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The Elder Scrolls: Metaphysical Studies and Discussions - Lesson One

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Killing Vivec in-game is super non-canon.

Meanwhile Sotha Sil and Almalexia killed Mehrunes Dagon across all of time and that didn't do crap.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Killing Vivec in-game is super non-canon.

Meanwhile Sotha Sil and Almalexia killed Mehrunes Dagon across all of time and that didn't do crap.
Click to expand...
Ok I was just making sure that he can us it in combat, now that I know it's going to be hard to find him a fair match
 
Ok I found more evidence for Vivec to scale to the Dragonborn you fight Falx in Skyrim; he was one of the three people chosen for Hiricine's Hunt the other two being the Nerevarine and Kargstaag. Both Kargstaag and Falx can fight both the Dragonborn and Nerevarine. Kargstaag also was compared to dragon priest. And the Nerevarine can get dragon bone armor in Morrowind, plus neloth said Miraak would be a great foe. So I think the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn should be comparable to each other.
 
The Dovahkiin is demonstrably stronger than the Nerevarine. The Nerevarine can't wield Keening without that one gauntlet, or he would die. The Dovahkiin can wield it for a long time without it, and that Dwemer enthusiast is just like "omg, you should be dead right now! don't wield the Keening any longer", and you can just continue wielding it. It gives you a debuff, though, so it isn't being wielded effortlessly.
 
I think the dialogue is more canon then the gameplay, so he shouldn't be that much stronger; also the Dragonborn has a dragon soul so that could have something to do with it, but I'll wait to see what Matthew thinks because I haven't read that much of the lore (I been reading more and more recently because it looks cool but only read the entire wolf queen stories and bits and pieces of many others). Also Neloth scoffs at you, kills dragons; plus Cyrus killed a dragon aswell and I believe Vivec fought him so the Nerevarine should still scale to basic dragons
 
TheHadouCyberspaceWitch said:
The Dovahkiin is demonstrably stronger than the Nerevarine. The Nerevarine can't wield Keening without that one gauntlet, or he would die. The Dovahkiin can wield it for a long time without it, and that Dwemer enthusiast is just like "omg, you should be dead right now! don't wield the Keening any longer", and you can just continue wielding it. It gives you a debuff, though, so it isn't being wielded effortlessly.
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It's not just the Dovahkiin. Arniel Gane, and any follower you give Keening to can wield it without consequence. If anything, it's more likely that Keening lost its potency after the events of Morrowind, which would also explain the weaker enchantment and why it took Arniel 3 tries to get his test to work.
 
But I think the Dovahkinn using it for a long time would be gameplay mechanics aswell since someone says your going to die if you don't put it down.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I sincerely doubt that the Dovahkiin > Nerevarine but that's me.
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Would you say there even or is the Nerevarine > Dragonborn

  • edit I just noticed I typed it wrong fixed now
 
I think Nerevarine > Dovahkiin but I'd have to explain in another time. The ludicrous gap between Dagoth Ur and the Full-Power ALMSIVI makes no logical sense.
 
"It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old."

"It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it."

"It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once." — Vivec

This... just sounds awfully lot like our definition of Type 9 Immortality. As in, "resurrecting through a higher self which resides on a higher plane of existence", considering that Vivec is basically saying Gods exist both outside and inside of Time simultaneously, and are capable of resurrecting themselves through their Selves that exist in the Timeless world of the gods

Also fits with the fact that Sotha Sil destroying Mehrunes Dagon throughout all of Time simultaneously didn't do crap to the latter
 
There's also CHIM Vivec piercing Azura through the throat with Muatra causing her to explode, but she surviving that.
 
Azura blew up because Vivec used her Neonymic against her during the Trial, not because of Muatra

Like, the exact same thing happens in Battlespire when you use Mehrunes Dagon's Proto and Neonymics against him: He explodes
 
The Nerevarine is probably the strongest mortal hero if one doesn't count the Champion of Cyrodill becoming Sheogorath. His feats are incredible, but can be difficult to explain without a proper analysis.

Now anyway, the problem I'm having is with what is being planned for the ratings for the prime Tribunal. I generally assumed that when Dagon battled Vivec, and when he battled Almalexia and Sotha Sil during the sacking of Mournhold they were simply battling a powerful avatar of Dagon, not his true form. To have gained power that could rival the true might of a Daedric prince from a portion of Lorkhan's divine spark is very strange to me. Anyway, Dagoth Ur had managed to ambush and defeat the Tribunal back during 2E 882 when they were having one of their annual divine baths. The Tribunal's power during that time couldn't have been that much weaker than their usual peak level. Since then, Dagoth Ur had continued to grow in power until 3E 427. At this point, even an Ash Vampire should be comfortably above the weakened Tribunal of the final years of the 3rd Era.The Nerevarine battling and driving off Dagoth Ur outside the heart chamber is pretty crazy, and he could hold his own against him within the heart chamber, even though he had seemingly become invulnerable due to his ridiculously closer proximity to the heart.

I'm honestly incredibly stumped at this point. I don't know what to say regarding the Nerevarine's tier.
 
I realized I typed my last comment wrong I meant to say Nerevarine > Dragonborn but I said the opposite.
 
"To have gained power that could rival the true might of a Daedric prince from a portion of Lorkhan's divine spark is very strange to me"

Why? Akatosh's Avatar stomped a fully-manifested Mehrunes Dagon and then resealed the boundaries between Mundus and Oblivion which had been destroyed completely. And Lorkhan is just as powerful if not more so.

