The Lich vs Samus

[Theglassman12]

@Nidhog being more powerful isn't what I meant. The fact that the only thing Samus has that can actually help her win in a match like this is useless when lol time rewind negates it, and the only thing she can do is out of character for her to do. It's one sided AF unless she acts completely out of character and tries to torture Lich for fun rather than kill or incapacitate.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

You're going to have to explain to me what's out of character for her to do here, because I'm confused. How is torturing him an option for victory, and how would that be different than incapacitation? More importantly: what would she do that qualifies as torture?

As for being one-sided, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't think a single non-combat ability, technically being used by a third-party entity, is very stomp-ish. Even if it does allow Lich to win, it's going to be after Samus fights him enough times to wear down her stamina and use up her arsenal, and that will take a while.


But, yeah, unfortunately I think that Samus couldn't win this fight unless some creative liberties were taken, like being able to steal and use the Lich's gun and bullet that can kill the past, or if destroying Bullet Hell itself (via Power Bomb or the like) would cause problem for the Lich or Kaliber or their connection.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Nidhogg

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No he uses it to make Lich constantly suffer.

To bypass it, you have to put the Lich in a state that makes it constantly suffer while also in Kaliber's control

For example, Pride absorbing it as a soul makes it in constant anguish, and Kaliber totes about that.

Incapacitation for Samus' case a lot of the times would just make the enemy unable to fight. Which according to Schnee is not what Kaliber wants so it'll just rewind time again. It does make it a stomp cause it renders every single thing Samus can do against him useless when the things she uses to win in character isn't what counts as bypassing the time rewind.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

You still aren't telling me what isn't in character for Samus to do. If you mean torture him as in general, literal torture, I guess you're right. But if causing the Lich constant anguish is enough to bypass Kaliber's time reset, then Samus should win pretty easily with the Darkburst's BFR. It acts like a black hole, yes, but it really opens a dimensional rift that transports things (that don't die outright from the rift's effects on local space-time) to a dimension of darkness like the one where the Ing come from, which -as Metroid Prime 2 clearly shows- damages anything that doesn't natively come from that world to constantly take damage just from being there. Since the Lich wouldn't have the Light-based weapons or energy shields to withstand it, he'd be suffering until he either died or eternally, depending.

Since the Dark Dimension is just a different phase state of the local space-time, again as shown in Metroid Prime 2, the Lich would also technically still be in Bullet Hell, and thus under Kaliber's control. So that would satisfy both of those points and still be in character for Samus. In fact, it would probably be one of the first things Samus tried, because things from the Light dimension (read: basically everything specifically not from a dimension of darkness) are weak(er) to the Dark Beam and it's missile combo. Using a super powerful attack like that in the opening salvo, or at least in the fight at all, is very much something she would do, whether or not she knew about the specifics of the Lich's immortality.

 

[Theglassman12]

Yes, literal torture. Something she's never done to anyone, not even her arch nemesis who killed her parents.

Was there any statements of the Darkburst transporting you to dark aether? Cause I don't recall that being mentioned about the Dark Burst.

 

[Schnee_One]

I never said "Literal torture"

If you were to put him in a state where he's constantly suffering like say, absorbing him into a fountain of souls IE pride, Kaliber is cool with that.

 

[Theglassman12]

What's the difference? That's still the same as torturing him.

 

[Schnee_One]

Torture is actively participating in trying to make someone suffer or make them feel as much pain as possible

Saying "Bye" and having them go somewhere else and said person is constantly suffering there isn't torture, just an after affect.

 

[Theglassman12]

Unless there's any proof that the Darkburst BFR's you to Dark Aether rather than some random pocket dimension, it's not suffering by your own words.

 

[Schnee_One]

That's for you guys to decide

 

[LordNidhoggr]

It does not transport to Dark Aether (I checked, and that is my mistake for thinking it did). It still works even used in Dark Aether. The Dark Beam is specifically made of the energy of Dark Aether only amplified to the point where it can even hurt things native to Dark Aether. The Dark Burst's dimension isn't Dark Aether proper, but a dimension - maybe pocket, maybe not - made up of Dark Aether's energy amplified to a truly insane degree; it's so strong it can utterly disintegrate creatures powered by Dark Aether's energy. In short, it's like a localized Dark Aether that's many times more potent and likely lacks some of Dark Aether's more helpful features, like solid ground.

The Lich would trapped there (as long as it suited Kaliber, anyway), and the location of the rift isn't technically anywhere outside of Bullet Hell - it doesn't fling him across the galaxy or anything. So, I guess it depends wholly on what side Kaliber comes down on: Lich is caught in the Darkburst and is trapped there in eternal pain=good, or being trapped in the Darkburst doesn't meet criteria=rewind time. So, at this point we're debating the theoretical preferences of a third party. To me, that says "inconclusive," but I'll let others with more experience weigh in.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Dark Burst's description says it warps them into Oblivion. Could be interpreted in many ways though.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

The Darkburst's description is:

This potent blast opens a rift to a dark dimension, pulling enemies to oblivion.

Given that the Dark Beam, which powers the Darkburst, is specifically stated to use the same energy that powers/makes up Dark Aether, it's very reasonable to assume that the dark dimension of the Darkburst shares those properties, only much stronger. Since Dark Aether's very atmosphere damages just above everything not adapted to living there, and the Dark Beam is that same energy only potent enough to hurt Dark Aether lifeforms, and that the Darkburst is the strongest version of the Dark Beam realized in its own dimension, the "oblivion" part makes perfect sense. Most things wouldn't survive the initial onslaught of energy; only the very hardy would actually pass through to the dark dimension.

