The issue of Potential Energy

[RatherClueless]

In this thread I’ll tackle some issues with how we use Potential Energy (GPE).
We currently calculate them by simply looking at the Energy an object has before and after a feat within a gravitational field, but quite frankly, that’s a bad way to determine how “good” that feat really is. At least for AP. If such a feat takes an extended amount of time, then that’s a stamina feat. What we are currently doing with Potential Energy is a little like this:

“Car A drives 4 hours down a road at 5Km/h. Car B drives 1 hour down the road at 10Km/h. As both cars needed the same amount of energy, they should be treated as equal in AP.”

Another way to see that two feats aren't equal is by looking at the Kinetic Energy they have. If an object of 1kg is moved up by 1m in 1 second, it'd be 4 times as impressive as doing the same in 2 seconds, even if they end up having the same Potential Energy. This might not sound too bad, but at 10 seconds it's already a difference of 100 times, 3,600 times at 1 minute and an absurd 12,960,000 times at 1 hour, as KE increases by the square and PE doesn't. This allows PE calclulations to vastly exaggerate a feat compared to what it would be using KE.

Now what are my solutions? Well, I was originally thinking of calculating it in a similar fashion as to how horsepower is calculated:

HP = Kgf x m/s

, which would give us a result in Joules per second.

Now at this point one might ask why we wouldn’t just use Kinetic Energy, since we would already assume a time frame anyways. Quite frankly, yes, we might as well. It'd be more consistent with our other calculations too.

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Not a math person but I sorta agree with this. I guess context is important and if you're lifting a truck into the air and then letting it go to drop it on someone the GPE can be used to calc AP.

But again, not a math guy so I'm not sure about the nuances of GPE AP.

 

[DMUA]

Eh, yeah DontTalk's explaination for why slowly lifting something counts for GPE never really made sense to me

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

I also wondered this about KE and PE.

This might not sound too bad, but at 10 seconds it's already a difference of 100 times, 3,600 times at 1 minute and an absurd 12,960,000 times at 1 hour, as KE increases by the square and PE doesn't. This allows PE calclulations to vastly exaggerate a feat compared to what it would be using KE.

And people say PE calcs are safe lowballs. Smh.

Maybe we should look at total mechanical energy(KE+PE) difference between two states for more accurate result??
I dunno, not an expert.

But the power calc method looks good.

Besides that, agree for now.

 

[Planck69]

Makes sense from what I can gather. If nothing else then using K.E. would make more sense. But I'm no expert.

 

[KLOL506]

Makes sense from what I can gather. If nothing else then using K.E. would make more sense. But I'm no expert.

sweats nervously at Naruto having a chance to make a 5-B comeback

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

sweats nervously at Naruto having a chance to make a 5-B comeback

Now that you said that, this thread will undoubtedly be rejected.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Now that you said that, this thread will undoubtedly be rejected.

Lets send Klol to Brazil for jinxing this thread.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I share the Same thoughts as Planck69. The explanation makes sense to me, but I am no expert.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Just let DontTalk speak here then if you guys not the expert

 

[KLOL506]

Just let DontTalk speak here then if you guys not the expert

Already mentioned him and Executor N0 well in advance. Just gotta wait for them now I guess.

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Uh idk if I'm unaware of anything, but I'm pretty sure we decided calculating PE from lifting to apply to AP is bullshit ages ago

 

[KLOL506]

Lets send Klol to Brazil for jinxing this thread.

NO NOT BRAZIL, ANYTHING BUT THAT

 

[KLOL506]

Uh idk if I'm unaware of anything, but I'm pretty sure we decided calculating PE from lifting to apply to AP is bullshit ages ago

Did we now? We do have a bunch of PE calcs for lifting up moons and whatnot so IDK

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

NO NOT BRAZIL, ANYTHING BUT THAT

Australia or Brazil, choose!

