games files and change them manually, but I don't think that was really intended)



Alright all of these points are kinda headcanon-y. Goner Kid’s dialogue is about a world where he doesn't exist, which is evidently seen by the fact there are timelines with a different fun value than the one needed to meet him. It's easier and makes much more sense to go with this interpretation than trying to contrive something from this dialogue that doesn't really make much sense otherwise.
It's not wrong that Goner Kid could've been referring to alternate timelines, but it's unwise to treat that interpretation of his words as the one and only canon one, since Goner Kid is a very mysterious character that we know basically no definite information about. That interpretation signifies that fun values are canon despite both Goner Kid and fun values being mysterious, meanwhile there are other interpretations of Goner Kid's words that are simpler and less mysterious, which the VS Battles Wiki is better off using. Eficiente wasn't using headcanon, he was providing interpretations of a mysterious character that people weren't thinking of. The interpretations are all good possibilities.

There isn't evidence suggesting that fun values are meaningful like how you portray them. Fun values seem to be nothing more than non-canon game mechanics that trigger random events within the single existing timeline that the player is currently playing in. They are never referenced during the game at all. Many players likely won't see all the events that trigger by having a fun value that activates them, but that doesn't mean the events make alternate timelines. You can compare this to how few players will receive every enemy's attack in the exact same fashion because many enemies randomly select which attack they will use when it is their turn to attack because of how the game works, and this is an aspect that is beyond the Save and Load functions of the game. That aspect of the game isn't canon, and is just game mechanics. I doubt anyone suspected it to be canon simply because they didn't think of the idea. Some people suspect fun values to be canon because a character possibly implied it to be canon, making people think of the idea, but that isn't concrete evidence.
Roachman40 said:
Alphys Statement


I mean alphys never believed anime was real in the first place, so her believing Mew Mew Kissy Cutie is somehow real out there contradicts that entirely. This also ignores the fact that Alphys is rather knowledgeable and supposedly works faster than even gaster, so her word should definitely be taken into consideration.
This may be a good observation, but in the conversation where Alphys claimed that there exists alternate universes, her saying that was compared to her saying that anime is real. Although Alphys later revealed that she lied about anime being real to impress Undyne, Alphys not believing what she formerly claimed doesn’t change the fact that she has lied a lot, especially since she hasn’t only lied about anime. In fact, during that conversation with Undyne, she said that she has been lying about everything. It wasn't just about anime. This means Alphys probably also lied about there being alternate universes. She was likely referencing a work of fiction that a human wrote that has alternate universes involved.
 
Those justifications have a lot of issues.

A lot of typos, characters' names first letter not in cap, Chara should be capable of destroying the games world regardless of how many resets are performed quite seems misleading towards 2-A too.

Is legit confusing and as I said, a blog should have been made and added before making any change. This CRT feels really rushed.
 
I don't have much to work with for this paragraph since you didn't go into detail about "statements throughout the game". Think of it this way: When observing an Undertale playthrough in its entirety, there were different timelines at some points in existence, but in-continuity there were not multiple timelines in existence at the same time and there ended up being only one existing timeline for reasons that Eficiente's blog post explains well and for reasons I will explain in subsequent paragraphs.

Flowey saying "this timeline" referred to the timeline that existed at the moment when he said that. Since he is aware of the Save and Load functions, he knows that there are other potential timelines that can exist by doing different actions after turning back time, thus meaning he can refer to a single timeline as "this timeline". Those potential timelines didn't exist when he said "this timeline", meaning his statement doesn't contradict the conclusion in Eficiente's blog post.

A "timeline" in this sense is the sequence of events related to a subject that is being observed, with the subject in this case being the world of Undertale. There can be different sequences of events in the game Undertale especially clear depending on what route the player takes, but the actions can be undone without a trace. Sure there are many possible timelines, but some characters can control the existing timeline so that a timeline that could've continued ended up stopping for a different one's start. This means that all the possible alternate timelines don't exist at the same time, and plural grammar can be used by characters when referring to the timeline without contradicting the conclusion in Eficiente's blog post.
I mean I do feel characters saying timelines in plural does matter, no? if other timelines dont exist at the same time I don't think sans would have noticed the other timelines in the first place, they would have to still exist for him to notice them.
It's not wrong that Goner Kid could've been referring to alternate timelines, but it's unwise to treat that interpretation of his words as the one and only canon one, since Goner Kid is a very mysterious character that we know basically no definite information about. That interpretation signifies that fun values are canon despite both Goner Kid and fun values being mysterious, meanwhile there are other interpretations of Goner Kid's words that are simpler and less mysterious, which the VS Battles Wiki is better off using. Eficiente wasn't using headcanon, he was providing interpretations of a mysterious character that people weren't thinking of. The interpretations are all good possibilities.

