The Dark Tower: High 1-A Upgrade

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Introduction
Hello everyone.

Earlier this year (Or last year? Idk) I completely revised the book Pennywise profile on this wiki. I think I did a pretty good job, but ever since then I've improved on the scaling and my understanding of the cosmology. After listening to basically weeks worth of audio books, I came up with this cosmology blog. For some time I wanted to bring it over here, and the new revisions to the Tiering System have given me that opportunity.

Explanation/TL;DR
As you can most certainly tell, the blog is absolutely massive and covers a lot of things. I won't torture you by dumping everything here like normal CRTs, I will just give a simple TL;DR on the contents and where they land on our current Tiering System. You can read the blog yourself on your own time.

• The multiverse is basically a hierarchy consisting of infinite r>f transcendences, where higher-up layers see lower layers as mirages/illusions. Just one of these layers would warrant 1-A, but collectively they would reach 1-A+.
• The Dark Tower itself encompasses this multiverse hierarchy and exists beyond it, along with all of time, space, size, and dimensionality. This fits rather nicely with the given definition of High 1-A, and anything above the Dark Tower would be higher up into High 1-A.
• The Beam Guardians and Demon Elementals are cosmic gods that have a fundamental position in the cosmology, and are beyond it. Beyond not just the multiverse, but arguably the Dark Tower as well, given they're emphasized to be transcendent to Ka, a fundamental force of reality that reaches all the way up to the Dark Tower itself. These guys would be one layer above baseline High 1-A. Maturin and Pennywise have a different and higher position in the cosmology.
• The Prim is a giant sea of magic that created and is above everything beforehand (Likely the Beam Guardians as well. Their relationship is up in the air, but given how the Prim is remarked as being above everything it made I think it is a safe assumption). Two layers above baseline High 1-A.
• The Macroverse is an eldritch void that exists beyond the Prim, with the Prim being likened to a mere drop in comparison to the Macroverse's infinity. The Macroverse stretches far beyond everything beforehand, but it also doubles as a space between realities, with these parts of it being known as "Todash Space". Three layers high into High 1-A.
• The Deadlights/IT/Pennywise is an eldritch god that exists beyond everything, including the Macroverse, with it being said that even the Macroverse has nothing in common with the Deadlights in existence. Four layers high into High 1-A.
• Maturin is a benevolent cosmic turtle that stands above the other Beam Guardians (He not only has a higher position in the cosmology, with him carrying all of existence on his back while the other Beam Guardians merely protect the beams of the Dark Tower. Maturin is also described as "semi-divine" in comparison to other Guardians like Shadrik). Maturin is also said to be far more powerful than the Deadlights, so they should be on the same level as the Deadlights.
• Gan is the supreme being of the verse, being the verse's creator deity and sees all of it as fiction. Even powerful beings like Pennywise are nothing more than the smallest mote inside his mind. He resides in a void beyond Maturin and the Deadlights, and is explicitly said to be a power beyond all other powers. Bessa, Gan's wife, is the second strongest being in the verse and should exist in the same level as Gan, but is just lower into it than him. Five layers high into High 1-A.

That should be it. I hope I made everything clear. The blog also contains debunks towards some ideas floating around the powerscaling scene of Dark Tower. They aren't necessary to understand the cosmology, but they are nice to have around. If this CRT goes through then I will update the tiers of the relevant pages accordingly.

Votes
Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

We don´t allow CRTs consisting only of external links that aren´t direct scans to feats or statements, so you need to turn the fictional indexing blog on a VSB one

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Done

 

[Georredannea15]

As far as I know R>F only needs to happen 1 time, for example if there were multiple layers of R>F repeating each other in a hierarchy, it would only give you +1, but let's wait for Ultima anyway

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

As far as I know R>F only needs to happen 1 time, for example if there were multiple layers of R>F repeating each other in a hierarchy, it would only give you +1, but let's wait for Ultima anyway

Ins´t that what OP is saying, though? It ins´t just a finite number of layers giving +1 number of layers, but infinite layers, what would mean a 1-A+ rating as far as i am aware

 

[Georredannea15]

Ins´t that what OP is saying, though? It ins´t just a finite number of layers giving +1 number of layers, but infinite layers, what would mean a 1-A+ rating as far as i am aware

It means H1-B actually,
Imagine here layers of R>F each giving +1, do we start the first layer of R>F at 1-A... I don't think so, because there is another R>F that goes beyond it.

