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The HST Goes to War

Wasn't this another thread?

Anyway Bleach wins via hax with the stern ritter, Toshiro's power negation, Ichibe's ability to rename things, Rukia's Absolute Zero and more

Also @TheFinalOrder didn't Danzo even with Hashirama cells have to wait over a day to use kotoamatsukami again?

And the edotensei's get properly countered with Giselle, Toshiro, Pepe, Barragan, Pernida, Gremmy, and possibly Tsukishima
 
Hst master said:
Also @TheFinalOrder didn't Danzo even with Hashirama cells have to wait over a day to use kotoamatsukami again?

And the edotensei's get properly countered with Giselle, Toshiro, Pepe, Barragan, Pernida, Gremmy, and possibly Tsukishima
Click to expand...
  • Danzo stated it couldn't be used Multiple times in a day with Senju DNA. Obviously adding Kyuubi Chakra and Six Paths Chakra into that would've been a different story.
  • Giselle can't control edo's, You act Toshirou will be able to do whatever unopposed, Pepe isn't really a problem, Barragan can easily be dealt with by people other than edo's, Pernida is gonna defeat an edo? How? What is Gremmy going to do to an edo besides potential BFR? And even then, you act like Gremmy can't be dealt with, and depending on who he its, a problem, "assuming" he can tag without getting bodied.
That aside, Barragan, Pepe, Pernida, Gremmy, Etc, are dead. They can't be used here. And even then, Sasuke can Genjutsu the others.
 
@Final

Your thoughts on Kurama's chakra and Six Path's chakra are pure speculation how do you not know if it will work just the same as Senju?

If it's splattered with her blood unless it's a quincy it's hers And what if she just decides to spray Naruto? Or Sasuke? Or better yet Kabuto and Orochimaru?

It's gonna be hard to deal with Toshiro as long as he's in his adult form thanks to his power negation

Pepe can essentially do the same as Gisselle(Can make the edo tenseis love and fight for him)

Perinda can literally twist anyone who touches his nerves into a pretzel And Gremmy? You already answered your own question BFR or simply imagining them being unable to move

Plus there's Mayuri who can make his own zombies (Except for those who got vaporized and Gremmy who just stopped existing)

And the genjutsu clause has a flaw, it being all it takes to break it is to be stirred up by someone else which wouldn't be effective on Soul Reapers

Furthermore when did Kabuto get Shisui's DNA? And a weakness of the edo tensei is having the soul forcibly removed
 
Ichigo easily lol

Because naruto surviving having the kyubi extracted and becoming Jesus at the same time was totally foreshadowed. Luffy surviving Aokiji's assault was also not due to his plot armor. Dont forget Luffy conveniently developing Haki and preventing Ace from dying prematurely (not by much, tho ovo). Luffy not dying to Croc, like, twice. Luffy hitting Enel. Luffy beating Lucci.

Luffy's plot armor trumps the rest.
 
Hst master said:
@Final

Your thoughts on Kurama's chakra and Six Path's chakra are pure speculation how do you not know if it will work just the same as Senju?

If it's splattered with her blood unless it's a quincy it's hers And what if she just decides to spray Naruto? Or Sasuke? Or better yet Kabuto and Orochimaru?

It's gonna be hard to deal with Toshiro as long as he's in his adult form thanks to his power negation

Pepe can essentially do the same as Gisselle(Can make the edo tenseis love and fight for him)

Perinda can literally twist anyone who touches his nerves into a pretzel And Gremmy? You already answered your own question BFR or simply imagining them being unable to move

Plus there's Mayuri who can make his own zombies (Except for those who got vaporized and Gremmy who just stopped existing)

And the genjutsu clause has a flaw, it being all it takes to break it is to be stirred up by someone else which wouldn't be effective on Soul Reapers

