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The matter with high tier pages here...

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CrossverseCrisis

VS Battles
FC/OC VS Battles
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Okay....this really had to be made about this here on our wikia, sooner or later.

So about a couple months or so back, i had our dear fellow admin and FC/OC member Promestein here help me do a routine check up on the Tier 1's we have on the wikia (something that i've been doing ever since SDZiel1217, a former admin i know that i use to work with here, would have originally done). As she went around and finished her part of the check up, she informed me of how bad in quality our pages are. Such as in terms of reasoning (if there were any) and how bad they are at explaining them and such. There are some other reasons but this is a couple of how bad some of us are in terms of even making the most "basic" Tier 1 or even Tier 0 character.

To be very honest about all of this, i'm very disappointed about some of us here. On how we're unable to do just good enough to make a decent Tier 1 or even, let alone, 0 page. Or to watch out for any that are bad (i know that this site isn't very active in comparison to those like the main Battles wikia as well as it's Joke counterpart of JBW but still...). However, the one that i'm disappointed of the most...is myself. I've been this wiki's bureaucrat since last year in like....November or December ever since after i became an admin on VSBW and seeing that i needed to try to be responsible as well by watching over this wikia. By then, i've gotten down to work on improving everything here when Ziel was starting to be busy himself on his end of life, of which i've gotten to hiring more people to be of staff to help assist me on the wikia here like dear Promestein and LeonRaiden, to recent people like ExoSaiyan and Fllflourine.

Of course even then, all of us including me myself couldn't stop with the amount of bad and full of low quality Tier 1's or 0's or whatever here. In all my experience with this, it normally doesn't end well with the people who make bad high tier characters. Often being that others just make them for the purpose of being overpowered or whatever. It's not bad to make them that powerful. I just don't like the thought of people not understanding how things are really done when making high tier characters like that, ranging from being able to fight or at least seal even other Tier 0 characters to outright defeating or being above them or even just equaling them in power. I HAVE dealt with this in the past, so trust my word on this. Also the thing here about Tier 1's is that if not for me, SDZiel1217 (the guy i mentioned) would have all deleted them and idk what else he would have done afterwards. Though then again, i was pretty chill about this kind of thing at the time until now where i yet saw some other bad high tier pages.

Considering all this and the amount of crap i've put on myself for allowing this to happen despite my role as it's owner, i believe that it's time that we should up our act when it comes to dealing with these pages and, if necessary, deal with any user who makes these kinds of pages but doesn't know even the basics of them. Now for those who have Tier 1 pages here, not all of them are of bad quality from what Prom informed on our last routine. But the rest in general are in some ways. Me and her had to take care of deleting them off our wikia here and have also been planning on making even more rules of the high tier characters of 1 and 0. Now am i saying that we should delete all of the bad ones and keep the good ones here? Not necessarily, no. Though i'm tempted of telling Prom to go and do it honestly, we're not going to do that.....yet. Now here's another thing about them i should really note of this: Pages of any kind here, even the high tier ones, does NOT have to be as good of a quality like that of some like say Promestein or Fllflourine or anything. It just has to be a page that explains clear enough of WHY they are rated as such. I had someone complain to me about how he's not able to make a page as good of a quality like Promestein's a while back. Like i know Promestein is ******* good at making her shit here extremely well. However just because i say they should be of good quality does not mean i'm telling you to go "oh you should make your page as good as hers or anyone here like her", so don't complain about this kind of stuff on how good it should be. At the very least, just know how to explain the characters stats properly.

Now with that out of the way, i made this thread to address this very damn issue that all of us, and especially me the wiki's bureaucrat itself, had let on for too long. Last thing, this kind of manner can affect everyone, including those of staff even. Meaning that those like say Promestein, as good of a character maker as she is, she can be affected by this manner and would most likely delete her own high tier characters if they turn out to be bad.

And with that done....i'd like to hear people's thoughts on this.
 
you don't have to have masterpiece level quality writing to have a good tier 1 profile, just give good justifications and reasoning for why they are at that level (It can be as simple as "Overpowered [Tier 1 Character], who destroyed a 16-Dimensional Structure"), for example "irrelevant" speed can only be used by 1-As and above.
 