But as I said, let's wait for Ultima anyway

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

It means H1-B actually,
Imagine here layers of R>F each giving +1, do we start the first layer of R>F at 1-A... I don't think so, because there is another R>F that goes beyond it.

But as I said, let's wait for Ultima anyway

Oh yeah i forgot to include the R>F part on my comment, but i was referring to Infinite layers of R>F

Btw (Tiering System page):

This tier can be extended into higher levels in the same vein as 1-C and 1-B. And should a character or object effect something equivalent to infinitely many of such levels, they should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

It´s okay to wait for Ultima, but i personally think that the logic being used is fine

 

[Georredannea15]

Oh yeah i forgot to include the R>F part on my comment, but i was referring to Infinite layers of R>F

Btw (Tiering System page):


It´s okay to wait for Ultima, but i personally think that the logic being used is fine

I get your point, but let's wait for Ultima

 

[Phoenks]

It means H1-B actually,
Imagine here layers of R>F each giving +1, do we start the first layer of R>F at 1-A... I don't think so, because there is another R>F that goes beyond it.

But as I said, let's wait for Ultima anyway

The first layer of genuine R>F is 1-A under Ultima's system though, since it is a qualitative difference.

So if there are indeed infinite layers of R>F here, it would be 1-A+, yeah.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

So if there are indeed infinite layers of R>F here, it would be 1-A+, yeah.

There is, speaking on terms of what is shown about the verse.

In case the TL;DR wasn't clear enough, the multiverse is Dark Tower consists of an infinite amount of universes. These universes act as the layers/levels/"steps" of the Dark Tower, with each and every single one of these layers transcending the one before it. Higher-up layers in the stack see lower layers as illusions (Mirages, for exact wording), and lower levels are generally remarked as being absolutely tiny in comparison to higher-up levels (I.E. That famous atom on a blade of grass statement). Higher-up levels are also emphasized to be unreachable/inaccessible to those on lower levels under normal circumstances, with even powerful characters like the Crimson King needing help from beings beyond the Dark Tower entirely (The Deadlights) in order access a higher level in the stack.

Real tiershit.

 

[Rutæhh]

agree

 

[Phoenks]

There is, speaking on terms of what is shown about the verse.

In case the TL;DR wasn't clear enough, the multiverse is Dark Tower consists of an infinite amount of universes. These universes act as the layers/levels/"steps" of the Dark Tower, with each and every single one of these layers transcending the one before it. Higher-up layers in the stack see lower layers as illusions (Mirages, for exact wording), and lower levels are generally remarked as being absolutely tiny in comparison to higher-up levels (I.E. That famous atom on a blade of grass statement). Higher-up levels are also emphasized to be unreachable/inaccessible to those on lower levels under normal circumstances, with even powerful characters like the Crimson King needing help from beings beyond the Dark Tower entirely (The Deadlights) in order access a higher level in the stack.

Real tiershit.

The only thing that might be an issue is the grass analogy, since it re-compositions the layers by making them seem relative in size. Even if a layer is "infinitesimal" in comparison to another one, that's still a measurable and compositional relationship, rather than an ontological one.

Though given the other statements of them being completely inaccessible, and the parts about lower layers being mirages to higher ones, it can probably be looked over.

I'm of course not really an expert ( don't think anyone is yet ), so gotta wait for them Ultima replies. But I think 1-A+ for the Multiverse stuff is prolly legit.

As for everything else... no damn way I'm going through all that and breaking it down. Kudos to you for that, but that's way beyond me!

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The only thing that might be an issue is the grass analogy, since it re-compositions the layers by making them seem relative in size. Even if a layer is "infinitesimal" in comparison to another one, that's still a measurable and compositional relationship, rather than an ontological one.

