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The Lich vs Samus
- Thread starter Schnee_One
- Start date
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Samus can't really incap Lich, since her Ice Beam's freeze only lasts a few seconds to my knowledge. And even if she knew about her, Samus isn't touching Kaliber. Since this is only her High 4-C key, Samus dosn't have BFR or Phazon.
Their experience also seems to be in Lich's favor. Lich is almost as old as the Gungeon. While Samus has had more rigurous training in her life, Lich has just much, much more.
Long story short, Lich has Type 4. Lich can kill Samus, but Samus can't kill Lich or ignore the Type 4. My vote goes to Lich. Still can't beleive that the former uncontested strongest High 4-C is being shot to death.
Also thanks to The Heroine, we know that Samus canonically went to the Gungeon and was presumeably killed by something weaker then the Lich
Their experience also seems to be in Lich's favor. Lich is almost as old as the Gungeon. While Samus has had more rigurous training in her life, Lich has just much, much more.
Long story short, Lich has Type 4. Lich can kill Samus, but Samus can't kill Lich or ignore the Type 4. My vote goes to Lich. Still can't beleive that the former uncontested strongest High 4-C is being shot to death.
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- Thread starter
- #4
Bump
GreyFang82
He/Him- 2,769
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Undead Man defeats Space Bounty Hunter FRA
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- #7
Yeah if this ends up being descisive for Lich we know what's next.
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Dark Samus is a textbook example of what the Lich gets defeated by, tho, so Lich won't be standing high and mighty by himself.
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- #9
Huh?
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I mean that the highest Lich is getting in Low 4-C is a tied first if he beats Xue Ying, because Dark Samus is something else entirely.
ABoogieYesSir
They/Them- 6,162
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Lich FRA
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Bump
4 for Lich, 0 for Samus
4 for Lich, 0 for Samus
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- #13
Bump
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Hold up, I need to clarify some details. Low 4-C is Light Suit Samus; actually, that's one of the more stupidly haxed versions. She doesn't use Ice Beam in this key; she has Light Beam, Dark Beam, and Annihilator Beam (Which erases all matter and would require Low-Godly Regenerationn to survive at least). She also could BFR with Dark Burst (Which is basically Black Hole manipulation) and she could spam the inaccurately named Sonic Boom, which is a potent Space-Time Distortion hax that ignores conventional durability.
Also, Lich's calculation appears to be High 5-A as opposed to Low 4-C. So where does his tier come from? Also, not sure how good Lich's Reality warping or Time manipulation is or if he leads with it.
Also, Lich's calculation appears to be High 5-A as opposed to Low 4-C. So where does his tier come from? Also, not sure how good Lich's Reality warping or Time manipulation is or if he leads with it.
Mr. Bambu
Suffer-Not-Injustice Bambu
VS Battles
Joke Battles
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Administrator
Calculation Group
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I mean.
Alright to clear up the AP, read the Blobulord link and go to the thread. TL;DR, Blobulord absorbed stars over an unclear amount of time, hence "At least Low 4-C, likely 4-C", with the High 5-A calc supporting that.
Next thing is that you didn't really read Lich's time manip well? While he can potentially do it, with the Bullet That Can Kill The Past (sends the target back in time to some pivotal moment so they can change the events there), the main schtick is that Lich can't be incapped because Kaliber will directly interfere, it's the main thing that Lich "does". So how haxy Samus is really doesn't actually matter unless she can somehow combat Kaliber whilst the latter is in the heavens.
Means of incap are possible so long as they don't circumvent Kaliber's curse on the Lich (as in, releases him from her control/his prison/etc).
Alright to clear up the AP, read the Blobulord link and go to the thread. TL;DR, Blobulord absorbed stars over an unclear amount of time, hence "At least Low 4-C, likely 4-C", with the High 5-A calc supporting that.