The problem with a lot of Tier 1 pages here is that they don't give any valid explanations for the statistics, and are kind of stubs. It's not that difficult to explain the stats, and though it's harder with 1-A, it's still not very hard. There are characters on here who are just... 1-A on here, for the most basic possible reasons, and are obviously just "I want my character to be the strongest" and therefore lack anything really interesting.
 
i think we give the creators a 3-reasons/warning i personally knew a friend who got really mad because his OC (i think the name of his OC is Lyn Kylon,Void god?) got deleted without any warning he said "yes i know many people said it's need more detail and yes i'm creating the full story of it's universe and when i just want to post it to clear the misunderstand the admins (swearing) deleted them" i believe that kind of doings is wrong and well maybe with this people will atleast given reasons/choice about many of his/her character i personally agree to this when i'm just a guest and still not sign up MANY character is broken and that kinds of pisses me off actually so YES i'm agree but i still thinking of giving reasons/warning

Please forgive me if i'm not really polite or my grammar is not first rated english is my third languange
 
@Tirion Highlord: I take it that your friend is that one guy who can seal other Tier 0's, yes? Look the thing is that i've dealt with this case so many times in the past and all of them did not go well. Not only that, one should know what omnipotents should not be sealed and such nor can an omnipotent suppress their power or whatever. Not to mention that there cannot be more than one Tier 0 on any given verse. If anything, Tirion, i don't even know if your friend is able enough to know his mistakes on that and actually learn logically of how character this high are made. Of course, i was extremely harsh on that of him for deleting his OC's and even banning him, that i will admit now and honestly.

Oh and i have done this kind of warnings beforehand too, Highlord. Did not go well on two occasions.

Regardless of the actions i've done here and in the past, i am willing to try things out more of stuff of here and all others. So for now, i'd rather we focus on the now here and not divert to anywhere else. Okay? Again, i will full-on admit to being harsh on my actions when dealing with this kind of stuff (such as your friend). It's just something that doesn't end well even on days where i'm patient with people, Tirion. Not only that, but i don't believe your friend would have learned of something to do wit making these characters so i apologize but i am not gonna risk having to have this guy friend of yours on the wiki. At least for a while, that is. Again very harsh, but i myself is not in the mood to deal with that matter again so please if you may drop that part of the matter off of here.
 
This is a pet peeve of mine and I see it often.

I think this issue is that people focus their "creativity" on how powerful their character is, but don't focus on what makes them a character to begin with or how they got their powers in the first place. A lot of creations have no soul, or real effort and thought put into them, and solely exist for the sake of being able to beat people's characters.

Yes, this wiki is for showcasing people's creativity, but I feel by letting these profiles that lack proper reasoning slide will only lead to a negative impact on the site's future, because new contributors will see these pages and think they are acceptable.

It really shouldn't be difficult to write statistics for any tier, had you put any real thought into your characters or actually read the tiering system, you would understand how to write a character of that tier.

That should not be a hard concept to grasp, for anyone.
 
@Talon, Prom, Flo: Very good points, you three.

Just to show all to everyone that may view this:

On Fllflourine's point, that is exactly that. One does not need to make a master piece page to make a tier 1 or 0. Just as i said above, it could just be a decent page with good justifications and reasoning's put on them for why they are given those stats.

On Promestein's and Talonmask's points, i fully agree on how much of a problem this has been here that wouldn't really be that much of it if not for this. It's not that hard to make any justification for any characters tiers and stats, including that of Tier 1 and 0. However, some of these have been made here very poorly, often due to how people make them either to beat others, be solely powerful, or whatever reason to make up.

  • To further go on from Talon's comment, it is true that this wiki is to showcase all of our creativity of our works of characters and such. However because i let this slide by for way too long and if i continue any further even, it would allow others to think that this would be okay to do not knowing that it's not very creative at all in anyway to do something like this. Even moreso on the fact that those who make high tier characters don't focus anywhere else much on the characters themselves, which makes them very boring to talk about here if ever mentioned at all. And the fact that it's NOT THAT HARD to write them had, as Talonmask putted, anyone here or anyone new were to put more thought into their characters, actually read the Tiering Rules and other such pages beforehand.
Really, does anybody even bother READING the pages of say, the Tiering System page, before even making your first OC or even FC here!?
 