I think it meets the criteria, but I know next to nothing about Gungeon. So someone else will have to comment on that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Some people think it's a black hole that simply erases them from existence, but that wouldn't work on Lich. But if it teleported them to what's basically a deeper, darker version of Hell, then that might work.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I established above why BFR doesn't work

 

[LordNidhoggr]

If his soul can be taken and put into a situation where it's in suffering and Kaliber is OK with that, how is a pocket dimension of pure torment, that's technically just a different dimension of the current area (Bullet Hell), any different? Bullet Hell, from what I have read in the EtG wiki is already a separate dimension from the regular Gungeon, or at least kept apart from it in some way. Kaliber has power over all of it, meaning that dimension-based activity shouldn't be outside of her power. The Lich would still be within her grasp, it's just a matter of whether or not she cared to fish him out of there.

Of course, I would argue that a character who can only fight in one specific place to have access to their greatest hax isn't really deserving of that high of a tier. The Lich anywhere else, in a theoretical match outside the Gungeon and away from Kaliber, is just a strong entity with some decent hax. He's not a universally dangerous/powerful opponent. And the fact that the debate for the Lich isn't about what the Lich can do, but rather what another character does for/to him tells me that Samus deserves to take this fight. It would be like having the Metroid baby come out every time Samus got too damaged; there's precedent for it and it's just as much an "ability" as having a god constantly interfere with you. If Kaliber just flat out gave the Lich permanent time-rewinding abilities or regenerative immortality, that's one thing, because those abilities would then be inherent to the Lich. But she didn't, not conclusively; it's "implied" (and I'm reading from his profile here) that he's dependant on Kaliber for immortality via time hax.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

...no. Because in theory he suffered during the fight with the Gungeoneer, he was pulverized at one point after all. Kaliber demands he suffer but if you read the descriptors on the various items that actually mention Kaliber you'll find the next biggest trait is control.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

...OK? The next biggest trait of whom/what? Kaliber? The Lich? Controlling the Lich? Controlling the Gungeon? Again, you'll have to explain to me why Kaliber would be OK having his soul ripped out and absorbed by Pride and not OK with him being stuck in a pocket dimension where he's being damaged constantly. The soul-rip should be more egregious because it would logically sever the tie between Kaliber and the Lich; his soul is consumed by another entity, she can only act on an empty shell after that. With the Darkburst the Lich is just suffering until Kaliber gets bored and yanks him out (or he dies and she rewinds time), but the BFR would be a win for Samus, IMO.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Kaliber.

I didn't say Kaliber would be okay with that, so I dunno where that came from.

I did say you can't really incap Lich in any way if Kaliber says "timehax" and makes sure he stays in his hell-cell.

So your opinion is great but also like... just flat out wrong and based on my accepting soulhax which I never did?

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Schnee One did, I was going based on that. I may have extropolated a bit far, but there was a basis. Frankly, I thought that it was something from a previous battle, that Pride had been seen as the winner over the Lich with that as the reason; since you didn't directly respond to it, I just didn't think anything of using it for an argument.

So, I read all the descriptions in which Kaliber is mentioned directly over on the Gungeon wiki. I won't assume that all of them that exist in the game are over there, so please fill in the gaps where needed. What I read doesn't really show a being obsessed with control. She very clearly doesn't like to be bested, but you'd have to argue that defeating the Lich and besting her are the same in order to really earn her ire in this battle, imo.

I also learned that The Bullet that can Kill the Past is not required to defeat the Lich. Yes, it's required to perma-kill him, but that's not this wiki's definition of a win. Unless I'm wrong (and I have tried to find specific video or other proof but been unsuccessful), the Lich does not get revived instantly after being defeated. Am I wrong, there? Does the lich get haxed mid-battle if he's incapacitated or beaten?

I still think it's odd at best that this battle is about a third-party's whims and not the two combatants' abilities, but whatever. I guess unless I play through Gungeon myself and see everything I won't know enough to be able to interpret Kaliber's will like someone with that experience.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I've been ignoring this since someone declared it a stomp and there are two staff members capable of closing it.

In response to this... do you know the lore reason for why Lich is actually imprisoned? Story goes that he was once a gunslinger that became the best user of gun magic and alongside the Smith's ancestor created the Gun That Can Kill The Past. This is when Kaliber stepped in, as she was no longer in control of his magic- and then yeeted him into Bullet Hell, unable to escape.

Not quite. The Bullet doesn't permanently kill him regardless since in any situation where you don't shoot him with it, a third party (Kaliber) shoots the gun anyways- a Bullet will always be shot when you defeat the Lich. Much like for the Gungeoneer, whenever he does time just rewind because someone shoots him.

It is odd, but that doesn't actually matter, that is what the Lich is.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Well, I did say up above that it depended on the definition and interpretation of what Kaliber would do and what counted as Bullet Hell, etc. If the decision that the Darkburst's BFR is a no-go with Kaliber, then yeah, I don't really have anything else to argue.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Bullet Hell is a floor of the Gungeon. Outside of Lich's being sealed in the Gungeon, just like everyone else (nobody is capable of leaving), it'd still be outside of Kaliber's established stuff to just let the Lich go.

 

[LordNidhoggr]

Well, I don't want to come across as a nitpicky fanboy or words lawyer any more than I already do, so I guess I'll just bow out as gracefully as I can at this point, hard as that is for me to do.