Next thing is that you didn't really read Lich's time manip well? While he can potentially do it, with the Bullet That Can Kill The Past (sends the target back in time to some pivotal moment so they can change the events there), the main schtick is that Lich can't be incapped because Kaliber will directly interfere, it's the main thing that Lich "does". So how haxy Samus is really doesn't actually matter unless she can somehow combat Kaliber whilst the latter is in the heavens.
Means of incap are possible so long as they don't circumvent Kaliber's curse on the Lich (as in, releases him from her control/his prison/etc).
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@Medus
Samus can't perminately kill Lich, Lich can kill Samus. As such, Lich wins. A wall of text means very little to those who don't die when they are killed.
Samus can't perminately kill Lich, Lich can kill Samus. As such, Lich wins. A wall of text means very little to those who don't die when they are killed.
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You guys do know Samus can BFR Lich with the Dark Burst right?
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That's a higher key, I beleive. One of her "Unknown" keys.
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Nope, that's in her Low 4-C key
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I wasn't voting, I was just clarifying a mistake. One of the arguments was, "Her not having BFR, but she does in this key". Also, Time manipulation and Reality Warping weren't elaborately explained on his profile. And Time manipulation has the 'Can possibly" or "Heavily Implies" which sounded vague. And yes, it is her Low 4-C key that can BFR. She doesn't have Phazon yes, but she does have BFR, Space-Time Distortion, and planet wide Mass Energy Conversion. Though, I suppose BFR is the only one that matters too much.
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I see. I guess I didn't read the keys right. How IC is it for Samus to use BFR?
INB4 forcing Lich out of the Gungeon triggers Kaliber's timehax
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She pretty much spams her charged combos against powerful bosses, so it's very in character for her.
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She scans her opponents right away to find out what makes them tick, and will just learn easily that she can't kill him. So she'll just Dark Burst her for incapacitation since that works against the Ing, who can interdimensionally travel.
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Samus would need to scan Kaliber to know about timehax.
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And that's stopping the Dark Burst how?
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Considering she can scan Chozo Ghosts, entities who are literally stated to have ascended outside of time and space, I'm pretty sure she could scan Lich.
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The Ing has interdimensional travel and it works against them.
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- Thread starter
- #29
What does interdimensional travel have to do with time manipulation?
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does he use that for merely having the Lich being thrown somewhere else rather than being defeated?
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<He
No he uses it to make Lich constantly suffer.
To bypass it, you have to put the Lich in a state that makes it constantly suffer while also in Kaliber's control
For example, Pride absorbing it as a soul makes it in constant anguish, and Kaliber totes about that.
No he uses it to make Lich constantly suffer.
To bypass it, you have to put the Lich in a state that makes it constantly suffer while also in Kaliber's control
For example, Pride absorbing it as a soul makes it in constant anguish, and Kaliber totes about that.
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so Kaliber's done it against non lethal incapacitation?
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Yes, he's not suffering if he's sent away and thus can't feel pain.
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Ok then so do you mind telling me what makes this not onesided as hell?
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So again, anyone mind telling me how this isn't one sided?
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So, weird thought process here: since the Lich can't leave Bullet Hell, and the battle can only take place there, Samus would have to reach him. That means she'd have to go through the Gungeon, making the chances of her getting the Bullet that can Kill the Past very high. So she'd win.
(Her cannon being in the Gungeon doesn't mean she died; you know how often she loses her crap. She probably got in a space fender-bender over the Gungeon and it just fell in)
If this is in neutral ground, wouldn't Samus win by default due to Lich's automatic self-removal to the Gungeon?
And yeah, silly stuff
Real talk, not sure Samus can win. Her beam combos, especially the Sonic Boom would prove dangerous, but I'm not sure if they could finish the job. Since the Sonic Boom does create a tear in reality, it might possibly cut off the Lich from Kaliber inside the affected zone, as the rules would be off in that area, but it would still have to one-shot the Lich to work. Unless you go theoretical instead of 100% gameplay and Samus does a Seeker Missile-Sonic Boom combo. That would probably finish the fight, but again, that's only a theoretical combination of powers that the player can't actually use in the game.
