The Elder Scrolls

[SITHISIT]

Wondering if a Cleanup on TES profiles would be good as many profiles either have incorrect capitalization, not linked (when there is a link to it), or certain things like immortality are not specified (Immortality usually in TES is always type 1) and anything else that doesnt follow most of our usual standard formats.

If nobody can get around to it I'm fine with doing it myself

 

[Antvasima]

Can you provide a list of profiles that need cleanup, and state what you intend to do? We would also have to be informed about which ones that have to be unlocked.

 

[Mora8]

On the topic of immortality, what level of immortality would this claim from Vivec qualify as?

"It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it."

"It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."

Vivec's claim here is also somewhat proven as he takes you outside of linear time in Morrowind. It could call for a more specific immortality rating to most gods.

 

[SITHISIT]

Can you provide a list of profiles that need cleanup, and state what you intend to do? We would also have to be informed about which ones that have to be unlocked.

Of course. I'll edit them in, let me go see what is out of place.

 

[SITHISIT]

Here's everything, if I put I can do this next to it, I should be able to handle those profiles. Akatosh (mainly capitalization and immortality specify, type 4 likely) I can do this

Talos (capitalization and immortality specify, should be type 4) I can do this

Dovahkiin needs immortality specify, should be type 4

Alduin is having a lot of revisions so if something changes with him I'll just ask that his immortality be edited along with it.

Mannimarco (capitalization and immortality, type 4) I can do this

Vivec (needs to stop being a mary sue

im joking, capitalization and immortality specify, type 4)

Arkay (Capitalization, immortality, and links, type 4) I can do this

Kynareth (Links, Capitalization), I can do this

Thats it for Divines and Dragons and Immortals.

Now for the Daedric Princes

Mehrunes Dago (Immortality is incorrect, should be type 4 as it is a literal deity, which is the requirement for type 4)

All other Daedric princes need immortality change as type 4 covers most of all of that.

All other Daedric Princes except Clavicus Vile, Sheogorath, Peryite, Sanguine, Boethiah, Trinimac/Malacath, Mephala, and Vaermina need capitalization.


Vaermina needs her Control over Dreams and Nightmares as Fear Manipulation (nightmares are apart of it) and Dream Manipulation, I can do this

ok thats it for that, now for the other gods.

Magnus , links and capitalization, incorrect specification on his powers (super strength should be superhuman physical characteristics), I can do this.

Baan Dar (Capitalization, format stuff isnt there)

Yffre (Capitalization, links, song manipulation should likely be sound manipulation)

Lorkha (Immortality Specify, type 4) I can do this

Anui-el in his category is noted as a light user, should I add that in, along with immortality (His mirror Sithis has this as well as predating the existence of Akatosh)?, he should also not have Complex Multiversal range, no idea where that came from.. I can do this


Cosmic Awareness is enhanced senses


That's it for now.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I've noticed them too.

I'll clean them up a bit tomorrow, unless someone else wants to do them.

 

[SITHISIT]

I've put which ones I can handle whichever time.

 

[SITHISIT]

Hold up.

I might be wrong, but do the daedrics need to have type 1, and 3 assigned on with type 4? if so then do that.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Deadric Princes should have type 9 immortality, not type 3/4.

 

[Antvasima]

@Gwynbleiddd Thank you for the help.

 

[SITHISIT]

So Daedric princes should have type 9 immortality, other et'ada should have type 4?

Also, Im ready to edit the ones I've said I'll take care of whenever.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Isn't CHIM where a being breaks free of all the restrictions of the Amaranth and reverts to a state alikened to that of the primordial void before creation. As an Amaranth defines all concepts within it, to transcend those concepts would mean to transcend time and space. Would this not make CHIM users 1-A?

 

[Mora8]

Hat mchant -

Yes, but the canonicity of CHIM is questionable. Many people are... to put it lightly... alergic to MK's works (although admittedly MK's higher metaphysics has been referenced a few times in canon material as of lately). Furthermore it would not enable them the power level of a 1-A because we have no evidence that it actually gives you power over everything. It only allows you to break free of all known laws, not control them.

 

[Hat_mchat]

"CHIM, called the Secret Syllable of Royalty, a state in which one can break free of all known laws and corruptions of Oblivion. It allows for the user to return to a state before the mingling of Anu and Padomay and manipulate the Aurbis how they please." -Elder Scrolls wiki CHIM Notice the manipulate part. By the way the Aurbis is the totality of the amaranth, this includes all binding physical laws, concepts and the multiverse. The "all known laws" thing coupled with manipulation is a high indication to the logical conclusion of superiority over dimensionality along with everything else within an amaranth.

