The Arisen vs The Undertale-verse

[Squid_peanut]

Frisk wins by refusing to die until realizing that they can use their power to draw out the personallities of their friends in asriel's soul and have them all open asriel open up to being recharged with emotions. also resisting determinaton based time manipulation seems to at best let memories be retained after time warping

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Undertale as a whole doesn't use determination and killing intent, just the monsters in undertale. Humans still use strength and speed when fighting.
You have this backwards.

The lore says that since monsters are made out of magic they attack the soul and that humans use determination, the strength of their soul, to fight back, humans overpower the monsters and survive these massive attacks they otherwise couldn't because of how much more powerful their souls are.

It's their explanation of the health/damage assymetry often seen in RPGs.

There are only five monsters that used determination. They are called the amalgamates, and they are grotesque abominations that came to be when several monsters fused together (So Cold is Snowdrake's mom and sixteen other people) after being injected with determination in Alphys' lab.

Flowey, being neither human nor monster, was able to use determination correctly and absorb all the different types of souls.


Regardless, the Arisen isn't getting past Frisk. Frisk is a hopeless boss fight for God Asriel. There is no way anyone is getting around that.

 

[ThePerpetual]

And why can't he? I've sort of lost everyone's reasoning here amidst all the developments in messages. Also, do you even know what he's capable of?

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Because, at the end of Undertale, while facing down God Asriel, Frisk decided that they were sick of all the nonsense going around them and became so determined that they refused to die.

As in, Frisk decided that they would become immortal, so they did, even in the face of a character that's probably in the Tier-1 to Tier 0 range.

Frisk literally will not die, even in the face of someone that powerful.


And I've checked the Arisen's character page. At best, he's 2-A.

Frisk became so powerful that they could take hits from God Asriel, despite his infnite stats.

There's no way anyone is getting past type 5 immortality.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Well, that's just it, what "infinite stats" actually mean in regards to what the character's capable of isn't exactly known. It's not like he's literally limitless, at least if "Asriel admits he needs his full power to be able to destroy the barrier" is going to be taken any amount of seriously.

"As in, Frisk decided that they would become immortal, so they did, even in the face of a character that's probably in the Tier-1 to Tier 0 range.

Frisk literally will not die, even in the face of someone that powerful."

May or may not be invoking no-limits fallacy?

And it's not like killing them is necessarily the only answer to victory, anything that contextually would be a victory (as in, getting past the encounter) would be sufficient in this case. If I made all of these "to the death" strictly this would be far more of a headache than it is now.

 

[Squid_peanut]

While defenitely we can't assume no limits, there is still the fact that on a stat scale were 7 atk is roughly city level+, Frisk was able to take hits from an enemy with infinite atk, the stats in undertale show nothing that says they lie persay, just that other facters may be also effecting them. buuuuut, no matter how you modify infinity, it will never stop being infinity, that's sort of it's whole deal. so regardless of all outside factors, we know the stats hold water, and we know the nature of infinity, so the fact that Frisk was able to take this level of attack, and resist it better on command, and heal the entire time, is some pretty good evidence that Frisk could very well have type 5 immortality at max determination.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Well, infinite on a 3-dimensional scale, which these stats seem to measure in for the most part, still doesn't equal 4-D, which is what anything Tier 2 and up is by definition. But yeah, that's part of the reason why it's "unknown." Also also, even if it were infinite on a 4-D scale that's still only 2-A.

Also, I don't even see why Frisk would fight him tbh, he's rather the classic silent white knight good guy type in-canon, nothing you're supposed to do in the main storyline is evil in the context of the world by any stretch of the imagination. He's just got to get past them, if they've no reason to attack each other then they can just have a chat about how their days have been and move on. Unless Frisk is really determined to stop him, I suppose?

...in fact, I'll propose two seperate scenarios, to clarify.

Scenario 1: The Genocide Run (Doesn't hesitate to slay monsters if they won't stand aside): Likely the harder of the two, because bad times and such.

Scenario 2: The Pacifist Run (tries to avoid violence as a means past if possible): Likely the easier of the two, conserving resources and friends and all.

I'd imagine the Undertale-verse would interact very differently with the challenger in each scenario. This help?

 

[Squid_peanut]

well the question actually is, is he killing anyone he defeats or just fighting them till they either give up or the aperent tier 0 that is organizing this event decides that their on their last legs and calls the battle in the arisen's favor

 

[ThePerpetual]

He doesn't have to kill them per se, and actively avoids such in Scenario 1 given that he knows of the monsters' not-evil ness, so yes there. In-character, remember. The second one, though, I'd imagine he doesn't care if he kills them. From his PoV, just like in the context of his own verse, the whole lot of the monsters are evil.