The thing is, tier 1's and especially 0's should be made to tell a story, not to be overtly powerful necessarily. Given their very nature they can't really be used in VS battles (aside from the lower bounds of tier 1.). Too many people make tier 1-A's for the sake of having a powerful character under their belt when that's not really what they should be used for. People really need to stop doing this IMO. It's perfectly fine making one for the sake of trying something new (which is the reason I made King Demious) but at least put some effort into them and try to make them good.

I've already had to talk to someone very recently regarding a badly made tier one and their plenty of others that need the same treatment, sadly. As Cross said, let's all chip in to try and fix them.
 
On ExoSaiyan's comment, this is yet another thing i agree with like the others above from my last comment.

I'm fine with having Tier 1's and even 0's made here. It is part of the many kinds of characters here, of course. However it shouldn't just be made for being OP and broken (as my case of having dealt with a dozen or so pages of that nature). As Exo said, even characters of this level should be made for a story or just being as a character, not just some overpowered being that nobody likes talking about or barely even mention it. And as he said, people here need to stop making them if they can't make even a decent one (refer back to Fllflourine's comment above).
 
If someone is going to make a Tier 1 character they should think about these things.

1) Do I have the necessary reasoning?

2) Are they that strong just to be that strong or is there some reason story wise to be that powerful?

I created an entire blog that explain my series and to why my characters will reach tier 1 status. Mine is for story reasons since the opponents they face are this powerful. Don't create Tier 1's to say "lol my character can solo DB, Saint Seiya and Sailor Moon." Or " my character solos Tenchi Muyo." First of all that's impossible to do since TM has a LEGIT omnipotent, so stop trying. Now I will say that originally I was like that, however after being here for awhile I wanted to make a fun story with OP characters that is JUSTIFIED. I could careless about Zavin vs Elder God Demonbane Nowadays I just make these files to get my story out there, for fun.

As for tier 0 characters....Just stop guys. Making like 50(overexaggeration) omnipotent characters is ridiculous. imo one or two is enough. Those who don't understand the system make Tier 0 characters so that they can say a character once again solos another verse.......Stop this please. It doesn't mean much in the long run tbh. Not that I'm saying making OP characters is wrong( Xros Revolution is full of them.), but if you do so give a good reason that at least follows the tiering system...c'mon guys. My pages may not be perfect, however I try my best to make them accurate to the tier system. If you can't do that, don't make the pages.
 
People should just learn how the system works really...

It's getting annoying, but I don't see how well we can fight this really. We would have to monitors the edits a lot.
 
@Dragon

I completely agree. Although another thing I'd add is "does my page make sense?". In order to achieve the "my character can solo DBZ lulz" people add some really stupid abilities to their page, which really needs to stop as it takes away all meaning from a character of that strength.

Also, "VBeyond Omnipotence" is not allowed on this Wikia, full stop. That's what Joke Battles Wikia is for.
 
What ExoSaiyan said on this.

Also on that last part, what he said is absolutely true. Any mention of being able to fight and overpower Tier 0's themselves is not allowed on this wikia, ever. Much like the main Battles wikia, here we don't allow that and so taht's why Jokes Battles Wikia exists for that.

Also on all of the points that mention of characters losing all meaning of being this strong is pretty much that. Like i said, i don't mind the thoughts and view of having Tier 1's and even 0's here. The thing, however, is that i would appreciate if (partly going by Talonmask's points): people actually read the Tiering System page, standard stats pages (ex. Attack Potency and Speed), Prom's blog of the 3 high tiers (especially on the 1's and 0), put more thought and reasoning onto the characters, and any other reason made for this.

Really if anything, people like Exo, Dragon, and 84 for example at least TRY to make them decent enough. And Dragon's point on the Tier 0's (and i'll add Tier 1's here too) is pretty much just that: If one can't make even a decent page of those high tiers, don't even bother making them of those levels.
 
Ah... well well now this is an interesting development... Right now I'm sure that people finally understand why I placed such a large byte size requirement for tier 1 pages in the beginning...

Most people make tier 1 characters for one two or all of the following reasons...

1) They want their verse to be the strongest...