 

[SITHISIT]

Then why is Talos not transcendant to Akatosh the embodiment of the concept of time?

 

[Hat_mchat]

Could you elaborate? Are you implying Akatosh is more powerful than Talos?

 

[SITHISIT]

No. Akatosh can likely contend with Talos for a short time. However still weaker.

and what CHIM does is still questionable and the "manipulate however you please" is likely just propoganda. and Talos using it to destroy Cyrodill's jungle is not really applicable as it was done in an out of game tale by someone who has work considered non-canon by many, and lets be real. Talos is a DIVINE. he could likely erase it anyways. Me and Shazam had decided on that a long time ago.

And the wiki is unreliable

 

[Hat_mchat]

What are your thoughts on the sources at the imperial library regarding CHIM? I know people seem to have a strong aversion to anything Kirkbride especially with the introduction of the concept of c0da and the canonicity of anything, but there is some content on the imperial library which certainly doesn't conflict with in game lore. I must admit the quantifying of the power of CHIM mainly stems from the imperial library, however it would certainly improve the verse a lot if the (and i must say very good) content from the imperial library were considered canon. After all a lot of it ties in with lore in games as ESO has introduced even more links via the character Fa-Nuit-Hen. Also i find it difficult to believe Akatosh could contend with Talos at all given Vivec's demonstration of power at the trial at hogithum hall where vivec effortlessly dispatches Azura. Vivec can be scaled to Talos through CHIM and Azura can be scaled to Akatosh as Daedric princes are comparable to the Aedra as they simply did not take part in creation causing them to lose power.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Also Talos did erase the jungles in game if you read the mysterium xarxes commentaries part 3. Also it is meantioned in the book the many-headed Talos and finally referenced by Heimskr in the events of skyrim. In the commentaries there is a lot of references to CHIM so the erasing of the jungles is likely due to CHIM

 

[SITHISIT]

What are your thoughts on the sources at the imperial library regarding CHIM? I know people seem to have a strong aversion to anything Kirkbride especially with the introduction of the concept of c0da and the canonicity of anything, but there is some content on the imperial library which certainly doesn't conflict with in game lore. I must admit the quantifying of the power of CHIM mainly stems from the imperial library, however it would certainly improve the verse a lot if the (and i must say very good) content from the imperial library were considered canon. After all a lot of it ties in with lore in games as ESO has introduced even more links via the character Fa-Nuit-Hen.
Also i find it difficult to believe Akatosh could contend with Talos at all given Vivec's demonstration of power at the trial at hogithum hall where vivec effortlessly dispatches Azura. Vivec can be scaled to Talos through CHIM and Azura can be scaled to Akatosh as Daedric princes are comparable to the Aedra as they simply did not take part in creation causing them to lose power.

Azura is one of the less prominent daedra, which means she is far weaker than the other prominent daedra. Being a Daedric Prince doesnt mean shit especially when Akatosh is confirmed to be stronger than Dagon who shadows Azura head and shoulder.

1-A Talos makes absolutely no sense, especially when he is literally not mentioned to be at all infinitely above the other Anuic Gods.

CHIM making you free from the Amaranth makes no sense at all. Sithis was created by an Amaranth and he exists on a higher level than Talos and the other et'ada. Besides C0DA has a bad name in the TES community for trying to make vivec another ******* mary sue and trying to make him the main character of TES. And it's questionable if his stuff is canon or not.

Talos is not 1-A. No way. the only thing he would be if we highballed would be high 1-b and thats because the limitless dimensions thing

 

[Mora8]

Hat mchant -

I think we've been given out of game evidence on exactly what CHIM does in the form of Vehk's teachings:

"To transcend mortal boundaries set in place by immortal rulers. At its simplest, the state of chim provides an escape from all known laws of the divine worlds and the corruptions of the black sea of Oblivion. It is a return to the first brush of Anu-Padomay, where stasis and change created possibility. Moreso, it the essence needed to hold that 'dawning' together without disaster. One that knows CHIM observes the Tower without fear. Moreso: he resides within."

Personally I think it's unreasonable when people dismiss this (or most of Michael Kirkbride's stuff, excluding c0da which wasn't even made to be remotely canon) just because it's out of game, especially when the very core mechanics of the Elder Scrolls rely on it.

While Bethesda do tend not to mess with the deeper metaphysics, they have made quite a lot of references to it in certain places (far more references than most people are aware), and they have never showed intention to change it or object to it. In fact, ESO has heavily strengthened the canonicity of deeper metaphysics like Amaranth and such with its recent expansion (refer to the book series, 'The Truth in Sequence' and the new 37th Sermon of Vivec). The Elder Scrolls canon is a very debatable subject, and the lines are blurred.

