The Arisen vs The Undertale-verse

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

or he's up against Omega Flowey, and still losing, because of this.

Dat save scumming.

 

[The_Everlasting]

That's not how the fight goes, The Arisen isn't fighting everyone again on a new life, he's getting as far as he can without dying, and then continuing where he left off. Why are you even mentioning Chara possessing The Arisen?

Ultimately, it would go:

Life 1: Not really sure, considering my lack of knowledge in Undertale low-tiers, but definately doesn't get past Undyne.

Life 2: Clears basically everyone but gets stopped by Undyne the Undying.

Life 3: Should be able to defeat everyone up to Sans, who could prove problematic with Karmic Retribution, but with The Arisen's plethora of healing items, I'd say he could get through.

Life 4: Gets defeated by God Flowey, but could possibly clear, full power Asriel included.

 

[ThePerpetual]

He's kinda sorta immune to possession even from universal reality warpers, and has fought a few notable characters with telekinetic abilities before. Granted, his pawns aren't, but he can smack it out of them then revive them. He's also got... soul damaging/manipulation, fire/ice/lightning/holy/dark-based spells and attacks, an instant-kill spell with Exequy, immunity to mindscrewing, a resistance to soul-based attacks, and absolutely absurd stamina. Also, as the Seneschal, reality warping.

At any rate, are we going to establish an order the guy fights the characters? I think we've got to decide before we progress further.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Life 4: Gets defeated by God Flowey, but could possibly clear, full power Asriel included.

I can't see Arisen taking down Asriel, even going by the absolute highest estimation of his power. He doesn't have the hax needed to put Asriel down for good, and raw power alone isn't even going to come close to doing it.

 

[The_Everlasting]

He's possibly Multiverse Level+, why would he need hax to take down Asriel?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

At any rate, are we going to establish an order the guy fights the characters? I think we've got to decide before we progress further.

I think we have a relatively rough order.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

He's possibly Multiverse Level+, why would he need hax to take down Asriel?

Because it wouldn't actually do anything to him? Not only is Asriel infinitely faster, but literally every time he was possibly killed, he'd already be alive again as if he never died. He can save scum harder than Omega Flowey, he just doesn't need to against Frisk.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Well, "possibly" does matter, we know he's somewhere between there. That's why I liked this, it seemed fair to some degree or another. That's a fair point, though.

What would count as "beating" Asriel, in this instance, if I may ask? What would constitute that?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

What would count as "beating" Asriel, in this instance, if I may ask? What would constitute that?

Being able to make him unable to fight or completely removing him from existence. Destroying him isn't even incapacitation as it would be with a character who needs to regenerate. He'd literally already be back on his feet the nanosecond he died.

 

[Pikachu942]

I can't see Arisen, even at his max power, getting past God Flowey, let alone Asriel, LET ALONE Max Power Asriel who even max determination Frisk, while he had enough determination to not die, could literally do NOTHING to him (he could at least move and do minimal damage to Flowey and at least move against Asriel)

 

[Angry_Dummy]

We understand the rules perfectly. We're arguing a bit about order of events, however. As for your other questions, the Undertale low-tiers typically hang around town to city level.

Characters like Lesser Dog, Doggo, Papyrus, Greater Dog, and Mettaton are all game-enders for the first life.

I mention Chara possessing the Arisen because, according to Undertale lore, they have possessed every single RPG hero ever. That's their whole identity: the demon who comes when you call their name, who grinds away at monsters until they've maxed out their level, killed the final boss, and then deleted that world to move on to the next. Makes it really hard to kill them.

UtU still outranks him at the third life, though he is faster. UtU is like a glacier compared to him, though.

Sans doesn't play fair, ever. Enjoy getting attacked on the items menu. That'll blow through your stock real quick.

Chara... er...

Omega Flowey is impossible to beat for him. The guy save-scums. As long as his human souls obey him, that's game.

 

[ThePerpetual]

@Azathoth Not sure if his reality-warping is high grade enough... granted, Daimon can erase people into the Rift forever, and can potentially destroy a universe, logically The Seneschal at least = that, but would that be enough for a Multi-Universe entity?

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Asriel's stats: Atk. Infinite/Def. Infinite

Not even close.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth Not sure if his reality-warping is high grade enough... granted, Daimon can erase people into the Rift forever, and can potentially destroy a universe, logically The Seneschal at least = that, but would that be enough for a Multi-Universe entity?

Not sure. It possibly could, but its unknown if God Flowey or Asriel (or Frisk, I suppose) could just save scum out of it.

 

[The_Everlasting]

He's possibly Multiverse Level+, why would he need hax to take down Asriel?

