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The Dragonball Matter destruction symposium

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1. Trunks has the Ki power and potency to split atoms apart.

"But he was reduced to atoms by a boy who had come from the future, reaching a miserable end". (Daizenshuu 2, pp.190-193)

A common response to this is that there were bits of freeza left. However, its irrelevant since you don't need to completely destroy them to split their atoms or "reduce" them to atoms. Even with gohan destroying cell, we see bit and peices coming off before getting completely destroyed the longer the blast goes. Not just instantly voiding them.

2. Piccolo from late original Dragonball states he believes he can reduce people to atoms.

3. Buu can regenerate from being turned into vapor, and was later fully destroyed.. which requires manipulating molecules.

4. In Dragonball Super, Goku vs Beerus clash had the power to reduce the universe to nothing. Which means all matter would be destroyed. They made multiple energy blast past that point that would wipe out the universe. Even at the end, goku in base destroyed the strongest energy attack in that fight with just a punch.



In conclusion, Characters beyond Ssj Future Trunks and probaby characters above piccolo from late dragonball should have Matter destruction with the note that its on the level of spliting atoms. While ssg level characters and above in the anime, should get matter destruction to the point of voiding out atoms.

Characters that can tank these attacks should get a resistance to matter destruction as well. Since their ki Potency touches and interacts with the atomic bonds to split them. Therefore, resisting the matter manipulation properties.
 
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@Fluffy

If you're normal human size and tank an attack that could vaporization a human. Then you're durability withstood from the strain of the the blast interacting with the bonds between your molecules. I don't get why you think these attack aren't trying to damage you. Which is the main problem with what you're saying. A certain amount of power has enough control to touch the atomic bonds In dragonball. If it's touching the bonds its affecting and interacting with them. Their ki holds these bonds together, which prevents the attacks from tearing them apart.

"That qualifies as a resistance, it doesn't matter if he did it with ki"

Well the atom destruction tanking would be done with Ki, saying durability vs power is analogous here. They are able to tank these powerful attacks to due to having Ki throughout their body. We still haven't seen someone stronger erases someone stronger than them with hakai, it's all weaker characters. Delinate why the hakai would be in effect. Plus you were saying since you can't tank EE it has to be a resistance (It's fiction) I could apply this to having the Potency to to touch and split atomic bonds, as you can't do that with durability or power normally ethier I believe.
 
Trunks's statement in Daizenshuu is contradicted by what we actually see, it's basically unsupported hype statement.
For SSG, we don't give "Matter Destruction" to characters with the power to destroy the Universe, in this case Low 2-C characters will have to get Spatial Destruction, Matter Destruction, Time Destruction.
 
Trunks' Daizenshuu statement is Hyperbole contradicted by what we actually see. SSJG Goku and Beerus destroying the universe is textbook Attack Potency and not hax.

There’s an argument to be had with destroying Cell and Buu, though.
 
Eh I agree with what you are trying to add, limited matter destruction should be an ability ALL ki users have, ki can destroy majin buu who can regenerate from vaporization which would require destruction of molecules. I disagree with adding a resistance because they don't resist the matter manipulation itself because it's limited and only applies when there is a significant AP advantage. Other than that, I'd be repeating what I sai in the last thread, so I'll just let others express their opinions.
 
1. Trunks has the Ki power and potency to split atoms apart.

"But he was reduced to atoms by a boy who had come from the future, reaching a miserable end". (Daizenshuu 2, pp.190-193)

A common response to this is that there were bits of freeza left. However, its irrelevant since you don't need to completely destroy them to split their atoms or "reduce" them to atoms. Even with gohan destroying cell, we see bit and peices coming off before getting completely destroyed the longer the blast goes. Not just instantly voiding them.

2. In Dragonball Super, Goku vs Beerus clash had the power to reduce the universe to nothing. Which means all matter would be destroyed. They made multiple energy blast past that point that would wipe out the universe. Even at the end, goku in base destroyed the strongest energy attack in that fight with just a punch.



In conclusion, Characters beyond Ssj Future Trunks should have Matter destruction with the note that its on the level of spliting atoms. While ssg level characters and above in the anime, should get matter destruction to the point of voiding out atoms.

Characters that can tank these attacks should get a resistance to matter destruction as well. Since their ki Potency touches and interacts with the atomic bonds to split them. Therefore, resisting the matter manipulation properties.

You should use Buu argument instead of this


Anyways, it would be limited matter destruction, since, it only works if u have big AP advantage.
 
Eh I agree with what you are trying to add, limited matter destruction should be an ability ALL ki users have, ki can destroy majin buu who can regenerate from vaporization which would require destruction of molecules. I disagree with adding a resistance because they don't resist the matter manipulation itself because it's limited and only applies when there is a significant AP advantage. Other than that, I'd be repeating what I sai in the last thread, so I'll just let others express their opinions.
Most abilities in dragon ball only work when one has an AP advantage though. Vegito was able to attack Buu as a candy ball, Vegeta overpowering Toppo's hakai, even resisting mind manip in dragon ball might be from an AP advantage (Vegeta went Super Saiyan to resist Babidi and I think one component of how strong someone's ki is correlates with how strong their mind is.) My point is that we give resistances to these even though they are from an AP advantage, so why wouldn't it apply for this?
 