Right now, tentatively Lich, but will vote Samus depending on reaction to the above. So...probably Lich.
Edit: I mean Seeker Missiles, not spreader missiles. Which aren't a thing.
If this is in neutral ground, wouldn't Samus win by default due to Lich's automatic self-removal to the Gungeon?
And yeah, silly stuff
Real talk, not sure Samus can win. Her beam combos, especially the Sonic Boom would prove dangerous, but I'm not sure if they could finish the job. Since the Sonic Boom does create a tear in reality, it might possibly cut off the Lich from Kaliber inside the affected zone, as the rules would be off in that area, but it would still have to one-shot the Lich to work. Unless you go theoretical instead of 100% gameplay and Samus does a Seeker Missile-Sonic Boom combo. That would probably finish the fight, but again, that's only a theoretical combination of powers that the player can't actually use in the game.
Right now, tentatively Lich, but will vote Samus depending on reaction to the above. So...probably Lich.
Edit: I mean Seeker Missiles, not spreader missiles. Which aren't a thing.
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Anyone gonna bother answering my question?
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@Bambu Well, I don't want to assume anything, and the OP didn't say where it was. In this case it could potentially change the outcome. But yes, mostly a joke.
That said, a couple small points: Samus is able to freeze stars, and freeze them long enough for them to be mined for resources like planets are. While she doesn't use the Ice Beam in 2, I don't know if it's specifically excluded from this version of her, canonically or in this battle. If it isn't, though, I don't think duration of freeze effect would be a big problem.
Ultimately, to me, I think the battle comes down to this: Samus wins pretty handily if Kaliber doesn't bring the Lich back infinitely, or if her killing the Lich every time he revives ad nauseum counts as a win, something I fully believe she's capable of doing. However, unless the latter "win" condition is accepted, as long as Kaliber brings the Lich back 100% of the time, I'm not sure Samus can put him down for good, save for the Sonic Boom, and that's only a "maybe" depending on the accepted definition of "breaking reality" in its area of effect, and whether it could overcome/bypass this kind of outside interference.
EDIT: @Theglassman12 Isn't this whole discussion supposed to answer the question? I guess if I had to answer, it's not really a "stomp" either way, in the traditional sense, because neither opponent is just outright more powerful than the other. It comes down to hax. The Lich has an outside presence who brings him back pretty much forever unless specific conditions are met or bypassed, while Samus has some interesting BFR/bypass hax that might also work. Right now, it seems like the Lich has the edge. But, at least in my view, one hax that wins via endurance isn't exactly "onesided as hell." Then again, I'm new to debating, so maybe some win conditions are.
That said, a couple small points: Samus is able to freeze stars, and freeze them long enough for them to be mined for resources like planets are. While she doesn't use the Ice Beam in 2, I don't know if it's specifically excluded from this version of her, canonically or in this battle. If it isn't, though, I don't think duration of freeze effect would be a big problem.
Ultimately, to me, I think the battle comes down to this: Samus wins pretty handily if Kaliber doesn't bring the Lich back infinitely, or if her killing the Lich every time he revives ad nauseum counts as a win, something I fully believe she's capable of doing. However, unless the latter "win" condition is accepted, as long as Kaliber brings the Lich back 100% of the time, I'm not sure Samus can put him down for good, save for the Sonic Boom, and that's only a "maybe" depending on the accepted definition of "breaking reality" in its area of effect, and whether it could overcome/bypass this kind of outside interference.
EDIT: @Theglassman12 Isn't this whole discussion supposed to answer the question? I guess if I had to answer, it's not really a "stomp" either way, in the traditional sense, because neither opponent is just outright more powerful than the other. It comes down to hax. The Lich has an outside presence who brings him back pretty much forever unless specific conditions are met or bypassed, while Samus has some interesting BFR/bypass hax that might also work. Right now, it seems like the Lich has the edge. But, at least in my view, one hax that wins via endurance isn't exactly "onesided as hell." Then again, I'm new to debating, so maybe some win conditions are.
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