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Agree
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This post makes sense to me.Yeah, so I obviously disagree.
"Saiki can break the fourth wall to hold his own manga" is no counter-argument to the fact that the prior stuff is no argument in favor of the matter.
It doesn't change the fact that the evidence presented in favor at no point actually shows that these things canonically happened.
You are combining "Saiki once held his own series as a book" and "a different book was shown in the series" to "the different book actually happened", which is not a valid inference. By that reasoning, every other book ever mentioned in the series would have to have happened as well, which is obviously not the case.
The novel doesn't exist in the manga as more than a 4th wall breaking gag. It inferes the same level of "canon" as a character turning to the reader and saying "check out the anime as well".
Just to present the full range of counter-evidence: For a start the novel isn't written by the author.
The novel mentioning the manga is not evidence that it is canon to the manga. (every spin-off and fanfiction does that)
Oh, and it is a crossover. A non-canon crossover to be specific:
So yeah, by all accounts there is not only no actualy evidence in favor of the events in the novel really having happened there is good reason to assume they are non-canon.
(Just tagging @Sir_Ovens to make sure this is seen @DarkDragonMedeus & @Damage3245 since they already evaluated this the last time)
He references the novel to make a gag and promotion, just like he references many other series as a gag. This particular gag only works because he is in both series, yes, but that doesn't mean it's more meaningful of a 4th wall breaking reference. E.g. the J-Stars Victory Vs (crossover fighting game) reference about him using a move from the game also only works since he's in the game, but that doesn't mean that the reference indicates it's canon.This is a bad argument because it relies on the context being stripped from the scenes themselves. He's referencing the novel because both it and the manga are part of the same series, not because every book is something that has happened in real life.
Yes, but for Gintama you wouldn't use the events of the referenced series for giving scaling and abilities. Saying his teleportation works as described is fine (and what we currently do), reference or not.Also the crossovers aren't even a proper argument against canonicity because the series itself is meta and referential. The novel could be one sided canon for Katana Seven but still canon to Saiki. Gintama references and sometimes uses objects from other shounen manga in its humor and that doesn't disqualify those events from being canon to the series itself.
The ability doesn't originate from the novel. The manga itself establishes him having the ability before.The biggest factor I feel is that Saiki directly references his ability in the manga as originating from the novel. That should be more than enough to seal the deal.
Thats not entirely truthful. Saiki can do this and the explanation is literally “the novel”The ability doesn't originate from the novel. The manga itself establishes him having the ability before.
The novel has an explanation, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't originate from there. The manga author didn't decide to copy new abilities from the novel author, is my point.Thats not entirely truthful. Saiki can do this and the explanation is literally “the novel”
Atagnoizing people like that is not acceptable btw. Official warning. Calm down.@AdamVhenJP Try not to choke on it.
Can you send me the scan where he states this upside of teleportation specifically? Without using the novel as evidenceThe novel has an explanation, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that it doesn't originate from there. The manga author didn't decide to copy new abilities from the novel author, is my point.
I will give you that while teleportation is an established power and that many of his limits vanish when he removes his limiter is established, that this particular limit vanishes is (as far as I can think of) not established before that chapter, yes.Can you send me the scan where he states this upside of teleportation specifically? Without using the novel as evidence
I want to see where you got that from
How are these scans real writing, what the hell
The problem I have is that scan and the general manga have no other page that explains that limitation.It seems to me that the references made to the various bits of media are all gags.
My sarcastic comments were directed at Staff that very clearly are biased.Yes, yes, evil staff cabal, biased voting, etc etc. I really tried to consider your position, I just can't agree with it. It requires far, far too many allowances that seem inconsistent. Sorry.
Basically my argument is, Saiki would not know or use the novel as an explanation if it wasnt canon. Saying its a “joke” isnt really enough in this case for the sole fact that the entire manga and the series is comedy.
What are you referring to by "ability" btw? There's a few things in this thread that could be referring to.
DontTalk already agreed that this ability is only established in the novel and Kusuo uses it in the manga directly stating he can do it because of the novelWhile teleportation is an established power and that many of his limits vanish when he removes his limiter is established, that this particular limit vanishes is (as far as I can think of) not established before that chapter, yes.
.... That's all? Using a book or story for explanation or just continusely breaking the fourth wall to reference their own other official medias or story books doesn't mean it's canon tbh, that's literally what happened in MCU. Anything else?Saiki gains an ability in manga that uses the novel as explanation.
Its like “You can teleport with no limits, why? Its because of the from the novel ”
What? If the novel isnt canon then Saiki wouldnt have that ability. Nor would he use it for explanation..... That's all? Using a book or story for explanation or just continusely breaking the fourth wall to reference their own other official medias or story books doesn't mean it's canon tbh
Then Marvel comics would be canon to MCU since if they weren't then it wouldn't have referenced them (well they literally exist in MCU as comics yet aren't canon because of "no evidence of them being their own world rather than stories")What? If the novel isnt canon then Saiki wouldnt have that ability. Nor would he use it for explanation.
I dont know what you want lol
While I'm neutral in this discussion you clearly just twisted his words entirely.Then Marvel comics would be canon to MCU since if they weren't then it wouldn't have referenced them (well they literally exist in MCU as comics yet aren't canon because of "no evidence of them being their own world rather than stories")
Yup. I disagree.
Pretty sure the comics are just background stuff.Then Marvel comics would be canon to MCU since if they weren't then it wouldn't have referenced them (well they literally exist in MCU as comics yet aren't canon because of "no evidence of them being their own world rather than stories")
Which is it using novel as reference to explain the ability? Was i supposed to say "Yup, it makes sense, he has lived 2 lives one in novel and other in manga and thus gained this ability from novel and explained it in manga"? My apologies. I disagree with such an interpretation. If it's anything other than novel reference feel free to get to it.While I'm neutral in this discussion you clearly just twisted his words entirely.
Hmmm. It was an example to explain difference btw what is reference and what is "evidence for canonicity". As long as u get it. There's no need to go over such examples.Also isnt this whataboutism
What?Yup, it makes sense, he has lived 2 lives one in novel and other in manga and thus gained this ability from novel and explained it in manga
4th wall break and novel reference, yeah.Saiki knows about the novels events and so does his brother. Both of them explain Kusuos ability with literally "ooh the novel!"
Didn't Damage disagreed too? Why is his vote not counted.DontTalk still continues to make the most sense on this.
Why. I am waiting for Bambu.What is your next move @ShionAH probably drop this and try again?
We already talked above? I dont see what you mean. He simply disagrees, we did this several times. I cannot change his mind and its okay.Or personally have a decent conversation in private with @DontTalkDT?
Wha- flur?from when he disagreed everyone else only saw your flur and nothing else so Ig its HIM you're gonna speak to
Good luck with that the thread has already passed the limitWhy. I am waiting for Bambu.
You just have bad communication skills, there are several ways to handle this but since its not my verse then do what you want Ig.We already talked above? I dont see what you mean. He simply disagrees, we did this several times. I cannot change his mind and its okay.
Flaw, its a typoWha- flur?
What does that mean
Send me the link for that ruleGood luck with that the thread has already passed the limit
In the official Character Guide Book several locations of the novel appear, and in the manga also appear the same locations..... That's all? Using a book or story for explanation or just continusely breaking the fourth wall to reference their own other official medias or story books doesn't mean it's canon tbh, that's literally what happened in MCU. Anything else?