Nevermind we have Sotha Sil being unambiguously Daedric Prince level if not slightly superior in Online, and Vivec's power being considered great by Clavicus Vile.
 
I don't know, I always assumed that Dagon had yet to fully manifest himself on Mundus during his fight with the Avatar of Akatosh. This might have stemmed from the idea that for me, an Avatar of an Aedra(Even if it was Akatosh) possessing the capacity to take on the full might of a Prince is mind numbing, considering how much power the Aedra had given up during the creation of Nirn. Now I do recall Martin stating how mortal weapons might harm him, but now that he has arrived on Nirn there was nothing they could do, so I'm wrong.

Now, I haven't played ESO for any reasonable amount of time(Which is sad, considering I've played and finished the likes of Dawnstar, Shadowkey and Stormhold) So pardon me for my ignorance regarding that subject.

Oh, I never denied Lorkhan's own power, I'm just baffled by how a minuscule amount of his divine spark could create Daedric level beings. Though, if Lorkhan is the soul of Sithis I suppose I could understand this.

This simply makes me disappointed, considering how I had a particular power scale in mind.
 
Akatosh is time across the entirety of the Aurbis and also a direct manifestation of Anui-El. He can hardly be called a normal Aedra.

ESO has the most in-game feats.

Anyway, I think they make it clear that what you see at the end of the game is literally Mehrunes Dagon:

"Mehrunes Dagon is here! The barriers between Oblivion and Tamriel have been destroyed!" - Journal

Martin Septim: "We're too late... Mehrunes Dagon is here! Lighting the Dragonfires will no longer save us, the barriers that protected us from Oblivion are gone."
 
I never really bothered to analyze the relationship between Auri-El and Akatosh, as I was always more interested in Auri-El being the soul of Anuiel. Though, I'm not sure why I possessed this kind bias as Auri-El is the elven personification of Akatosh.

I don't know, maybe Dagon is simply a loser. He probably has the biggest losing streak out of all the princes. How the other princes aren't laughing at him constantly is beyond me.

Edit: Yeah, I actually did mention Martin having dialogue like that so I stated that I was wrong.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Akatosh is time across the entirety of the Aurbis

Why do you say this?

Anyway, I think they make it clear that what you see at the end of the game is literally Mehrunes Dagon:

"Mehrunes Dagon is here! The barriers between Oblivion and Tamriel have been destroyed!" - Journal

Martin Septim: "We're too late... Mehrunes Dagon is here! Lighting the Dragonfires will no longer save us, the barriers that protected us from Oblivion are gone."

How would these sources even know what is or isn't an avatar (they don't even mention the idea in the story I don't think)? If Princes are their realms then this has to be an avatar.

Afterall the dragonfires are not the only thing protecting Nirn from Oblivion.
Click to expand...
 
"To have gained power that could rival the true might of a Daedric prince from a portion of Lorkhan's divine spark is very strange to me"

Lorkhan's Heart is the majority of his divinity. It's not just a small portion. According to TES Legends, it's literally an infinite source of power.
 
"How would these sources even know what is or isn't an avatar (they don't even mention the idea in the story I don't think)?

Pretty sure a main plot-point was that the barrier that protected Nirn from Oblivion was weakening, until it finally disappeared in the end of the game. I don't exactly see a reason for this to only be an Avatar

"If Princes are their realms then this has to be an avatar."

Their realms are extensions of them, doesn't mean they can't manifest their full selves on Nirn when the very barrier that separates it from their domain is gone. Nevermind that something that was explicitly stated to be Azura's true form could be summoned during the Trial of Vivec.

A shadow leaves Vivec, snapping off him to wrap around the Daedric Prince, cracking the air as it stiffens.
Vivec: "With my Charges I put you down. By this Shadow, I call your neonymic forth, your chosen throne, sundown and sunrise, death and birth of shadow. You are bound to this place."

Azura: "WHAT NO DEVIL PLEASE NO NO NO"

Vivec: "How does it feel, Lord Azura? To so fully manifest here is the Mundus, stripped down only to your name? Perhaps it feels a bit like my sister did, when your machinations split her, name from land, nymic eth maliache velot, thoughtless save for domain. AE ALTADOON DUNMERI for my sister's madness I eat you."
~ The Trial of Vivec​
 
"Pretty sure a main plot-point was that the barriers that protected Nirn from Oblivion was weakening, until it finally disappeared in the end of the game. I don't exactly see a reason for this to only be an Avatar"

I'm not saying it was an avatar. Just that there is doubt as Mundus does seem to have protection beyond the dragonfires and Skyrim is a little vague on the topic too.

"Their realms are extensions of them, doesn't mean they can't manifest their full selves on Nirn when the very barrier that separates it from their domain is gone. Nevermind that something that was explicitly stated to be Azura's true form could be fully summoned during the Trial of Vivec"

That's probably true. Not really interested in the trial so I've only read the summary but I believe Azura's true name was used to behind her to Mundus? So the circumstances are somewhat different.
 
Vivec explicitly stated that Azura had fully manifested in Mundus after using her Neonymic to bind her, and before using her Protonymic proper to banish her from the mortal plane
 
Azura had been summoned before Vivec even used her Neonymic to bind her to Mundus. It is a completely different thing
 
She has been summoned yes, but the exchange you quoted to suggest Azura is there in full only occurs after she has been bound. Something that distresses Azura which is why Vivec mockingly asks her how she feels about it.
 
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