There isn't evidence suggesting that fun values are meaningful like how you portray them. Fun values seem to be nothing more than non-canon game mechanics that trigger random events within the single existing timeline that the player is currently playing in. They are never referenced during the game at all. Many players likely won't see all the events that trigger by having a fun value that activates them, but that doesn't mean the events make alternate timelines. You can compare this to how few players will receive every enemy's attack in the exact same fashion because many enemies randomly select which attack they will use when it is their turn to attack because of how the game works, and this is an aspect that is beyond the Save and Load functions of the game. That aspect of the game isn't canon, and is just game mechanics. I doubt anyone suspected it to be canon simply because they didn't think of the idea. Some people suspect fun values to be canon because a character possibly implied it to be canon, making people think of the idea, but that isn't concrete evidence.
What goner kid said referring to alternate timelines seems to be the most likely option, at least to me. The points that I saw eficiente bring up are ‘This is just a thought a kid has’, ‘maybe he’s already a ghost’, or ‘He could be referring to what's happening to Gaster’ which, the first two don't have much proof behind them, and the third I don't really agree with at all. he's grey like a gaster follower yea, but that's not really enough to show the connection (Something notable to bring up is when you try to use your phone in goner kids room, it works, but when you try to use your phone in the room with a gaster follower, you can't use it). The final point of ‘He could be referencing how sometimes a player may or may not see him with this much being canon and working like it really does’ is true but I don't really think it disproves my point.
This may be a good observation, but in the conversation where Alphys claimed that there exists alternate universes, her saying that was compared to her saying that anime is real. Although Alphys later revealed that she lied about anime being real to impress Undyne, Alphys not believing what she formerly claimed doesn’t change the fact that she has lied a lot, especially since she hasn’t only lied about anime. In fact, during that conversation with Undyne, she said that she has been lying about everything. It wasn't just about anime. This means Alphys probably also lied about there being alternate universes. She was likely referencing a work of fiction that a human wrote that has alternate universes involved.
When she said everything I took it as her lying about everything she had said to Undyne, or it being a hyperbolic way of saying she has lied about alot, but I do get your point. Even then I do believe it should be taken into consideration, especially considering the fact she thought to bring it up in the first place and said so in front of mettaton, who seems to know of her antics already.
 
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Spoiler tagging this because I don't want to clog my post but regardless, Eficiente, quit your high horse position and saying stuff like "The creator of this thread didn't read it well", "They didn't read it at all", or "So, as said before, you did not understand my blog, and that is a big issue when participating in this thread". Especially with that last quote, you're essentially trying to gatekeep others from participating in the CRT because they "didn't understand your blog". You're acting like your blog is completely and objectively true. It's not. This thread wouldn't have been made in the first place if the OP didn't read it thoroughly or take issues with it at all.

If people disagree with your blog, then they disagree with it. Don't try and make up some dumb excuse like "They didn't read the blog" or "You clearly don't understand what it's saying", because that makes you look like an asshole and desperate.
I disagree immensely and your approach to the situation is toxic. There is no "high horse position" with pointing out in a debate how some participants may not have read or read well something, that is something anyone is free to do should they have reasons to believe that. I gave my reasons damn well yet both too much and too little of that are both seen as wrong, particularly too much as that's what this "high horse position" view really is, emotional instability upon persevering arrogance. That's not gatekeeping, that was a reply to a user who didn't know about one of the very first things my blog covered, it stands to reason that I want them to understand my blog well first given that this CRT has the premise of being a response to it, and then from knowing the information in my blog and arguing it we can have a debate. Those are the intentions anyone would assume from anybody in a position similar to mine saying the same, your assumed intentions I had were atrocious. "Acting like your blog is completely and objectively true" is a straw man, I never said that, and no wonder you make another atrocious interpretation on me with how negative you have me. Concluding based on what people say that they did not read my blog or that there are parts of it that they didn't understand well is clearly not the same as my blog being completely and objectively true, the evident conclusion from my words is that people should either read my blog first or ask for the parts they didn't understand, or anything that may be a reply to blog, I'm evidently not opposing a challenge to my blog because I'm failing to see it properly recognized, if at all (depending on the comment).