Size analogies to describe immensity of higher plane are fine for the new tiering system btw.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

The only thing that might be an issue is the grass analogy, since it re-compositions the layers by making them seem relative in size. Even if a layer is "infinitesimal" in comparison to another one, that's still a measurable and compositional relationship, rather than an ontological one.

I don't think it would be detrimental. The grass thing is just an estimation one character used to help explain how big the multiverse truly is to another character, an approximation.

As for everything else... no damn way I'm going through all that and breaking it down. Kudos to you for that, but that's way beyond me!

Thanks. I wasn't kidding when I said I went through about at least a week's worth of time in audiobooks. The IT audiobook alone was over 40 ******* hours long.

 

[Phoenks]

I don't think it would be detrimental. The grass thing is just an estimation one character used to help explain how big the multiverse truly is to another character, an approximation.

Size things to describe immensity of higher plane are fine for the new tiering system btw.

Yeah I doubted it would matter, but yeah with it just being some character's explanation it most definitely can just be used as further support.

The Dark Tower High 1-A also seems pretty legit since it generates the concepts that the multiverse operates on while being beyond those concepts itself. Sounds like a Meta-Qualitative superiority to me.

Btw, for layering in High 1-A, I still don't completely know how it will work. Cause there's "Meta-" layers and there's also just layers.

Like you can have a hierarchy of layers within a single Meta-Quality layer. And then you could have a Meta-Meta-Quality layer above that hierarchy.

I'm unsure which of these you refer to when you say "layer."

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Btw, for layering in High 1-A, I still don't completely know how it will work. Cause there's "Meta-" layers and there's also just layers.

Like you can have a hierarchy of layers within a single Meta-Quality layer. And then you could have a Meta-Meta-Quality layer above that hierarchy.

I'm unsure which of these you refer to when you say "layer."

Probably should have been more clear on that, sorry.

When I say "layer" in the TL;DR with stuff beyond the Dark Tower, I mean they exist on higher Meta-Quality layers, not just layers in one Meta-Quality layer. To my understanding that better fits them than the latter.

 

[Phoenks]

I see, okay. Maybe we can just refer to higher meta-layers as "Quality layers" or something. Seems more clear.

 

[Kairach]

I like all of the evidence provided but have a few questions on how you come to some conclusions. How does Bessa exist outside of the Macroverse? You didn't provide proof to be able to make that claim. The Macroverse is completely different from Todash Darkness and Todash Space from my readings, which you mix up a lot in your post. It is also shown in many occasions monsters from these spaces aren't anything special.

The Macroverse shouldn't also exist below the Prim, as it's stated it would blink out of existence when the Tower would fall, which would go against the King's goals of bringing everything back to the Prim, as if the Macroverse doesn't exist then how would the Prim?

Overall everything else is pretty good and well researched, there are some books I believe you don't have within the cosmology but I don't care about talking about that stuff.

 

[Georredannea15]

The first layer of genuine R>F is 1-A under Ultima's system though, since it is a qualitative difference.

I mean, if there is more than one R>F, isn't this fundamentally against "true R>F" and qualitative superiority? I also know that the true R>F starts from 1-A

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I mean, if there is more than one R>F, isn't this fundamentally against "true R>F" and qualitative superiority? I also know that the true R>F starts from 1-A

????????????

There can be hierarchies of R>F.

 

[Georredannea15]

????????????

There can be hierarchies of R>F.

I mean, you know. Qualitative superiority should not depend on any quantitative structure or hierarchy, it's greater then them, so wouldn't that basically be against 1-A? I don't know, I'm undecided.

I guess it would be best to wait for Ultima here

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I mean, you know. Qualitative superiority should not depend on any quantitative structure or hierarchy, it's greater then them, so wouldn't that basically be against 1-A? I don't know, I'm undecided.

I guess it would be best to wait for Ultima here

His answer about subjects like this are pretty clear. (that there can be hierarchies)

 

[Georredannea15]

His answer about subjects like this are pretty clear. (that there can be hierarchies)

You know what? That's what I was looking for, thank you.