It would only be ruled in his favor if it was obvious that they weren't going to be able to meaningfully resist any time soon, if Regenerationn/ressurection was fast enough then it wouldn't matter I suppose. It should be noted that The Seneschal (last stat block) has the power to simply suppress any such ressurrection, even overriding things like wakestones that bring people back to life, though how that would interact with the hax defensive abilities of Undertale's top tiers is something I still speculate on.

 

[Squid_peanut]

wouldn't work on Flowey or Asriel as what they do is turning back time as opposed to just resurecting. Frisk unclear as their max determination "revives" seem to be more pulling themself back together when near death (as seen with Udnyne) so it's sort of like getting picked up in left 4 dead except by themselves where the damage would probobly catch up eventually if they neglect to keep their health up with other stuff. what does the a wakestone literally do, and which scenario do we have (this matters since how many indiduals the arisen kills affects the sans fight greatly.)

 

[ThePerpetual]

^Exactly my point on the Sans fight, if too much is lost there too quickly, then he might not have enough steam left to make it to the later enemies.

A wakestone is an item that can defy death by... well, bringing someone back from death. Automatically works on self if you die. Basically, his last two lives are each two lives, for effectively six total.

Hence, two scenarios. One Pacifist run, where as many characters as possible as simply befriended as thus not required to be fought in the first place, potentially even sleep spell so as to incapacitate without killing. Another, a Genocide Run, where unless they simply get out of the way first thing he goes to kill.

I'm wondering how you would describe each one going.

 

[Squid_peanut]

the pacifist scenario's a bit of a problem as it would probably cause the UtU and sans fights to just not happen because Undyne would lack the scenario to get determined and sans just wouldn't care that much. heck even Frisk may not happen since they'ed have no reason to fight. Also the anti wakestone tech wouldn't effect Frisk M.D. it seems.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Again, if they realize they don't need to fight in that instance they don't have to per se, The Arisen's goal is not to kill everything but to get past the gauntlet. I didn't exactly make a traditional versus thread here, that's what I like about it. Requires a bit more thought.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

If you want to try the Pacifist run for the Arisen throughout Undertale, having him not try to kill a single thing, he would likely go a fairly decent ways before hitting a roadblock of some description.

It sounds more like a really fun fanfiction than a true VS battle. The thinking there is whether or not the Arisen is as much of a guile hero as Frisk. Food for thought, not for fight.

In the Pacifist route, the hardest fight would be Omega Flowey (Can he figure out how to remove his powers?) and the easiest would be Frisk ("Frisk is sparing you," "SPARE").

 

[ThePerpetual]

Well, being a comabt genius is one of his main things, he's less a physicality-based fighter in-context and more a cleverness one. I guess comparable to Link , after a fashion (which is ironic, given the Berserk armors available in the game).

And remember, it's not like I'm throwing all his weapons in the trash, he can still defend himself if entirely forced to.

Speaking of weapons...

Now, for the Genocide route. I'm imagining that'd be a kajillion times harder, but your thoughts?

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Nah, the Genocide route is far easier.

Pacifist is rough because he can't whip out his Infinity+1 sword and kill everything because that would be harming a bunch of innocents. He specifically CAN'T use his weapons. He has to duck and dodge. He also has to deal with something he likely isn't too practiced in: persuading the enemy to go away instead of using his combat skills to murder them all.

The Pacifist route is the path of most resistance. You CAN'T kill. That's the easy way out.

That's what Flowey wants to prove to everyone.


Genocide is a stomp-fest against anything that isn't Undyne the Undying or Sans (Except Mettaton, perhaps, if either Mettaton uses that arm cannon of his or the Arisen is unsure about fighting human-looking opponents).

Outside of that, there's nothing threatening. At all.

Everything dies in one hit and is freaking terrified by this man who is deliberately hunting them down.


The original plan of "Fights everyone sequentially by difficulty until he dies" is probably the best bet to see how long he would last.

 

[Squid_peanut]

genocide type route he would be defeated way more easily as he would shift into the exact kind of opponent sans is spec'd for. that pluss Frisk would make him have a very bad time. also while it's fun to wonder about how the arisen might aproach the gauntlet, I think we should try to determine if doing one route or the other would change the initial outcome that the Arisen loses, which it doesn't seem to do. so in an effort to get us more on topic, after hearing all that's been said who still believes that the Arisen could defeat the verse and why?

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Dude, he's already butchered how many monsters in his home game?

That's all KR fuel right there.


If Frisk is still there during the Arisen's Genocide run, that might bring Chara back into the mix.

And then nobody would be able to play Dragon's Dogma again because their franchise would be dead.


The Pacifist route will end in him fighting either Omega Flowey or God Asriel, both of whom are hopeless boss-fights if he doesn't know to A. Call for help from the other souls, or B. Doesn't manage to save all the lost souls and keep Asriel comfortable.

The Genocide route only puts him up against Sans, whose time-warping isn't nearly as problematic. He still likely dies, but he at least has a fighting chance, if he really is FTL in his final forms.