Never did you address the logic behind what I said, you can't just jump into saying that what I said is a dumb excuse. There is such a thing as toxic positivity, if saying something as reasonable and possible to be concluded like that makes me look like an asshole and desperate then there we have an issue.

I see this as a big issue we're having here, I request @DarkDragonMedeus @Armorchompy @Moritzva @Saikou_The_Lewd_King @Chariot190 to do talk me about it and please tell me their reaction to that comment I just replied to in private. I accuse of nothing, but suspect some double-standards and negligence somewhere. May they only talk to me if they have the time to do for a back and forth of the situation rather than just leaving something undisputed to say.
 
Okay i am gonna have to agree that you guys should calm down a little on eficiente. Yes some of the stuff he said at the beginning of the thread was condescending and rude, but him saying that you havent read his blog or understood his point properly, whether thats true or not for some isnt really that insulting or demanding you to instantly agree from what im seeing. Lets try stay on topic.
 
I did read your blog efficiente, if I didn't why would I had made this CRT in the first place? yea, I agreed with some of the points you made in your blog, but not necessarily all of it.

Otherwise, I do think this thread should be closed now, not only because of the currently lopsided votes (13 agreements, 2 of those being staff, and 1 of em being retired staff), but also because it seems eficiente doesn't have the time to argue his point, as he mentioned above himself, but even then the previous point still stands. Although I suppose we will see.
This has me saying a few things while at the same time giving insufficient information
  • As a redundant thing for me to say, I do not take the op as a reply to the blog as it doesn't address it, it only talks about the same topics while never putting into question the flaws on the logic of my blog, as a result I never get to know why you disagree, just that you disagree. As I already expressed in my less-than-stellar earlies comments in the thread, I could just reply to things in the op by copying and pasting things from my blog because I never got an answer on what were the issues with them, one example being the part were you say "Sans said timelines in PLURAL buddy, NOT singular" while """"covering""" the part of my blog where I explain how in that same dialogue Sans was talking in plural while there was still only 1 timeline. The approach to my blog was inappropriate and problematic, to be generous.
  • Correct me if I'm wrong but I replied to the op in my easlier comments and you didn't reply back, right? If so, did you agree with what I had to say?
  • I don't remember saying that I didn't have time. At one point it was late in my country to explain to some user the why of what he said being inappropriate, but I touched the idea, and others could take care of it. That's not the same as me not having time to argue the main topic of the thread.
  • So far it seems the logical agreement for the upgrade comes from a comment Charmander did (that I already replied to) derived from/alien to the original proposals of the thread, and then other people agreed too based on their own diverse, unrelated reasons. I think it's more than fair to call this problematic, and don't know what reasons you stand by. Please elaborate them in detail.
 
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I mean I do feel characters saying timelines in plural does matter, no? if other timelines dont exist at the same time I don't think sans would have noticed the other timelines in the first place, they would have to still exist for him to notice them.
There is no logical reason to feel that though, they have to say timelines in plural because there is such thing to talk about as timelines in plural, each of them existed until they didn't. You also don't cover how they stop/everything ends for those timelines. This are things covered in my blog but here is an illustrative drawing of the matter, which should inform nothing new; So again, it makes no sense to point of how they were talked about in plural, to give a silly example if the NASA somehow was super old and had records of many cube-shaped planets across history, and neither of them existed at the same time as they all got destroyed before another one was created, then it would make perfect sense to talk about them in plural in conversation. You have no evidence to say that Sans is referring to timelines as things that exist out there, and in fact this timelines stopping and everything ending for them fits to the idea that they don't keep on existing aside from the main timeline.