2) They don't want their verse to be the strongest but they still don't want them to get easily stomped by other verses...

3) They wish to progress their story to higher dimensional levels... Making classic good vs evil scenerios in them in the process...

Reasons 1 and 2 are usually more likely most of the time... Furthermore Tier 1 characters are the hardest to make if ya actually want them to be interesting and not be just a character that exists simply to make sure your verse isn't outclassed in the power department...

Defining their powers, providing a proper reasoning for the tier 1 rating and making it so that they're still interesting is very hard... In terms of feats theirs hardly anything you can add as most tier 1 characters are placed at that rating based on statements and author's word... In terms of their purpose in the story there isn't much you can do that hasn't already been done... Their isn't much that can be done to make them stand out besides making them overpowered... In a way they're like Saitama... They catch your attention in the beginning but after a while they just become boring in physical confrontations at least...

Also it seems as though a lot of people don't seem to fully understand the rating system when it comes to tier 1 ratings...

The best way to solve this would be to...

1) Make heavy restrictions on the creation of Tier 1 pages...

2) Checking all present Tier 1 pages and sorting them into three categories...

  • Category A: The good ones which don't need much work if any to improve them...
  • Category B: The okay ones which still needs some work to be done on them to make them better...
  • Category C: The Black listed ones which should be deleted after a period of time (Say a week or two weeks) has been to the author to possibly fix them...
I've seen that some or all (I haven't properly checked) of the above has been done... And I must say the site's looking pretty lively so nice job on maintaining it Cross...
 
@SDZiel1217: Considering the crap i've had to deal with since you went off for the most part until now, i figured it's best to bring this up now rather than wait on or even never bring this up ever if any. And thanks on the last comment.

As for your points on why people even bother to make them, i find them to be pretty stupid of people who bother to make them in the first place if they can't even understand even the basics (if i can properly say that here, that is) of this issue that in the end in some way couldn't fully prevent or at least marginally prevent it for the most part.

And i have seen cases like this happen here a few or so times on that, yeah. I let that slide at first but after a while of not hearing about them and how stupid they are for being full on broken and OP for likely no reason at all aside from your earlier points about it, i decided to step my foot down on it for once and for all. Saikou is right in that we probably would not be able to fully stop this (likely due to how small we still are in numbers) but that we should really chip in and just watch out for this more often.

Especially for me. I'm tired of constantly having to look out for these goddamn profile being made here only to see how freaking horrible and bad they are.

On the last two things, SDZ, those are something that i have been meaning to work with Prom and i guess the others here on: Making heavy restrictions on Tier 1's and, if i may add, Tier 0 pages, and checking all said present pages of those tiers and sorting them by how "okay" they are.
 
Ho Ho... I see I see...

Well I'll help out a bit since I'm pretty free for a few days...

I'll try to sort out the Tier 1 pages and arrange them into the three categories I mentioned... Will send ya a list in a little bit...

And the reasons for making the Tier 1 pages whether they be stupid or not they are still the main reasons why people make them so I guess we just have to deal with it...
 
Alright. You could also send them to Prom as well as she's helped with this kind of problem some months back and recently a couple months ago as well.

Yeah......still don't like it. -_-
 
Mmhmm. Yeah she knows how to evaluate them better than even me so if you can, you can leave a message on her wall with a list of what you think may be bad and she'll likely take care of the rest from there if you tell her what she can do with them (i presume the ones you have in mind are the bad and "okay but still can be improved" ones, yes?).

Same. This is something that i wish you were around a long while back to take care of alongside me, man.
 
Mostly yes...

Ah... I see well fear not as I am here even if for a little while...

Also I've been meaning to ask this question regarding your opinion on Tier High 1-A... Now I'm of the opinion that Tier 1-A characters have to be equal to one another if they are a part of the same verse... For example Elder God Demonbane and You Sothoth are both Tier High 1-A but neither can destroy one another meaning that they are equal and in case of Mutsuki and Kawahara Sakuya both are Tier High 1-A but neither of them is stronger than the other...

And also if there are multiple High 1-A in a verse with differing power levels then it really doesn't make any sense as High 1-A are supposed to be the strongest in a verse excluding the Tier 0 so if there are multiple characters with High 1-A ratings but with differing power levels then the strongest one/ones should be High 1-A and the rest should just be regular 1-A...