So the R>F hierarchy here is "high into 1-A" like Ultima said, right?

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

How does Bessa exist outside of the Macroverse? You didn't provide proof to be able to make that claim.

Why wouldn't she? Not only is she comparable to Gan, but is emphasized to be the second strongest being in the verse, only being behind Gan, which would put her above beings like Pennywise and Maturin.

The Macroverse is completely different from Todash Darkness and Todash Space from my readings, which you mix up a lot in your post.

I don't think it is all that much of a stretch to say that they're the same thing, especially since they're described pretty much identically. With them both being giant black voids that contain monsters. If anything it would be kind of strange for them not to be the same place, or just two different names for the same place.

It is also shown in many occasions monsters from these spaces aren't anything special.

I don't see how that is relevant.

The Macroverse shouldn't also exist below the Prim, as it's stated it would blink out of existence when the Tower would fall, which would go against the King's goals of bringing everything back to the Prim, as if the Macroverse doesn't exist then how would the Prim?

Since when did I argue the Macroverse exists below the Prim? Throughout both the TL;DR and blog I argued pretty thoroughly for it to be above the Prim, the exact opposite.

 

[Phoenks]

You know what? That's what I was looking for, thank you.

So the R>F hierarchy here is "high into 1-A" like Ultima said, right?

It'd be 1-A+ here since this verse actually explicitly has infinite layers rather than an arbitrarily large number of them like in Megaton.

And should a character or object effect something equivalent to infinitely many of such levels, they should have a "+" modifier in their Attack Potency section (Outerverse level+).

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

I think I'm gonna wait until Ultima comes around before I start adding votes, since his say is what ultimately determines everything.

 

[Kairach]

Why wouldn't she? Not only is she comparable to Gan, but is emphasized to be the second strongest being in the verse, only being behind Gan, which would put her above beings like Pennywise and Maturin.

Nothing you've shown within the blog can be used to come to that conclusion.

I don't think it is all that much of a stretch to say that they're the same thing, especially since they're described pretty much identically. With them both being giant black voids that contain monsters. If anything it would be kind of strange for them not to be the same place, or just two different names for the same place.

It is when the scan I posted, this one, says that that the Todash space is "the darkness between worlds." So how can the Macroverse be between worlds but be above the Prim?

Since when did I argue the Macroverse exists below the Prim? Throughout both the TL;DR and blog I argued pretty thoroughly for it to be above the Prim, the exact opposite.

You misinterpreted what I said, I gave you two scans, one which proved that if the Tower fell then the Macroverse would blink out of existence and another that shows the goal of the King, his whole purpose is to bring everything back to the Prim, so again why would he want to destroy the Macroverse if it held the Prim within it? Would that not go against his whole goal?

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Nothing you've shown within the blog can be used to come to that conclusion.

She is stronger than beings that exist above the Macroverse. She would still have have a level of power beyond the Macroverse.

It is when the scan I posted, this one, says that that the Todash space is "the darkness between worlds." So how can the Macroverse be between worlds but be above the Prim?

Because Todash Space isn't the Macroverse in its entirety. It is just the parts of it that exist between the worlds, smaller chunks of it.

You misinterpreted what I said, I gave you two scans, one which proved that if the Tower fell then the Macroverse would blink out of existence and another that shows the goal of the King, his whole purpose is to bring everything back to the Prim, so again why would he want to destroy the Macroverse if it held the Prim within it? Would that not go against his whole goal?

I think a better way of looking at that first scan is that they're simply not referring to the giant black void beyond the Prim. "Macroverse" is not a word that solidly means anything in the Dark Tower mythos, it is just a name that some characters use to refer to different structures (And which structure is being referred to would depend on the context surrounding it), the structure being referred to here being the multiverse. Especially since it makes no sense for the Macroverse (The black void) to be reliant on the Dark Tower, given it exists far beyond it and predates its conception. The Dark Tower Concordance, a sort of dictionary for terms and things in the Dark Tower mythos, even says that "Macroverse" is a term often used to refer to all of the worlds that exist in the Dark Tower.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Still going to reference the aforementioned big black void as the "Macroverse", because calling the multiverse anything other than "the multiverse" is unnecessary.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Because Todash Space isn't the Macroverse in its entirety. It is just the parts of it that exist between the worlds, smaller chunks of it.