Nor do you have developed who even lives in those would-be timelines; Why would they have their own versions of the monsters and humans, Frisk, Chara and the player? Are they wastelands? Something in between? This were all things that I already asked people to elaborate on when touching the matter.
What goner kid said referring to alternate timelines seems to be the most likely option, at least to me. The points that I saw eficiente bring up are ‘This is just a thought a kid has’, ‘maybe he’s already a ghost’, or ‘He could be referring to what's happening to Gaster’ which, the first two don't have much proof behind them, and the third I don't really agree with at all. he's grey like a gaster follower yea, but that's not really enough to show the connection (Something notable to bring up is when you try to use your phone in goner kids room, it works, but when you try to use your phone in the room with a gaster follower, you can't use it). The final point of ‘He could be referencing how sometimes a player may or may not see him with this much being canon and working like it really does’ is true but I don't really think it disproves my point.
I think I already touched this before and I'm being redundant, but repeating to make things clear; you don't have any reasons against the logic in my takes on what Goner Kid said, but took more likely that he was talking about alt. timelines. That's "ok", that can be left as it is, but know that it's a point you make that doesn't have any weight because of it, and even IF that was the correct take it would still not mean that those timelines would be part of "Undertale" and nor that fun values have anything to do with it, it would simply mean that alt. universes exist and that would only be taken in the pretty big what-if that is interpreting that take of his dialogue as the correct one while dismissing the others takes.
 
I mean I do feel characters saying timelines in plural does matter, no? if other timelines dont exist at the same time I don't think sans would have noticed the other timelines in the first place, they would have to still exist for him to notice them.
Sans observed an anomaly that caused timelines to stop and start. The act of timelines stopping and starting must've been visible upon observing the anomaly. Sans likely has technology to make this easy to see, since his genius intelligence makes up for his lack of acausality.
Roachman40 said:
What goner kid said referring to alternate timelines seems to be the most likely option, at least to me. The points that I saw eficiente bring up are ‘This is just a thought a kid has’, ‘maybe he’s already a ghost’, or ‘He could be referring to what's happening to Gaster’ which, the first two don't have much proof behind them, and the third I don't really agree with at all. he's grey like a gaster follower yea, but that's not really enough to show the connection (Something notable to bring up is when you try to use your phone in goner kids room, it works, but when you try to use your phone in the room with a gaster follower, you can't use it). The final point of ‘He could be referencing how sometimes a player may or may not see him with this much being canon and working like it really does’ is true but I don't really think it disproves my point.
To me and many others, Goner Kid could've been referring to your idea or any of Eficiente's ideas because there isn't a good way of definitively proving any of them. I haven't seen Frisk use their phone next to Goner Kid but if the phone works then good point. However, Goner Kid doesn't have to be a Gaster follower for his words to possibly be a reference to Gaster, especially if his words were a coincidence. It's not like Firsk can't use their phone next to other characters who have relevancy to Gaster but aren't Gaster followers. Lastly, the idea "He could be referencing how sometimes a player may or may not see him with this much being canon and working like it really does" in simpler terms meant that Goner Kid is always at his location but sometimes Frisk doesn't find him, and the game usually forces Frisk to not be able to find him because he can only be found if the player has a fun value that allows it. It disproves your point because fun values default to not being canon like I explained. Fun values being canon is just one interpretation out of many.
Roachman40 said:
When she said everything I took it as her lying about everything she had said to Undyne, or it being a hyperbolic way of saying she has lied about alot, but I do get your point. Even then I do believe it should be taken into consideration, especially considering the fact she thought to bring it up in the first place and said so in front of mettaton, who seems to know of her antics already.
If I wasn't clear about this, I did find your point about Alphys the most reliable out of them all, since although Alphys lies a lot, she is still super smart and could've been trying to defend her dignity from Mettaton using true statements all of a sudden. It is possible that Mettaton was trying to make Alphys seem like she has less credentials than she really does for humorous purposes. What I wrote about factors that go against this idea are also good points though, so we can't claim "this is absolutely a clear canonical fact". I'm a fan of embracing "possibly" ranks, so you could try making the top tiers "Universe level+, possibly Low Multiverse level" based on this information if you really want to. Please make sure to write that the Low Multiverse level rank is only possibly the case. It's best that we don't treat this as objective established lore, since there are factors that can contradict the rank.
 
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Even if what Alphys said was true, there is no reason for those universes to be within "Undertale", and in fact Chara & the player moving on from that "pointless" world and moving on to the "next", and the whole deal with Deltarune, both imply that idea to not be correct.
 