Because it wouldn't actually do anything to him? Not only is Asriel infinitely faster, but literally every time he was possibly killed, he'd already be alive again as if he never died. He can save scum harder than Omega Flowey, he just doesn't need to against Frisk.

Speed is equalized since we know so little about the Seneschal.

Really? Didn't know that.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Asriel's stats: Atk. Infinite/Def. Infinite
Not even close.

I'm pretty sure that's just the game's way of saying "you can't win", especially since one attack from Asriel doesn't kill you instantly.

 

[ThePerpetual]

You know, I've always wondered what counts as "game mechanics" regarding Undertale and what doesn't, it makes things really interesting. Part of the reason I love these Undertale threads that have been running about.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Speed is equalized since we know so little about the Seneschal.

Really? Didn't know that.

Right. Forgot.

Yeah. Sans may have made it famous, but cheating is pretty much Omega Flowey's entire identity. Asriel doesn't do it because he doesn't need to. By that point, you're literally less than a bug to him. Hell, the first half of the battle (in which he's totally wrecking your shit) is still just him humouring you. The one time he uses an attack that takes even a small fraction of his power, it leaves you nearly dead.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

You know, I've always wondered what counts as "game mechanics" regarding Undertale and what doesn't, it makes things really interesting. Part of the reason I love these Undertale threads that have been running about.

Game mechanics are really weird and interesting in Undertale. Hell, when Gaster is talked about, they say he was "shattered across time and space". You can find pieces of Gaster in the game's unused files and by randomizing FUN values, showing that the game itself does constitute the fabric of reality.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Asriel's stats: Atk. Infinite/Def. Infinite
Not even close.

I'm pretty sure that's just the game's way of saying "you can't win", especially since one attack from Asriel doesn't kill you instantly.

but that's due to Frisk constantly fully restoring their physical body that can withstand universe+ attacks and dodging with immesurable speed, hardly an overstatement on the part of his stats

 

[Squid_peanut]

also I motion that we don't consider Chara possessing the Arison as it's something we don't know the concrete details on that would literally make it impossible for the Arisen to win even if he defeated the whole verse.

 

[ThePerpetual]

"He's kinda sorta immune to possession even from universal reality warpers"

Kinda sorta missed that part I think. The entire connection is that this guy can overcome stuff like that and is superhuman sheerly through force of will, remember? Unless Chara somehow has means past immunity to things on a cosmic, fundamental scale. (Shrugs)

 

[Squid_peanut]

"He's kinda sorta immune to possession even from universal reality warpers"
Kinda sorta missed that part I think. The entire connection is that this guy can overcome stuff like that and is superhuman sheerly through force of will, remember? Unless Chara somehow has means past immunity to things on a cosmic, fundamental scale. (Shrugs)

which we have no evedince that they do so that is now moot

 

[ThePerpetual]

Must have misunderstood you then. Apologies.

 

[Squid_peanut]

no you didn't I was just agreeing with your point as it turned a decision for fairness into an actual fact.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Asriel's stats: Atk. Infinite/Def. Infinite
Not even close.

I'm pretty sure that's just the game's way of saying "you can't win", especially since one attack from Asriel doesn't kill you instantly.

but that's due to Frisk constantly fully restoring their physical body that can withstand universe+ attacks and dodging with immesurable speed, hardly an overstatement on the part of his stats

Still though, you can survive quite a few blows from Asriel, and if he had really had ∞ attack, you'd die in one shot.

 

[ThePerpetual]

Seems rather contradictory. Either you in turn have infinite HP to some degree or another (and on a strictly 3-D scale, anything Low 2-C or up does anyway so), or they simply aren't "infinite" (whatever they're measuring in.) Again, this is why I love talking Undertale.

 

[Squid_peanut]

then purhaps it could be said that Asriel wasn't giving it his all, a simular thing occured in that Toriel never fought with the strength that her stats said she had.

 

[Angry_Dummy]

Well, there's also the knowledge that, at this point, Frisk can hang on even after getting hit by the biggest attack from him at the tiniest fraction of a hit point. Asriel wants to win so that the player will stay with him forever, so he is definitely going full power. He's destroyed the player's save file, so if they die, they start right back from the beginning.

So Frisk decided that they aren't interested in dying and became immortal.

mhn d.njlb zdf,vnb .fds ,jvbnfdkcb vnfs jvgbbfdbmc vb nfdnm hfb vfdbcj,kdz.lsnfver nhmujfdxj ,kbfvszd,gfdksb


Okay, I feel better now.

Basically, Frisk is an unkillable, unstoppable character whose determination is so high that they can ward off infinity by rejecting the reality of the term.