Yeah, I'm not seeing him make it through either one, but Genocide is easier, seeing as the foe isn't freaking UNKILLABLE.

Seriously, Omega Flowey can just restart the fight whenever he wants until he wins, and God Asriel is literally a ten-year-old's DeviantArt Mary Sue character come to life, complete with rainbows, sparkles, an overly dramatic name, and attacks that are WAY too flashy and overkill.

 

[The_Everlasting]

So killing countless evil monsters is sinful? Good to know.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Dude, he's already butchered how many monsters in his home game?
That's all KR fuel right there.


If Frisk is still there during the Arisen's Genocide run, that might bring Chara back into the mix.

And then nobody would be able to play Dragon's Dogma again because their franchise would be dead.


The Pacifist route will end in him fighting either Omega Flowey or God Asriel, both of whom are hopeless boss-fights if he doesn't know to A. Call for help from the other souls, or B. Doesn't manage to save all the lost souls and keep Asriel comfortable.

The Genocide route only puts him up against Sans, whose time-warping isn't nearly as problematic. He still likely dies, but he at least has a fighting chance, if he really is FTL in his final forms.


Yeah, I'm not seeing him make it through either one, but Genocide is easier, seeing as the foe isn't freaking UNKILLABLE.

Seriously, Omega Flowey can just restart the fight whenever he wants until he wins, and God Asriel is literally a ten-year-old's DeviantArt Mary Sue character come to life, complete with rainbows, sparkles, an overly dramatic name, and attacks that are WAY too flashy and overkill.

the route chosen doesn't change the gauntlet it just changes how the arisen is "beating each character because it effects sans and Frisk, he would still have to fight up to Asriel.

 

[Squid_peanut]

So killing countless evil monsters is sinful? Good to know.

well specifically speaking killing allows you to distance yourself emotionally and doing that allows someone to better access their determination since they lack inhibitions or remorse. This quantifiable thing then effects KR.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Aye. In the context of his own verse, those things are evil (often directly threatening the lives of innocents right there in front of you, in fact), barring Grigori (ironically, given his status as the final boss of the main game), who wants you to prove your will to be strong enough to defeat him so that a new potential candidate for a Seneschal can be found among the ranks of the Arisen. Remember, there's lots of different dragons in lots of different worlds, all looking for potential Arisen among the ranks of humanity; the story of Grigori finding you, the player character, is just one of such stories. There's things like the lore, the manga, the stories of other pawns (like Olga's story about Daimon and how his quest went super, horribly wrong) that reinforce this, it's all a natural part of how the cosmology functions. Much like Elder Scrolls, the lore here is weird as all hell, but since we're talking Undertale it's not like that much is an issue.

Restarting the fight may or may not help, given that the Seneschal may or may not exist outside of time entirely being that which keeps the Eternal Cycle (i.e. a metaphysical concept fundamental to the verse's existence that sustains all of it's known reality) running and alive at any given point in time, and even if it did it's not like The Seneschal at least could participate in this "Eternal Cycle" of Flowey's as long as... well, forever, which would result in the battle never, never, ever ending.

I'm just getting headaches now, we don't even know how to define his, Flowey's, or Asriel's actual capabilities...

 

[Angry_Dummy]

And this is why I prefer Death Battle's way of dealing with things: feats, feats feats. If you don't got 'em, get out.

 

[WarriorWare]

Angry Dummy, you know darn well that's not an accurate description.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Please don't.

Do you have anything to add to the thread?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I swear if this turns into another thread about DeathBattle, I'll eat my own hat and Stuttering Craig will cry.

Anyway, since we're doing both to the death fighs as well as mercy fights, here's how I think it'll go.

To the Death

R1: Gets ganked by pretty much any named character.

R2: Clears most named characters due to raw power, gets murdered by Sans.

R3: Probably gets murdered by Sans. If he wins, he still almost surely loses to UtU.

R4: Makes it to Omega Flowey, but has a 99% chance of stopping there, as Flowey simply has him completely outhaxed, even assuming Arisen's absolute maximum power.

Merciful

R1: Very possibly able to talk his way out of every fight up until Undyne, who likely just kills him.

R2: Either talks most characters down or blows them away with raw strength. If he kills too many people, he stops at Sans. If he's mostly merciful, Sans won't fight, and he goes down to UtU (like, that's not even close to a fair fight, on this life).

R3: Just as with the previous life, if he was merciful, Sans doesn't fight him. If he killed too many, Sans likely takes him down, but in the event he passes, UtU almost surely takes care of him.

R4: May very well be able to give the human souls enough power to break free of Flowey, but that's uncertain, as Frisk is a special case. Even if he does, he isn't getting past Asriel. Seeing as Asriel has no emotional attatchment to the Arisen like he did to Frisk, the Arisen isn't going to be able to take advantage of that, and I don't see him competing with Asriel's hax.