The system on the main site was like this in regards to High 1-A last time I checked... So what your opinion on this is the system here gonna be aimilar to the main site or is it gonna be different...
 
@SDZiel1217: Kind of tired to explain my thought on that, but i'll give it anyways.

As far as i've gotten to this, the way it's done here is that i allowed for people to have even multiple High 1-A's. Though that you mention it.....it seems pretty odd to have one High 1-A be superior to another or a High 1-A be weaker than a stronger one even tho by that point you're pretty much the all powerful person except for either having a weakness or two or a superior being (i.e Tier 0) being present in that verse. I mean thinking this over a bit more, it would make sense for this to happen up to 1-A but once you hi High 1-A, there should either be those that equal to them in power or just have one if the single High 1-A is superior to the others by who knows how much powerful they are to them.

As for the last one, i kind of did try to follow the main system much like the main Battles wikia. But since this thread is related to the matter of Tier 1's (in general, of course. Not solely on the 1-A's. In general) and where i want to hear other peoples thoughts, i would like to hear what people think of your comment of that.

As for me, that's pretty much it.....if i even explain it clear enough, that is.
 
Should a verse really have more than like 2 or 3 High 1-A's at a time? Of course 1-A's have a little more free reign. I feel that as long as a verse has lore that REASONABLY puts characters in tier 1 status the files should be fine. Like I said it has to be reasonable. Like my series Akashi Artifacts and such.
 
@Dragon The thing with High 1-A's is that they basically act as a pseudo-omnipotent. By that I mean they act as a Supreme Being to everyone other than the actual Supreme Being. There really doesn't need to more than one or three at the most IMO.

We might have to have a staff+former staff/admin meeting in order to determine more rules for the Tier 1's.
 
@Dragon: A verse can have as many High 1-A characters so long as they are reasonable... My verse (which I never was able to finish) had around 16 of them...

It's just when a verse has multiple High 1-A characters with differing power levels that it becomes not so okay IMO... Tier High 1-A characters are supposed to to be the strongest characters in a verse excluding the Tier 0... It simply doesn't make sense for there to be two or more Tier High 1-A characters where one of the characters is superior than the others...
 
ExoSaiyan9000 said:
@Dragon
The thing with High 1-A's is that they basically act as s pseudo-omnipotent. By that I mean they act as a Supreme Being to everyone other than the actual Supreme Being. There really doesn't need to more than one or three at the most IMO.

We might have to have a staff+former staff/admin meeting in order to determine more rules for the Tier 1's.
Exactly. Making 4, 5 or 6 High 1-A's is ridiculous IMO unless given a reason that is reasonable and it makes sense. I'd say at most 3 and if only there is a story reason to why. Like for example my verse. There are 3 Akashi Artifacts as explained in my blog. Each can make a person nigh-omnipotent if absorbed. However, 1 of them is its own living being. Making at most 3 High 1-A characters exist in Xros Revolution. Like Ziel said, none should be stronger than the other. only even.
 
@Ziel

That's fine IMO as long as the pages are consistent, make sense and are well put together. I'm more referring to having too many tier 1's for the sake of having them. Though I still think that having 3 should be the limit on most occasions unless the creator can give good reasoning as to why there should be multiple of them. If that is the case then the creator should notify a staff member.
 
I see I see...

As for the limit on making Tier High 1-A while I can agree with it slighty if the creator is good at making Tier High 1-A character or if they don't break any rules(which should most definitely be revised a litte) I don't see any reason to restrict them...

Also in regards to informing a staff member whiles making multiple Tier High 1-A characters for a verse... Can't really agree with this one as well as there shouldn't really be a need as a person who makes more than 5 Tier High 1-A characters better be damn good at making them otherwise he'd already been warned by an admin...
 
Also if you have time right now I would like to hear your suggestions on what should be done to improve the Tier 1 pages and the wika in general... So what are your suggestions on improving the quality of pages and the quality of the wikia...
 
@Ziel

The only things I can think of off the top of my head is for the staff members to communicate more with the other user. I don't really like people making pages for other people (unless if necessary of course) and people perform major changes to a users page without informing them. I personally think that we should communicate with the creators so they don't make the same mistakes again. Also, more threads like this one. Asking the users how we can make the Wiki they use better for them instead of making all of the executive decisions ourselves (though there are some exceptions).