That is my personal explanation on it, because it is honestly unreasonable for there to be two pitch black, aspatial, atemporal voids full of monsters that are entirely unrelated to each other.

 

[Kairach]

She is stronger than beings that exist above the Macroverse. She would still have have a level of power beyond the Macroverse.

And you haven't shown any proof of that within the post

Because Todash Space isn't the Macroverse in its entirety. It is just the parts of it that exist between the worlds, smaller chunks of it.

And how do you come to this conclusion?

I think a better way of looking at that first scan is that they're simply not referring to the giant black void beyond the Prim. "Macroverse" is not a word that solidly means anything in the Dark Tower mythos, it is just a name that some characters use to refer to different structures (And which structure is being referred to would depend on the context surrounding it), the structure being referred to here being the multiverse. Especially since it makes no sense for the Macroverse (The black void) to be reliant on the Dark Tower, given it exists far beyond it and predates its conception. The Dark Tower Concordance, a sort of dictionary for terms and things in the Dark Tower mythos, even says that "Macroverse" is a term often used to refer to all of the worlds that exist in the Dark Tower.

Using a secondary source for your argument isn't a good one, also why would anyone say "Macroverse" over "Multiverse" everyone with some level of knowledge of how the verse works would know they are two different things. Also you make the point that the scan doesn't make sense, as you make the argument of the Macroverse relying on the Dark Tower for my scan to not make sense? That is not what the scan says at all within the context of the Macroverse being the Macroverse, all it's saying is the fall of the Tower would be enough to destroy the Macroverse.

 

[Kairach]

That is my personal explanation on it, because it is honestly unreasonable for there to be two pitch black, aspatial, atemporal voids full of monsters that are entirely unrelated to each other.

If you want to discuss cosmology than we can as you and me have entirely different interpretations on the verse.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

And you haven't shown any proof of that within the post

I have in the actual blog. She is said explicitly to be above all the other gods except Gan.

And how do you come to this conclusion?

Because it is weird to say that two things that are described in precisely the same way to be entirely separate from one another.

Using a secondary source for your argument isn't a good one, also why would anyone say "Macroverse" over "Multiverse" everyone with some level of knowledge of how the verse works would know they are two different things.

Doesn't matter, it is still acknowledged as a term used to refer to the multiverse in a book that Stephen King approves of and sells on his website.

Also you make the point that the scan doesn't make sense, as you make the argument of the Macroverse relying on the Dark Tower for my scan to not make sense? That is not what the scan says at all within the context of the Macroverse being the Macroverse, all it's saying is the fall of the Tower would be enough to destroy the Macroverse.

I'm saying your point that "Macroverse" in this specific statement referring to the giant black void beyond the Prim makes sense, because it fundamentally doesn't make sense for the void to be destroyed when the Dark Tower falls because it absolutely transcends it.

Also since you want to use the fact that I'm using a secondary source against me, that scan you are using comes from the Dark Tower Glossary, which not only ties into the very book I am using here, but said book is actually a more complete and revised version of it.

 

[Kairach]

I have in the actual blog. She is said explicitly to be above all the other gods except Gan.

I don't see one scan that says that, can you post it here?

Because it is weird to say that two things that are described in precisely the same way to be entirely separate from one another.

I have never seen them ever described the same way, and even if we said they are described the same way the difference is that one is below and one is above.

Doesn't matter, it is still acknowledged as a term used to refer to the multiverse in a book that Stephen King approves of and sells on his website.

You're putting all your trust within this book, if it doesn't align with what the main novels say then I can also just shove the proof away.

I'm saying your point that "Macroverse" in this specific statement referring to the giant black void beyond the Prim makes sense, because it fundamentally doesn't make sense for the void to be destroyed when the Dark Tower falls because it absolutely transcends it.

Also since you want to use the fact that I'm using a secondary source against me, that scan you are using comes from the Dark Tower Glossary, which not only ties into the very book I am using here, but said book is actually a more complete and revised version of it.