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

"However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean-and-jerk, etc.). This is based on the biomechanics behind how human type characters attack. Unlike a punch, a kick, or most other types of attacks, a lift is a slow sustained motion which allows for many more muscles fibers to be recruited into the movement more easily, generating much more energy than a fast movement used in combat. Lifting movements also allow the body's tendons to help out by storing the energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring. If we use real world ratios, when the world's heaviest deadlift is compared to the world's most powerful punch, the deadlift has nearly 5 times more energy, demonstrating the disparity between the two types of movements. Similarly, if telekinesis (or any other ability of a similar nature) is used, the lifting must be performed in a timeframe capable of being used as an attack."

from the Calculations page

unless something was changed that I am unaware of, people simply aren't abiding to current rules or maybe they are outdated calculations, and those calcs should be rejected

 

[KLOL506]

Australia or Brazil, choose!

Come on man, be a little bit more reasonable

 

[KLOL506]

"However, lifting should generally not be used to calculate Attack Potency unless it is a fast, explosive form of lift (for example: snatch, clean-and-jerk, etc.). This is based on the biomechanics behind how human type characters attack. Unlike a punch, a kick, or most other types of attacks, a lift is a slow sustained motion which allows for many more muscles fibers to be recruited into the movement more easily, generating much more energy than a fast movement used in combat. Lifting movements also allow the body's tendons to help out by storing the energy, then releasing it in a sudden burst, acting like a spring. If we use real world ratios, when the world's heaviest deadlift is compared to the world's most powerful punch, the deadlift has nearly 5 times more energy, demonstrating the disparity between the two types of movements. Similarly, if telekinesis (or any other ability of a similar nature) is used, the lifting must be performed in a timeframe capable of being used as an attack."

from the Calculations page

unless something was changed that I am unaware of, people simply aren't abiding to current rules or maybe they are outdated calculations, and those calcs should be rejected

Current NaruSauce moon feat and OPM Psykos feat (Both are GPE): sweats profusely

Then again those were rapid feats but people had issues regarding what timeframe to use so they just went with GPE as a "low-ball"

 

[Damage3245]

Now at this point one might ask why we wouldn’t just use Kinetic Energy, since we would already assume a time frame anyways. Quite frankly, yes, we might as well. It'd be more consistent with our other calculations too.

We don't always need to assume a timeframe, and quite often the less assumptions; the better.

 

[Theendzero13]

For my understanding GPE is mainly used for creation feats, where we cannot assume a timeframe because they did not get moved at all but created instantly out of thin air

 

[Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan]

Creating planets use GBE, not GPE, and even so that's specifically a celestial body thing

 

[Theendzero13]

I was talking about pocket dimensions
Nanatsu and jujutsu kaisen have pocket dimension creation that use GPE

 

[MidnightDawn1]

So if a character falls from a certain height. Does that have to be replaced?

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

So if a character falls from a certain height. Does that have to be replaced?

Not really, afaik.
Since in free fall... PE lost = KE gained.

 

[MidnightDawn1]

Not really, afaik.
Since in free fall... PE lost = KE gained.

K was worried lmao.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

K was worried lmao.

Np

 

[KLOL506]

Creating planets use GBE, not GPE, and even so that's specifically a celestial body thing

I was mostly talking about this and this.

Both feats are rapid enough to qualify for KE, but there were conflicting arguments for what timeframe to use in the first link, so PE was used instead.

 

[Damage3245]

I was mostly talking about this and this.

Both feats are rapid enough to qualify for KE, but there were conflicting arguments for what timeframe to use in the first link, so PE was used instead.

Yeah. Nothing has changed in regards to that as far as I'm aware. PE is still the preferable method to use, for me at least.

 

[Blahblah9755]

Current NaruSauce moon feat and OPM Psykos feat (Both are GPE): sweats profusely

Then again those were rapid feats but people had issues regarding what timeframe to use so they just went with GPE as a "low-ball"

That section is talking about the lifting (ie, the part where you’re applying force to the object) not any continued motion after that lifting ends. Due to conservation of energy, if no force other than gravitational is applied to the object after the point where contact is lost, then its current KE+PE is equivalent to whatever PE it will have when it reaches peak height. So cases like Psykos’ cut where force is only being applied for a short duration would still be fine.