These were quite off hand, I'll admit. If I think of anything else I'll be sure to message you on your wall to try and keep this thread on topic.
 
I see... Alrighty then... I guess we'll have to wait for more input on this... Also since most of the active staff is on this thread I'll categorize and place the list of tier 1 characters here instead...

Also I'll post some of my own suggestions for improvement tomorrow on a new thread...
 
So here's my suggestion. I like the 5,000 byte limit for tier 1 and 0 files, however the creator of theses pages should be warned if the reasoning is horrible, or not sufficient. Also I'd recommend that creators of multiple High 1-A characters give some type of lore to why they exist, so blog, Q&A, or just placed on the verse pages. This lore can also be used for reasoning the character's statistics. Just link the info to the verse page or something.
 
@SDZiel1217: Might deal with that later on or something, idk. Already had to deal with some others that were extremely bad her here and some other issue from yesterday (which i would not rather not discuss here). Anyways aside from that, yes i'd like to hear what you have in mind for this new thread of yours. And yes that too on the rules. Like i said, this is something that Prom and i are trying to think over but since you're here now and all....maybe you and others here can help out more on this with us.

@ExoSaiyan: I actually don't like the thought of communicating more with the creator of the Tier 1's IMHO. I've dealt with this case for like at least 6 times, maybe more, and all of them ended up with the creator not bothering to learn jack about our system. Like even if in my patient and calm days, they clearly do not have any ability to just learn more from problems like this.

However, i would not mind this happening if those like you, Prom, or even anyone who experience with them can take care of this in my place instead. I do feel that this will just end bad and if the person clearly does not show signs of improving, then they should just be told on make anymore of them. And if they continue, just block them off from here. I do however keep the warning part in since....well that's what i have been doing here since last year.

@Dragon: Like with Exo. definitely agree on the warning part. Again, this is something that i've been doing since last year along with Ziel iirc and Prom since early this year along with Exo recently.

Making multiple High 1-A's does seem excessive. I do agree in just having around just 3 at most rather than making like....6-7, maybe even a dozen (of which i've seen here and all but anyways).

Making a lore type on either a blog (such as your own), a Q&A (like mines, Exo's, Prom's, etc.), or just placing it on the verse pages would suffice real well. Even then, the creators would really need to explain real well on those if they want to keep their profiles here.
 
1) Sorry for my late reply, the weather is horrible near me.

2) If you want to see said blog go here *shameless plug* *shameless plug*

3) On the point on the communicating with creators, if they don't listen to reason and don't at least TRY to fix their page then their page should be deleted and they het a warning, it's that simple, to me at least.
 
@Exo: Still...me, Ziel, and Prom have banned some others in the past for not being able to learn from this, dude. Me and Ziel had to deal with some guy last year who wasn't listening to us on how Tier 1's and 0's behaved as well having trolled us and some others on something. Prom ban some other guy due to being rude, disrespectful, having no clear basic general thought of how a Tier 1 is, and just not willing to listen.

If anything, banning them still stays in the end if they don't even learn or listen or if they continue to make them even if we send them a warning to not make anymore/until they learn to make them decent enough.
 
Fair enough.

I guess it ultimately depends on the person in question. As far as I'm concerned, it's always worth trying to be constructive, though that's just me, and if no one else wants to try it then that's fine. All I'm really saying is that I won't hesitate to delete someones page if it's of really bad quality and if the creator refuses to fix it.
 
Again, this is something that i, Ziel, and i think even Prom have been trying to do here for months. Though it's mainly me on this. Like i try to tell the user of something concerning about their OC's of this tier and they just go off and complain to me no matter what explanation i say to them.
 
Yeah, I feel like a warning won't help most new users here unless they are familiar with the main site or are brought here by other members. I've seen what Cross is talking about. He'll just tell them to adjust something simple like a description. term or something and they suddenly get all pissed for simple crap. Even though I don't know what it's like to give others warnings(not a staff member.) I can see how crazy users get over their pages. It is mostly over the fact that they don't care to learn the tiering system.
 
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