Okay so heres my main issues with the blog.

For one. Something that the blog doesnt seem to cover unless im reading wrong is sans bringing up the timelines jumping left and right. Frisk is going backwards in time which would be an immediate jump, but he doesnt travel through time both ways. Jumping left and right doesnt make sense with one timeline, and with multiple you can argue for multiple timelines being messed around with and jumping around as a result in the context sans was using. Unless you outright argue sans just wasnt being literal with that statement.

The goner kid argument in the blog gives alternatives but they are headcannon or even more speculation than the fun value interpretation. Addressing each bullet point under fun values so i dont have to make this too long by quoting.

1. Well okay, the thought does depress him obviously, but this just boils down to "he might be talking about the thought and nothing else". Whether goner kid is actually aware of it or not, it still falls under intent, in that hes a deliberate reference to his non existence in certain resets.
2. Being a ghost doesnt make you non existent in undertale and even potentially a part of the gameplay like with napstablook so, it would be irrelevant to what goner is talking about
3. Goner kid doesnt follow gaster or have any signs of being one. He functions totally different from the others and even so, wouldnt that be out of place for him to be worried about gaster instead of himself having the obviously same issue?
4. Okay admittedly undertale does do this to some degree like with the dirty hacker ending and with hard mode (though ones more of a announcement for something toby never bothered with and another is an actual error message). But what is cannon is the ingame mechanic of goner kid outright not appearing in certain resets, which he refers to as worlds where he doesnt exist. This is predetermined as well the moment you reset. Even if you disregard the chart this is clearly the case as to what is happening and at minimum thered be at least one timeline with and without him. The fun values however give us an actual exact number and the only number wed have to go off of as to what determines his existence as well as the other situations in the game, which is why we go off them to begin with. And its worth mentioning that the developer knows people will search through the files and find these things (shown by things like him adding gasters 66666 stats).
5. Given that his dialogue explicitely references you not existing and things functioning without you, its extremely unlikely hes referencing simply not being found when he would literally still exist if not for the mechanic. Plus a player with no knowledge on fun values could go back on another run and probably not find the kid on the waterfall despite actively looking so thats kinda null.....

The thing with this argument is that youre saying goner kid is a mystery character and its possible to make up other interpretations for him. And yeah while he himself is a mystery, his mechanics and statement is mostly intent and present to us. We know theyre upset about the concept of a world without them existing, and we know ingame he wont appear in that area after certain resets. His name goner kid is a reference to that idea (being gone or unsaveable) meaning hes meant to be talking about himself, and the files prove that each reset dictates his existence based on rng meaning those numbers are worlds where he doesnt exist. Thats at the very least has more evidence for that than anything to do with gaster or most of the speculation. At least i dont see the issue with a possibly 2-C rating from that on its own.
 
For my take on the alphys statement btw. I do believe her statement on timelines is credible and theres not much sign she was just believing it for the sake of wanting it to be true like with anime. But i do agree that it doesnt make those timelines a part of "the game" itself and isnt useful beyond supporting evidence for anything else.
 
For one. Something that the blog doesnt seem to cover unless im reading wrong is sans bringing up the timelines jumping left and right. Frisk is going backwards in time which would be an immediate jump, but he doesnt travel through time both ways. Jumping left and right doesnt make sense with one timeline, and with multiple you can argue for multiple timelines being messed around with and jumping around as a result in the context sans was using. Unless you outright argue sans just wasnt being literal with that statement.
But Frisk doesn't time travel forward in any case, they only Reset the adventure or Load to a previous Save point. Sans was most likely just expressing the statement in a particular way without it having a deeper meaning. What deeper meaning would it have if it does, that's accurate to what we see in Undertale?
RethPo said:
The goner kid argument in the blog gives alternatives but they are headcannon or even more speculation than the fun value interpretation. Addressing each bullet point under fun values so i dont have to make this too long by quoting.