However I am not certain that CHIM allows one to manipulate Aurbic concepts at will. It just means you're flat out immortal and not bound to any known laws (probably type 10 immortality). Transcendent, yet not all-powerful, or powerful enough to qualify for 1-A.

Similarly, phasing out of a metal box you've been in all your life does not really give you any power over it or its contents. You'll see all kinds of unimaginable things - different colours and so on. That is similar to CHIM. By becoming mortal and achieving CHIM, you detatch yourself from the current laws of the Aurbis dream (stasis, change, time/AKA, existence/Anu, non-existence/Padomay, etc) or more specifically any dream you're in and see a variety of new things, but you can go further to achieve Amaranth and acually create your own dream, becoming that dream.

This was Lorkhan's very goal in creating the Mundus, to turn other gods into a finite mortal state, under which they would then be able to free themselves from the current dream (through CHIM) create a new dream (through Amaranth). But the metaphysics denote that you have to be mortal in order to do so, don't ask why.

So overall my stance on the canonicity and views on CHIM are the following:

- CHIM allows an escape from all known laws, but does not allow you to manipulate them, at least to a significant degree.

- CHIM is vaguely acknowledged by Bethesda.

- Michael Kirkbride's metaphysics of ES are now directly referenced in canon ESO material; it actually requires CHIM to be canon in order to make sense.

- The very core of ES: mortality and its significance, Anu, Padomay, Nir, the Hist and Lorkhan all require the higher metaphysics (including CHIM and Amaranth) to be canon in order to make sense, and all point towards the idea that it is canon.

- Bethesda do not bother with the metaphysics or care because they want to focus specifically on the Aurbis as the setting for the Elder Scrolls series, but do not object or seek to change Michael Kirkbride's metaphysics.

- Overall, the topic of what is canon and what isn't is simply subjective and a very messy topic. But I believe it should be up to the moderators on this wiki to select interpretations which fit their views of what is valid and what is not.

 

[Hat_mchat]

That was quite a reasonable response, thank you i see that CHIM is far too vague to quantify and to allow 1-A classification. This however raises the question to the tier of Anu, Padomay and Satakal. Currently they are unknown, but points raised on the CHIM topic made me think about how powerful the primordial beings are. Anu and Padomay embody the concept of existence and non-existence as i understand and are separate from the et'ada and the concepts they represent as they must've been to be primordial. Di they perhaps deserve a "Possibly" tier?

 

[Antvasima]

As I have stated elsewhere, the problem with our Elder Scrolls profiles is that the only staff member who was knowledgeable enough to properly evaluate the diffuse and complicated information was Sheoth, and he is no longer active in the wiki. As such, the profiles may or may not be misleading, but we cannot condone such massive upgrades without very good unambiguous evidence and staff input.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Ok so i get that there shouldn't be any big upgrades due to uncertainty in what TES texts mean when they are notoriously vague, however as there is now at least some evidence, does this not usually allow for the "Possibly" tier. Sorry if I'm pushing this a bit much.

 

[Antvasima]

If you mean the mention of dimensions, that usually means universes with alien laws of physics in western media, so it seems too uncertain. Sorry.

 

[SITHISIT]

What ant said.

There are really only 5 members in the community who are willing/have the time for/know about most of the TES lore and have good knowledge on it. And most of them aren't even staff. That is me, Shazam, hat, Mora, and Raian as the most knowledgable.

 

[Mora8]

Antvasima -

There is not really a fixed power level in the Elder Scrolls, it is ultimately down to individual opinions on what is valid and what isn't. Each opinion will have a knock-on effect to everything else, and this is a problem when everyone who knows about the Elder Scrolls has different knowledge levels, interpretations and biases.

Because of this I would suggest adding a many interpretation system to the Elder Scrolls profiles, showing all reasonable character possible tiers. We definitely do not have a solid answer concerning the power of the verse.