Furthermore when did Kabuto get Shisui's DNA? And a weakness of the edo tensei is having the soul forcibly removed
Click to expand...
  • The reason why Senju DNA works is because Hashirama is a reincarnate of Ashura. Ashura had Six Paths Chakra. Hashirama doesn't have it, but is connected to it by Ashura. The actual chakra would be many more times potent than a simple connection to Ashura. Kyuubi Chakra would increase it's scale/Scope was with Kamui, though it's really not needed as Six Paths Chakra is more than sufficient.
  • Edo's tensei don't have blood, so, just off that it's not going to work. Also, they aren't actual beings like that. They are jutsu. Can Giselle control a Getsuga Tenshou with her blood? That's the logic here. And lets not forget, the stronger the foe, the longer it takes to affect them, so Trying to affect Naruto and Sasuke is a pipe dream and with Orochimaru style regen, Kabuto and Oro can create new fresh bodies before they are affected completely.
  • Toshirou really isn't a problem. The heavy hitters in Round 1 can take him.
  • One at a time, sure, they can still be killed by others. And it'll be a NLF to say The ability can't be resisted by stronger foes. Or, is everyone who challenges them ginna instantly fall under the ability now? Lets be fair and acurate please.
  • So, Pernida is going to defeat an immortal, infinitely regenerating with infinite reserves body, by twisting it into a pretzel? That's like saying Pernida is going to beat Gerard or vice versa. Amateratsu takes care of Pernida, or sealing or Jinton. And Gremmy's reality warping doesn't work like that. Sure, he can try to BFR edo's, but not many at the same time without getting caught of guard by someone. Remember, Gremmy has to "Focus" and he can only create and manipulate his creations, himself or things he is touching. Those are his feats, saying he can do more based on description and definition of Reality Warping is not only faulty under Occams Razor laws as those are again, assuptions, but NLF.
  • Ok? Mayuri cam be dealt with, and Zombies in bleach =/= Edo's.
  • The logic that Genjutsu wouldn't affect a Shinigami is faulty and untrue. They can, and easily. Sure, they may be able to break weaker Genjutsu, but not strong Genjutsu like Tsukiyomi or Rinnegan Genjutsu, even then, Sasuke being the only one with Occular Genjutsu can control Shinigami still despite thas we have precedence on the manga of regular 3 tomoe sharingan being able to control perfect Jinchuriki. And it's possible to genjutsu the Zanpakuto spirit otself, so no, Genjutsu is far from off the table here.
  • Kabuto couldn't get Shisui DNA because Obito wouldn't let him (Smart move). Obito is dead now.
  • Naruto characters have resistance to soul rip, and under verse equalization, Soul Rip would be virtually impossible for the Top Tiers of Both parties in this match.
Feel real bad for OP. Though Big Mom is a problem for the lower tiers of both Naruto and Bleach.
 
@Final

┬À That doesn't explain where you're getting six paths chakra from

┬ÀEven if it doesn't work on Edos it works on Kabuto And you're misinformed on The Z It's not how long it takes, but how much blood for example

Boruto would need a drop Naruto would need to get sprayed Kabuto isn't making a new body fast enough

┬À You say that as if Toshiro isn't a heavy hitter himself

┬ÀAnd where does it say The Love can't work on stronger foes? It's hax It's worked on Senbonzakura who's =< Byakuya

┬À Pernida doesn't have to kill any edos just incapacitate them

┬À Gremmy has reality warped without touching someone before

Code: 
 - Imagined Rose and Kensei were dead - Imagined Yachiru had cookie for bones - Imagined Kenpachi was underwater
┬À Unlike Kabuto, Mayuri's Zombies can't be forcibly stopped by controlling him

┬ÀSimply because it's post war doesn't mean he got his hands on Shisui DNA

┬ÀAnd how would it work on a sword itself? Sasuke uses ocular jutsu which is useless if the opponent has no eyes

┬À I'm not using Soul Rip as a general ability but as a counter to Edo Tensei

And you've still got Tenjiro and his Blood Pond Rukia and Absolute Zero Kyoraku and his Shikai and Bankai Urahara and his Bankai Ichibe and renaming Ishida and Antithesis Yumichika and Rujiro Kujaku Tsukishima and Book of the end And if their bodies still remain Mayuri can make Zombies of......

Jugram Candace Bazz B Lilliotto Pepe Giselle Askin Pernida Quilge Bambietta
 
Then Carl "CJ" Johnson comes with:

- Infinite HP cheat

- Super-Punch cheat

- Weapons Cheat

- Infinite Ammo Cheat

And solos the 3...
 
But now, talking seriously:

Round 1:

- Bleach takes it with a high difficulty. Foes like Whitebeard for example would give hard work via AP, Speed and etc. but Bleach has the edge in hax even the other 2 having a decent amount of hax too.

Round 2:

- Bleach stomps. I mean, we have beings like full power Yhwach, full Power Aizen and full Power Ichigo which combime immense AP, Speed and etc. with I M M E N S E hax. Maybe the strongest foes in Naruto or OP can suvive a good time but almos everyone will be dead in the first seconds and the strongest ones anyways will fall.

Bleach is too overpowered, OMG!
 
@HST Master

  • Six Paths Chakra comes from Naruto and Sasuke
  • The Zombie Ability:
0596-008
So Yes, It would take time. Blood doesn't multiply instantly the amount isn't changing that, sure, it can speed up the process, but Giselle can literally be one shot stepping up to people like Naruto or Sasuke, and I'll concede the Kabuto/Oro stuff, If you can prove they aren't fast enough make a new body as you're making the claim. They can do it nearly istantly.