I'm gonna concede on that point of secondary sources and just go back to what I was saying, how do you come to this conclusion that the Macroverse exists outside of the Prim?

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

I don't see one scan that says that, can you post it here?

As the wife of the initiator of ka, Bessa is believed to be the only god or goddess with enough influence upon the forces of the universe to actually alter a human being's fate.

Basically saying that because of her position as Gan's wife (The initiator of Ka), Bessa is the only god powerful enough to influence a human being's fate, having superior influence over the forces of existence than any other god besides Gan himself.

I have never seen them ever described the same way, and even if we said they are described the same way the difference is that one is below and one is above.

In the original book of IT the Macroverse is said to be a giant black void, just like how Todash Space is typically described as, a giant black void. As for that latter bit, like how I've been saying this entire time, Todash Space is likely just smaller bits of the Macroverse.

You're putting all your trust within this book, if it doesn't align with what the main novels say then I can also just shove the proof away.

Says the person whose whole argument beforehand relied on a lesser version of that book. I could have also shoved your "proof" away.

how do you come to this conclusion that the Macroverse exists outside of the Prim?

....

 

[Kairach]

Basically saying that because of her position as Gan's wife (The initiator of Ka), Bessa is the only god powerful enough to influence a human being's fate, having superior influence over the forces of existence than any other god besides Gan himself.

All that scan said was that she was the only one that could manipulate fate, that had nothing to do with the stance within the verse.

In the original book of IT the Macroverse is said to be a giant black void, just like how Todash Space is typically described as, a giant black void. As for that latter bit, like how I've been saying this entire time, Todash Space is likely just smaller bits of the Macroverse.

So because they are both voids they need to be the same or similar? The whole idea of the Prim is supposed to be the last void, as it's called the "Archetypal void" which is a concept, that's like saying you can have duality outside of duality, if it doesn't encompass the idea than it isn't archetypal.

Says the person whose whole argument beforehand relied on a lesser version of that book. I could have also shoved your "proof" away.

Go ahead, idc, I only care about what aligns with what the book says.

....

Your whole argument is based heavily on the fact that you believe Todash Space, Todash Darkness, and Macroverse are all the same when you haven't showed proof for the Macroverse to be equal to any of that, I would like an actual statement where it makes a connection between them instead of canon mixing.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

All that scan said was that she was the only one that could manipulate fate, that had nothing to do with the stance within the verse.

As the wife of the initiator of ka, Bessa is believed to be the only god or goddess with enough influence upon the forces of the universe to actually alter a human being's fate

And its saying that she is able to do so because she is the one and only god strong enough to do so. Which would directly mean she is the second strongest god, only behind her husband Gan. You completely overlooked the part that actually mattered.

So because they are both voids they need to be the same or similar?

Your whole argument is based heavily on the fact that you believe Todash Space, Todash Darkness, and Macroverse are all the same when you haven't showed proof for the Macroverse to be equal to any of that, I would like an actual statement where it makes a connection between them instead of canon mixing.

There actually is a part of the last book in the Dark Tower series that refers to the giant void as the "Macroverse". Aside from that, I'm saying they're most likely connected because their given descriptions are exactly the same. Pretty much identical. I find it really unreasonable to assume that they're just entirely different places and are just coincidentally very similar. I think that is a better conclusion than just shrugging our shoulders like how you're suggesting.

The whole idea of the Prim is supposed to be the last void, as it's called the "Archetypal void" which is a concept, that's like saying you can have duality outside of duality, if it doesn't encompass the idea than it isn't archetypal.

The Prim is explicitly said to be different from the Macroverse, and is moreso described as a giant sea of magical power than a void. So that comparison is flawed.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Bump?

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Honestly just waiting for Ultima at this point. Wait for him to conclude other High 1-A threads.

 

[Gewsbumpz_dude]

Dark Tower AP Revision

vsbattles.fandom.com

Made this so everyone will have an idea on what the AP sections for the affected pages will look like if this CRT (As it is) goes through.