 

[KLOL506]

That section is talking about the lifting (ie, the part where you’re applying force to the object) not any continued motion after that lifting ends. Due to conservation of energy, if no force other than gravitational is applied to the object after the point where contact is lost, then its current KE+PE is equivalent to whatever PE it will have when it reaches peak height. So cases like Psykos’ cut where force is only being applied for a short duration would still be fine.

Oh, okay then.

And what about the Naruto calc?

 

[DontTalkDT]

Eh, yeah DontTalk's explaination for why slowly lifting something counts for GPE never really made sense to me

??? Pretty sure my stance was always that it has to be done in a battle applicable timeframe.

And, mind you, this isn't just a lifting thing. Every energy beam, flame or other non-impact-based attack has the very same restriction regarding timeframe, as they also could all destroy a mountain if you just keep it up for a million years.

It's just that "battle applicable" doesn't mean "let's demand proof of something specific like at most 3.5 seconds". Context wise it's usually clear when something is fast enough that it could be relevant as an attack and not assuming an arbitrary specific timeframe where it isn't necessary is still preferable.

However, I believe it's long-established to use 1 second worth of the total energy if a feat takes extended periods of time to happen.

 

[KLOL506]

??? Pretty sure my stance was always that it has to be done in a battle applicable timeframe.

And, mind you, this isn't just a lifting thing. Every energy beam, flame or other non-impact-based attack has the very same restriction regarding timeframe, as they also could all destroy a mountain if you just keep it up for a million years.

It's just that "battle applicable" doesn't mean "let's demand proof of something specific like at most 3.5 seconds". Context wise it's usually clear when something is fast enough that it could be relevant as an attack and not assuming an arbitrary specific timeframe where it isn't necessary is still preferable.

However, I believe it's long-established to use 1 second worth of the total energy if a feat takes extended periods of time to happen.

So what do we do with the NaruSauce calc?

 

[DontTalkDT]

So what do we do with the NaruSauce calc?

Not the greatest Naruto expert, but IIRC the time for it to rise that far wasn't depicted as very long? And the time over which they supplied energy was probably even shorter.
So it's probably fine? Idk.

 

[KLOL506]

Not the greatest Naruto expert, but IIRC the time for it to rise that far wasn't depicted as very long? And the time over which they supplied energy was probably even shorter.
So it's probably fine? Idk.

Ye, it was fast enough to qualify for KE but for some reason there were conflicts with using timeframes as Damage claimed them to be unreliable, even as all the other Naruto experts disagreed.

Prolly needs a CRT in the future.

 

[BlackeJan]

Not the greatest Naruto expert, but IIRC the time for it to rise that far wasn't depicted as very long? And the time over which they supplied energy was probably even shorter.
So it's probably fine? Idk.

From what it was said “pretty much” from the Naruto members “why would Naruto stare at the Chibaku for more then 5 minutes?”

 

[Damage3245]

From what it was said “pretty much” from the Naruto members “why would Naruto stare at the Chibaku for more then 5 minutes?”

Which I debunked as being a terrible argument in the CRT's we had for it in the past.

Unless new evidence comes up, I don't want to go through a same-old repeat of that CRT.

 

[BlackeJan]

Which I debunked as being a terrible argument in the CRT's we had for it in the past.

If u don’t mind me asking what did u say?

EDIT: also, would using the anime help?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Seems like this is derailing from PE to a Naruto SPCT thread lmao.

 

[Damage3245]

Seems like this is derailing from PE to a Naruto SPCT thread lmao.

Yeah. The original proposal in the OP seems forgotten about.

 

[KLOL506]

Aight then. So what's the consensus on OP?