  • We can discuss Toshirou vs the Other heavy hitters if you like. Gonna be a short battle.
  • Not that the Love will ever tag anyone of note, I take it you're under the impression the ability used by The Glutton can affect even people like say Hashwalth if hit or Ichibei, correct? Because that's the route your argument is heading.
  • Perhaps you're right about Pernida being able to incapacitate some Edo's depending on who they are. They if they are key players, Kabuto and Oro will make sure to prevent that from happening. Pernida's ability would likely be discovered long before though.
  • No Gremmy didn't: Rose and Kensei were off screen "Killed" thus it's an assuption on your part, Yachiru's arm was grabbed prior, Gremmy created a cube of water. Nowhere has he done anything outside of "Creation and Manipulation of himself, his creations or things he's touching or touched". I'll concede if you can provide proof he did that's assuption free and definitive.
  • Depending on the strength of the Edo, neither can they.
  • He doesn't need Shisui's DNA, all he needs is Danzou's, which, coincidentally, contains Shisui DNA.
  • Sharingan allows the user to see and project themselves into another person's inner world. Obito has shown this as well as Sasuke and cas controlled Kyuubi via Genjutsu while in the inner world.
  • Again, Soul Rip is near pointless to bring up as only Hollows can really do it and Naruto characters are again, resistant. Given verse equalization, it would be pointless either way.
  • We can debate about all of these other characters.
 
┬À You say I make assumptions but im seeing a lot myswlf How do you know Naruto and Sasuke can even pass on their six paths chakra?

┬À Regarding Danzo why would Kabuto even be looking for Shisui DNA? ┬À They use body replacement in place of Sub Jutsu why would they sub when its simply blood for all they know?

┬À Gladly considering Bleach has double the 6-Bs unconditional

NATUTO

-Naruto(Base)

-Sasuke(Base)

-Toneri(Base)

BLEACH

-Ichigo(True Shikai)

-Zangetsu

-Toshiro(Adult)

-Kenpachi(Bankai)

-Byakuya

-Ichibe


┬À Even if they figure out what Pernida can do what could they do? They would have to stay off the ground constantly

┬À http://www3.mangaonline.today/bleach/572/12/ Gremmy confirms he kills them

Gremmy later locks Kenpachi in a cube of water without touching him Sends him into the gash in the arena he made without touching him

┬ÀNo it depends on whether they know the release sign or not

┬À Soul Reapers can use Konso on the Edos and Ive looked up the pages and none of them have resistance. If think otherwise you can make a CRT

We've already seen Sharingan genjutsu could be countered just like the normal type, also Sasuke supressed Kurama's chakra and Obito pulled Kurama out of Kushina 1st

┬À Again I'll gladly debate
 
@HST Master

  • SP Chakra is simply a special enhanced Version of Chakra, like God Ki in DBS. Nowhere does it state or imply they can't. Naruto has shown knowledge in handing out people chakra to their specific chakra signature and Sasuke is stated to be equal to Hagoromo in Chakra Control, plus it's implied he gave Obito chakra to get back to the Ice Dimension as he was low.


  • 10 day's of prep, plus in the war arc, Kabuto wanted the DNA to boilster their battle power, so given this is a war setting with 10 days of prep, Kabuto already has precedence for doing so.


  • Naruto alone can be 1-1000, and his clones aren't portrayed weaker than he is. Post war arc, his clones don't vanish after 1 hit either. Not even counting Sasuke's clones, Naruto verse can overwhelm and outnumber the Bleach heavy hitters with clones that can deal the same damage or close to. Not only that, but Sasuke alone could one shot them all with a glance in their direction as he Genjutsu'd the 9 biju in an omni direction while still looking at Naruto.


  • Again....Amaturarsu, Sealing, etc. A generic FRS is likely gonna vaporize Pernida, not that it's necessary.


  • Again, he's only shown "Creation and Manipulation of himself, his creations, things he's touching or has touched" this hasn't changed and you're ignoring Gremmy killed them "off panel".


  • Ref. Sasuke, Oro and Taka summon the past Hokage. Upon Summoning them, after a few exchanges and Hash v Tobi chakra battle, Oro states he wasn't even in control of Hashirama and that he needs to stay on guard. Hashirama even implies this with his statement


  • I don't have to, Oro resisted RDS and Naruto resisted Human Path. These are set in stone and everyone who's read the series knows this. That aside, Konso isn't a viable option as Edo's are not souls. They are reanimated corpses with the soul of the target sealed to the body. Give proof that Konso works through Physical matter and I'll concede.