1. Well okay, the thought does depress him obviously, but this just boils down to "he might be talking about the thought and nothing else". Whether goner kid is actually aware of it or not, it still falls under intent, in that hes a deliberate reference to his non existence in certain resets.
2. Being a ghost doesnt make you non existent in undertale and even potentially a part of the gameplay like with napstablook so, it would be irrelevant to what goner is talking about
3. Goner kid doesnt follow gaster or have any signs of being one. He functions totally different from the others and even so, wouldnt that be out of place for him to be worried about gaster instead of himself having the obviously same issue?
4. Okay admittedly undertale does do this to some degree like with the dirty hacker ending and with hard mode (though ones more of a announcement for something toby never bothered with and another is an actual error message). But what is cannon is the ingame mechanic of goner kid outright not appearing in certain resets, which he refers to as worlds where he doesnt exist. This is predetermined as well the moment you reset. Even if you disregard the chart this is clearly the case as to what is happening and at minimum thered be at least one timeline with and without him. The fun values however give us an actual exact number and the only number wed have to go off of as to what determines his existence as well as the other situations in the game, which is why we go off them to begin with. And its worth mentioning that the developer knows people will search through the files and find these things (shown by things like him adding gasters 66666 stats).
5. Given that his dialogue explicitely references you not existing and things functioning without you, its extremely unlikely hes referencing simply not being found when he would literally still exist if not for the mechanic. Plus a player with no knowledge on fun values could go back on another run and probably not find the kid on the waterfall despite actively looking so thats kinda null.....

The thing with this argument is that youre saying goner kid is a mystery character and its possible to make up other interpretations for him. And yeah while he himself is a mystery, his mechanics and statement is mostly intent and present to us. We know theyre upset about the concept of a world without them existing, and we know ingame he wont appear in that area after certain resets. His name goner kid is a reference to that idea (being gone or unsaveable) meaning hes meant to be talking about himself, and the files prove that each reset dictates his existence based on rng meaning those numbers are worlds where he doesnt exist. Thats at the very least has more evidence for that than anything to do with gaster or most of the speculation. At least i dont see the issue with a possibly 2-C rating from that on its own.
The ambiguity is a very important factor of this entire revision, on both sides of any of the arguments. There are no points that anyone is making that have something like it being straight-up said that the world of Undertale is a multiverse or that fun values make it so that alternate universes of different RNG outcomes exist, so any idea that anyone writes can be countered by giving attention to a mere possibility that goes against the idea, since the argument that was being countered in the first place is a mere possibility.
For example, your counter to Goner Kid possibly being a ghost can be countered by the idea that Goner Kid is possibly more shy than Napstablook or possibly values mortality more than Napstablook. The idea of Goner Kid possibly being a ghost was an idea that was created to counter how some people consider his words a reference to alternate timelines, which is possibly the case, but is mistaken for likely being the case. No one truly knows what the case is for sure, since we can't read the mind of Goner Kid to know how he feels in more detail and to know what he meant by asking Frisk to imagine a world where they don't exist but everything functions fine. Fun values could be canon, but fun values could also be an aspect that affects the nature of Frisk doing a Reset, or they could be a non-canon game mechanic with Goner Kid's appearance being nothing but a cool secret that isn't meant to be thought of deeply, especially since Goner Kid literally says to not think about his words after he said them.
Goner Kid is very mysterious, which is a detail that does matter a lot when there is no additional lore to provide a specific context behind his minor appearance, so it is too questionable for the VS Battles Wiki to claim that one interpretation of Goner Kid's words is a clear canonical fact. This is why the most that can be done to make characters have a higher tier than Low 2-C is to make the ranking "possibly" the case. It's only a possibility out of many.
 
Attack Potency: Multiverse level (Destroyed Undertale as a game and its reality and planned to abandon the game to move onto the next game. Only recreated the game after the player gives up their soul. Undertales reality is stated by alphys to have other timelines according to her research, and the games fun values are hinted to be alternate timelines by goner kid, the former mechanic determining whether he appears or not. The act of resetting and reloading causes timelines to jump around and stop and start, having old timelines stop and new ones begin. The sheer number of resets performed by flowey should make the games reality normally this size, who also stated he would reload a million times over Frisk. Chara should be capable of destroying the games world regardless of how many resets are performed)
Not interested in debating here, just going to note on Chara's page it should be fixed from the above to the below due to some pesky grammar errors:

Attack Potency: Multiverse level (Destroyed Undertale as a game and its reality and planned to abandon the game to move onto the next game. Only recreated the game after the player gives up their soul. Undertale's reality is stated by Alphys to have other timelines according to her research, and the game's fun values are hinted to be alternate timelines by Goner Kid, the former mechanic determining whether he appears or not. The act of resetting and reloading causes timelines to jump around and stop and start, having old timelines stop and new ones begin. The sheer number of resets performed by Flowey should make the game's reality normally this size, who also stated he would reload a million times over Frisk. Chara should be capable of destroying the games world regardless of how many resets are performed)

Toodles~
 
For one. Something that the blog doesnt seem to cover unless im reading wrong is sans bringing up the timelines jumping left and right. Frisk is going backwards in time which would be an immediate jump, but he doesnt travel through time both ways. Jumping left and right doesnt make sense with one timeline, and with multiple you can argue for multiple timelines being messed around with and jumping around as a result in the context sans was using. Unless you outright argue sans just wasnt being literal with that statement.
  • Yes, this is covered in one of the first parts of the blog right below the image of Sans talking about this.
  • Your premise is that it's somehow already proven that "jumping left and right" means time travel/moving time backwards and forwards, hence Frisk's actions need to fit within that, but that is not the case as that is made up. We never see "the timeline" from outside of it, or how a reading of a timeline would look like, I can absolutely argue that "left and right" isn't literal because even in your take of it being time travel to the future & past/moving time backwards & forwards "left and right" is still poetic as the whole timeline isn't moving that way but the "last part".
    • If we take a LOAD as a timeline jumping left due to "going to the past" (the timeline going in the same way as that drawing in Back to the Future) then time on its own moving to the present/future can be seen as jumping to the right, thus it makes perfect sense what Sans said.
    • Right after saying that Sans elaborated on the meaning of what he said on how they start and stop. There is no "My take fits the starting and stopping bit but not the jumping left and right bit" situation here, it fits both because both mean the same.
The goner kid argument in the blog gives alternatives but they are headcannon or even more speculation than the fun value interpretation. Addressing each bullet point under fun values so i dont have to make this too long by quoting.

1. Well okay, the thought does depress him obviously, but this just boils down to "he might be talking about the thought and nothing else". Whether goner kid is actually aware of it or not, it still falls under intent, in that hes a deliberate reference to his non existence in certain resets.
Grab in this "intent", decipher what it means with words unsaid and apply it mechanics no one said is the headcanon, it's not a headcanon to say that a sad character saying something sad maybe simply meant to say something sad.
2. Being a ghost doesnt make you non existent in undertale and even potentially a part of the gameplay like with napstablook so, it would be irrelevant to what goner is talking about
He may be a different kind of dead (Based on how he looks) or something else we don't know that simply has the ability to disappear, if that's even canon.
3. Goner kid doesnt follow gaster or have any signs of being one. He functions totally different from the others and even so, wouldnt that be out of place for him to be worried about gaster instead of himself having the obviously same issue?
He has visual similarities with those who do and the player has no way of knowing this, you are the one who said "Whether goner kid is actually aware of it or not, it still falls under intent". We don't know that those who follow Gaster or anyone have the same issue, just that they look weird and have unknown properties to them.
4. Okay admittedly undertale does do this to some degree like with the dirty hacker ending and with hard mode (though ones more of a announcement for something toby never bothered with and another is an actual error message). But what is cannon is the ingame mechanic of goner kid outright not appearing in certain resets, which he refers to as worlds where he doesnt exist. This is predetermined as well the moment you reset. Even if you disregard the chart this is clearly the case as to what is happening and at minimum thered be at least one timeline with and without him. The fun values however give us an actual exact number and the only number wed have to go off of as to what determines his existence as well as the other situations in the game, which is why we go off them to begin with. And its worth mentioning that the developer knows people will search through the files and find these things (shown by things like him adding gasters 66666 stats).
You just said that it was canon arbitrarily with no logic or valid reason behind it, my point still stands after all that.
5. Given that his dialogue explicitely references you not existing and things functioning without you, its extremely unlikely hes referencing simply not being found when he would literally still exist if not for the mechanic. Plus a player with no knowledge on fun values could go back on another run and probably not find the kid on the waterfall despite actively looking so thats kinda null.....
Not that he won't be found, if he doesn't exist and things function without him then it doesn't matter if they found him or not because the point is that whether or not they found him he contributes on nothing it and he makes no difference on anything. This observation around that fact being the thing communicated in this take, and the supposed fact that players will find him not being related to it.
The thing with this argument is that youre saying goner kid is a mystery character and its possible to make up other interpretations for him. And yeah while he himself is a mystery, his mechanics and statement is mostly intent and present to us. We know theyre upset about the concept of a world without them existing, and we know ingame he wont appear in that area after certain resets. His name goner kid is a reference to that idea (being gone or unsaveable) meaning hes meant to be talking about himself, and the files prove that each reset dictates his existence based on rng meaning those numbers are worlds where he doesnt exist. Thats at the very least has more evidence for that than anything to do with gaster or most of the speculation. At least i dont see the issue with a possibly 2-C rating from that on its own.
All of that is clearly a headcanon, you don't know that "his mechanics and statement is mostly intent", you made it up, you don't know that he's "upset about the concept of a world without them existing", you made up that being something that exists out there rather than what it is as a comment and you made up how he's upset about it rather than being the throw away comment it was. You made up the conection between his name and the mechanics of Undertale rather than it simply being how the kid may appear or be gone somewhere in the game and how he looks. You made up that "the files prove that each reset dictates his existence based on rng meaning those numbers are worlds where he doesnt exist" when those can be occasions where Frisk doesn't find him there at that time or he doesn't appear there by himself normally or by the mechanics of whatever being gray and odd grants him.