Most abilities in dragon ball only work when one has an AP advantage though. Vegito was able to attack Buu as a candy ball, Vegeta overpowering Toppo's hakai, even resisting mind manip in dragon ball might be from an AP advantage (Vegeta went Super Saiyan to resist Babidi and I think one component of how strong someone's ki is correlates with how strong their mind is.) My point is that we give resistances to these even though they are from an AP advantage, so why wouldn't it apply for this?
The matter manipulation hax only happens when one character has a big AP advantage over another character, for example gotenks destroyed buu's body into vapor with an energy attack but buu could still regenerate, only when an attack like the spirit bomb completely overpowered buu did it atomize him. So they wouldn't get a resistance from that. Side note: Vegeta resisted babidi's mind hax through will power.
 
The matter manipulation hax only happens when one character has a big AP advantage over another character, for example gotenks destroyed buu's body into vapor with an energy attack but buu could still regenerate, only when an attack like the spirit bomb completely overpowered buu did it atomize him. So they wouldn't get a resistance from that.
So im guessing this site doesn't agree with hakai only working on people weaker than you right?
 
Trunks's statement in Daizenshuu is contradicted by what we actually see, it's basically unsupported hype statement.
For SSG, we don't give "Matter Destruction" to characters with the power to destroy the Universe, in this case Low 2-C characters will have to get Spatial Destruction, Matter Destruction, Time Destruction.
It's not necessarily contradicted though. As I said you don't need to completely erase someone to split their atoms. I think it should noted since technically if tank these low 2c attacks you're resisting those effects.
There’s an argument to be had with destroying Cell and Buu, though.
I'll add it as supporting evidence, my first reply in this message applies to you're message as well.
The matter manipulation hax only happens when one character has a big AP advantage over another character, for example gotenks destroyed buu's body into vapor with an energy attack but buu could still regenerate, only when an attack like the spirit bomb completely overpowered buu did it atomize him. So they wouldn't get a resistance from that. Side note: Vegeta resisted babidi's mind hax through will power.
This applies to the other abilities though like hakai, so it should be all or nothing. Like I said their ki blast has the Potency to touch and interact with the atom bonds, so even when its against someone stronger it would be interacting.
 
Yeah but gohan and cell were similar in power level so it doesnt make any sense that a kamehameha would desintrigate it.... yeah i also dont know if is a anti feat or a feat
That proves that you don't need a huge AP advantage to deconstruct. iirc gohan wasn't even stronger than super perfect cell, it was only after vegeta blasted him that he was able to hit him
 
So what level is erasing majin buu, so I can note it.
Beyond vaporization, destroying molecules, or bypassing mid-high regen.
Yeah but gohan and cell were similar in power level so it doesnt make any sense that a kamehameha would desintrigate it.... yeah i also dont know if is a anti feat or a feat
charged ki attacks multiply characters power level significantly, so Gohan's kamehameha was enough to one shot and vaporize.
 

Solar System level as a Super Saiyan 2 (Casually stomped Perfect Cell, easily overpowering his most powerful Kamehameha from a standing position and at the last second. Should be stronger than Super Perfect Cell, and killed him despite losing half of his power)
 
yeah exactly.
When did he lose half of his power, are they referring to him breaking his arm?
yes, gohan said his power was halved after getting his arm blasted.
 
yeah exactly.

yes, gohan said his power was halved after getting his arm blasted.
I'm not too sure if thats supposed to be taken literally I mean I just don't see how losing an arm completely halves your power. But anyways its kind of irrelevant to the topic because this gohan that got his power cut in half was still able to vaporize super perfect cell despite being weaker than him towards the end of the fight
 
about this would this be similar to seyias matter manipulation?
In a way, since cosmos manipulate atoms and ki can as well at a certain point. I know the saint seiya characters are resistant to matter manipulation, do they just simply tank these effects by being stronger?
 
In a way, since cosmos manipulate atoms and ki can as well at a certain point. I know the saint seiya characters are resistant to matter manipulation, do they just simply tank these effects by being stronger?
hmm idk if thats the case then i would have to say limited matter resistances due to them just having to be way stronger then their opponent
 
"insert any mention of Buu"
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I swear these arguments have been brought up a dozen of times (literally) in the last few months, and have been shut down every time, but I'm always open to evidence beyond "X destroyed Y's cells".
 
hmm idk if thats the case then i would have to say limited matter resistances due to them just having to be way stronger then their opponent
I'd be fine with that. Since matter destruction has alot to do with power. In the ssg range for example, they can tank an attack that voids matter, so at that point it really would depend if you're stronger or if the matter manipulation is potent enough.
I swear these arguments have been brought up a dozen of times (literally) in the last few months, and have been shut down every time, but I'm always open to evidence beyond "X destroyed Y's cells".
What would you be looking for, the main points didn't really mention cells specifically.
 
I agree.


Don't really get how Trunks slicing Freeza into atoms would be a "Hyperbole". When Toriyama has made it clear he doesn't like talking shit lmao.
 
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