  • Basic Sharingan Genjutsu, yes. At the same time, we've seen stronger characters control characters that are Perfect Jinchuriki, you know, what you guys primarily base the Zanpakuto/Shinigami relationship off of which I'll address tomorrow as being further faulty when I wake up. And no, I'd implore you to reread the Kushina Flashback. Obito put Kurama under his control before releasing him.


  • We can discuss tomorrow then :)
 
So, here is why Shinigami can't break Genjutsu:

Jiraiya states that inorder to break Genjutsu, you must stop the flow of chakra, then force it to flow again but greater, or something along those lines:

Naruto-5042
People assume that because Zanpakuto have their own spirits, shinigami would be equivalent to Perfect Jinchuriki's, but this is false. A Zanpakuto is an extension of the soul reaper, their spirit energy is the same, the Zanpakuto spirit simply releases more of their own power when going into Shikai/Bankai. It's nothing like Perfect Jinchuriki or somebody else touching them, it's their own power, not another's individual spirit energy. So, you can't even use the 2nd method of breaking genjutsu to say a shinigami can break it because of their Zanpakuto, no. It's their own power, that's like saying Naruto and Kurama have identical chakra because Kurama was created from Naruto's own chakra and they can break Genjutsu because Kurama gave him it's chakra...it's not Kurama's Chakra in this scenario, it's Naruto's! So it would just be Naruto powering up on his lonesome, and this won't work for shinigami because of how Shinigami work.


As long as a Shinigami's Heart beats, they will continue to create Spirit Energy and it will continue to flow out of their body. They can't stop this. In order for them to break Genjutsu used on them, they'd have to stop their reiatsu then power up again, but Shinigami can't stop their reiatsu without stopping their hearts, this has been stated and no feats whatsoever in the verse imply or show that they can. And even if they could, as Itachi has shown, that doesn't mean they can still break the Genjutsu.

The only way for basic genjutsu from the sharingan to be broke is for another individual to push Reiatsu into their body. Zanpakuto don't count as their reiatsu is the Reiatsu of the Shinigami and the only thing they can do is release more of the Shinigami's reiatsu. If I'm wrong, reference me some chapters or post scans and I'll concede.

Though, That's only for Basic Genjutsu. Even perfect Jinchuriki like Naruto knew getting hit witb stuff like Tsukiyomi would be a Zip, and Genjutsu cast from a Rinnegan in stronger as even Sasuke postulates only Another Rinnegan can break genjutsu casted by another rinnegan. Not saying it's true, but it's implied to be much stronger, thus basic methods are less likely to work.


On the off chance I'm wrong, even if they could break genjutsu, it wouldn't happen instantly regardless. 1 second can lead to instant death, and this assumes that the Zanpakuto spirit will even notice the Genjutsu right away, especially subtle ones.
 
WilliamShadow said:
Luffy surviving the poison of that dude from the prison cause of "strong will".
Click to expand...
Wrong, Luffy survived the poison from Magellan due to ivankovs hormone surgery, the strong will is what helped him get through the surgery as it's very painful
 
Ichigo easily lol

Because naruto surviving having the kyubi extracted and becoming Jesus at the same time was totally foreshadowed. Luffy surviving Aokiji's assault was also not due to his plot armor. Dont forget Luffy conveniently developing Haki and preventing Ace from dying prematurely (not by much, tho ovo). Luffy not dying to Croc, like, twice. Luffy hitting Enel. Luffy beating Lucci.

Luffy's plot armor trumps the rest.

Wrong, one piece is a better written series then bleach and Naruto and oda is a far better writer then Kishi/bleach guy thus there's way less plot armour. Luffy survived aokijis assault because aokiji didn't kill him on purpose he only froze him, that was because aokiji owed luffys grandfather a debt. Next one, Luffy developing haki may have been convenient but it was logical and made perfect sense, he's the son of dragon and grandson of garp, he inherited the haki from his father and it was already stated WAY back by Blackbeard that Luffy had haki, so it's not like it came out of nowhere. Next one is actually plot armour. Luffy hit enel because he was rubber and rubber is a counter to electricity, do you even watch the series?? I'll accept Luffy vs lucci being plot armour but it's not much, regardless you only listed 2 legit examples and they don't even compare to Naruto and Ichigo, luffys plot armour is non existent when compared to Naruto/bleach
 
@Nabard Luffy hitting enel at all when Enel posseses haki is PIS.

But whatever, Im not going to argue about PIS and how well or bad written are OP, Bleach and Naruto.
 
Burning Full Fingers said:
It's not going to be added.
It's funny how no one mentioned anyone from One Piece though.
Click to expand...
Well considering nobody has bothered yet to find them a legit MHS+ feat. They get speed blitzed hard...
 
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