And you don't answer any of the questions the blog leaves open in that scenario: It makes no sense for there to be more than 1 timeline yet only 1 Frisk as all characters would be pretty much talking to nothing and all of Frisk's actions would be done by nothing as they're not there. If they all have a Frisk then they would all have a player, which they can't given what the player is, which there is only one. How does this fit with timelines stopping/ending? (ie why do we say there are many timelines existing when we're told those don't exist anymore.) Why do Chara and Asriel use "world" in conversations together but then one uses it as in "the timeline" and the other as in "the game", is the game not the multiverse? Since you didn't elaborate that whole part I don't get to know the mechanics you picked up aside from the nobility of claiming there is possibly a multiverse somehow.
 
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Yet another take on "a world where everything is exactly the same except you don't exist" may also be that the world/timeline can be the same except Goner Kid doesn't exist just like it can be the same with him existing, both cases may switch from each other in the same timeline via unknown means (the fun values we don't know about), which still makes what he said make sense. So what he says would refer to something real while there is still 1 timeline. As in, if someone you know talks you hypothetically about a world where they themselves are 5 cms taller then sure, they may be talking about alt. universes, but they may also simply mean this very same universe with that small change implemented.
 
what if suddenly Toby confirm that UT is a multiverse?
 
what if suddenly Toby confirm that UT is a multiverse?
Focusing on unexpected "what if" occurrences that could happen in the future won't get this revision anywhere since we are in the present right now, but if that occurrence were to happen, then it would be good support to Undertale being a multiverse since it would add reliability to Alphys' statement, especially since I don't think Toby Fox would have a reason to be secretive in that case. I guess you could try asking him if you're desperate for this kind of evidence, but make sure to not pester him if he doesn't answer you since it's against the rules and it's impolite in general.
 
Focusing on unexpected "what if" occurrences that could happen in the future won't get this revision anywhere since we are in the present right now, but if that occurrence were to happen, then it would be good support to Undertale being a multiverse since it would add reliability to Alphys' statement, especially since I don't think Toby Fox would have a reason to be secretive in that case. I guess you could try asking him if you're desperate for this kind of evidence, but make sure to not pester him if he doesn't answer you since it's against the rules and it's impolite in general.
Twitter statements are generally unused, but that's derailing.

I'd make the verse still 2-C (100 FUNs) as an absolute minimum based on what Charmander said tho.
 
Twitter statements are generally unused, but that's derailing.
Yes, I know statements like that are of low priority when proving a characters capabilities. (I didn't specifically have Twitter in mind if that matters.)
StrymULTRA said:
I'd make the verse still 2-C (100 FUNs) as an absolute minimum based on what Charmander said tho.
I think something like that could be acceptable, but I'm not changing my mind about it only being a "possibly" rank in addition to the Low 2-C rank that was in place before this revision.
 
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