On a side note, I believe Anu and Padomay should have a possible 1-C rating. We know about the cosmos that:

- Mundus is at least a five dimensional multiverse, containing parallel timelines and adjacent planes like Lyg, possibly six dimensional if you use two pieces of evidence that it has two temporal dimensions. The idea that Mundus is a multiverse is confirmed in the TESO lore summary:

"Unbeknownst to all but a few, Nirn has come unmoored from the fabric of the multiverse, as the mortal realm is drawn ever closer to Coldharbour"

https://www.imperial-library.info/content/introduction-lore-elder-scrolls-online

- Oblivion is a greater infinity 'surrounding' Mundus with an infinite number of planes (this idea that it contains an infinte number of planes is stated several times including by the devs themselves) and embodies 'all possibility':

"Your problem, mortal, is exemplified by your words, 'share a common origin in the planes of Oblivion.' There is nothing 'common' about, between, or across the planes of Oblivion—they are the very definition of change and variation, manifesting all possibilities, and validating all understanding and misunderstanding. You seek similarities where there are only differences, a classification of chaos."

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Lyranth_the_Foolkiller_Answers_Your_Questions

But we can be modest and assume this still only applies with five dimensions for safety.

- Aetherius is a greater infinity surrounding Oblivion.

On the last point about Aetherius, it would logically have to be higher dimensional in order not to be part of the Oblivion, meaning at least 6 dimensional. Anu and Padomay created the Aurbis, including Aetherius, so they should be scaled to at least tier 1-C?

The Elder Scrolls cosmos should range from 6 dimensional on a lower end to 8 dimensional on a higher end.

What do you think? I'm not too awake at the moment so if I have made any mistakes just point them out. But I am pretty sure that Anu and Padomay should be low to mid 1-C.

 

[SITHISIT]

If Mundus was 5-D, which I doubt heavily. Wouldn't the et'ada who exist on a higher level than it be 6D. Then Sithis who exists on a higher level than THEM be 7D?

But 5-D Mundus sounds like a stretch to me. And ESO messes up lore a lot.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I would assume the basis for 5-D mundus is that it contains many infinitely sized 4-D universes, to be separate and distinct while containing the universes, the space between must be 5-D.

 

[Mora8]

Riingo -

As Hat mchant points out, Mundus is five dimensional because it contains parallel four dimensional universes. It is confirmed to have the capacity for parallel timelines from the ending of Daggerfall (look at the topic of dragonbreaks), it contains things known as adjacent planes (such as Lyg), and Kalpas may also be a term for parallel timelines though this is unconfirmed.

Mundus may also contain more than one temporal dimension according to Septimus Signus and Urag gro-Shub, making Mundus six-dimensional, but this is not widely known and unconfirmed.

ESO does not mess up lore signifncantly, this is a widely circlejerked idea taken always way out of proportion based off the fact that they introduced the three factions ordeal, and ESO is canon. A multiverse must be at least five-dimensional, and Mundus is stated to be a multiverse within the introduction.

However Mundus is never stated to be an infinte multiverse, whereas Oblivion is stated to be an infinite one. To play it safe and give it a modest approach, I am assuming that Oblivion and Mundus both make up an infinite five-dimensional or six-dimensional multiverse (probably the latter since it makes much more sense), but we can go with higher ideas if you want.

 

[Hat_mchat]

The realms of the aedra (their bodies) are described as infinite in mass and size.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am uncertain. I will highlight the thread for staff input.

 

[SITHISIT]

There's also something I forgot to add in.

The striking strength for most of these profiles have "Immeasurable" for their places.

This makes no sense and all of them should likely be switched to Multiversal+ as Immeasurable does not follow our striking strength categories.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I've already mentioned this before, but i don't think anyone noticed, in the book 'Liminal bridges' which describes how to get to oblivion, it refers to hyperagonal travel, as in you need to move in another dimension to reach oblivion. You would get a much better understanding if you were to have a read through: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Liminal_Bridges

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

I've cleaned up some profiles.

 

[Antvasima]

@Gwynbleiddd Thank you for the help.

 

[SITHISIT]

I'll deal with the profiles I've said I'll fix in the morning. Right now I'm too tired.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Just a question: shouldn't the daedric princes be downgraded to 2-B. The biggest feat for a prince I've seen is sanguine who controls 100,000 realms. I can't see any evidence of complete power over infinite universes. Also scaling from akatosh doesn't seem right as his power is not present in all of oblivion: "As for time, cause, and consequence, let's just say that the laws of the Dragon God do not apply to Oblivion. Oh, it's useful to adopt the trappings of duration when dealing with mortals, so you'll find Maelstrom quite familiar in that regard. We know how lost you feel away from the hand of Akatosh!". Also just because time is present in some realms doesn't mean akatodh can one shot infinite universes. I think the 2-A rating should be removed for the princes and replaced with 2-B.

 

[Antvasima]

You seem to have a good point about possobly downgrading the Aedra and Daedra to 2-B, although doesn't Mundus have infinite timelines, with Akatosh present in all of them? Or are those different incarnations of Akatosh?