Undertale does not understand what a game mechanic is. It takes everything literally.

 

[Squid_peanut]

Well, there's also the knowledge that, at this point, Frisk can hang on even after getting hit by the biggest attack from him at the tiniest fraction of a hit point. Asriel wants to win so that the player will stay with him forever, so he is definitely going full power. He's destroyed the player's save file, so if they die, they start right back from the beginning.
So Frisk decided that they aren't interested in dying and became immortal.

mhn d.njlb zdf,vnb .fds ,jvbnfdkcb vnfs jvgbbfdbmc vb nfdnm hfb vfdbcj,kdz.lsnfver nhmujfdxj ,kbfvszd,gfdksb


Okay, I feel better now.

Basically, Frisk is an unkillable, unstoppable character whose determination is so high that they can ward off infinity by rejecting the reality of the term.

Undertale does not understand what a game mechanic is. It takes everything literally.

and then restore their physical form constantly with no aperent adverse effect as Asriel only says that when Frisk "dies" they fade away a bit

 

[Squid_peanut]

god, I know this is off topic and I'm sorry about that but the statement "Frisk decided that they aren't interested in dying and became immortal" just, this derp faced like 8 year old with the body porportians of a lamp just desides become practically imposible to kill, and just take it, in the hopes that they can save everyone with no one having to die. Frisk is the best fictional Christ figure in my opinion, they decide they aren't going to let anyone die or be sad and just do it.

 

[Dexteradon12]

I also say base Undyne may need to be bumped up to above mettaton & muffet and mettaton neo get taken out since we don't know much of it and it has pathetic defenses

Mettaton Neo has sevel times the defense of normal Mettaton, but it doesn't really matter because genocide frisk is OP as ****

 

[Dexteradon12]

If people are wondering, characters in undertale don't actually use stats. Monsters are made of mostly magic, so as stated throughout the game, how well you dodge attacks is based on how determined you are to do so, not how fast your reflexes are, and how hard your hit is how much killing intent you have, not how strong or percised you are (Although being strong, percised and agile might help you a bit, just like how being determined and having an intent to kill might help you in an actual fight, just not really be huge factors).

\Frisk, a normal human child, was able to take out the king of monsters using only really really good determination (like on levels that he was able to come back from death through willpower alone) and/or killing intent (so much that he wasn't considered to have any form of humanity left) even though his actual stats were just of a normal kid. So how many universes The Arisen can blow up, and how many lightning bolts he can dodge doesn't really matter as much as how determined and murderus he is.

 

[Squid_peanut]

If people are wondering, characters in undertale don't actually use stats. Monsters are made of mostly magic, so as stated throughout the game, how well you dodge attacks is based on how determined you are to do so, not how fast your reflexes are, and how hard your hit is how much killing intent you have, not how strong or percised you are (Although being strong, percised and agile might help you a bit, just like how being determined and having an intent to kill might help you in an actual fight, just not really be huge factors).
\Frisk, a normal human child, was able to take out the king of monsters using only really really good determination (like on levels that he was able to come back from death through willpower alone) and/or killing intent (so much that he wasn't considered to have any form of humanity left) even though his actual stats were just of a normal kid. So how many universes The Arisen can blow up, and how many lightning bolts he can dodge doesn't really matter as much as how determined and murderus he is.

sort of, while what you say is true, just because Undertale uses determination doesn't mean everything else does, so all we can go off of is comparing feats as usual.

 

[ThePerpetual]

@Dexter/Peanut

Even if this is the case, even within his own verse, all of the Arisen's super-humanness and reality-defying powers comes from determination and force of will already, with his heart/soul that he won back from Grigori being sort of the symbol of the Arisen as a whole (much like Frisk's heart symbol, coincidentally.) So there's especially no reason to assume that his stats would be any different is this particular scenario.

 

[Dexteradon12]

sort of, while what you say is true, just because Undertale uses determination doesn't mean everything else does, so all we can go off of is comparing feats as usual.

Not quite. Undertale as a whole doesn't use determination and killing intent, just the monsters in undertale. Humans still use strngth and speed when fighting. And from what we have seen, anyone who fights the monsters in undertale play by their rules, not normal fighting rules (hence why Frisk had to use determination and killing intent even though he was a human, and would normally use strength and speed to fight).

 

[Dexteradon12]

@Dexter/Peanut
Even if this is the case, even within his own verse, all of the Arisen's super-humanness and reality-defying powers comes from determination and force of will already, with his heart/soul that he won back from Grigori being sort of the symbol of the Arisen as a whole (much like Frisk's heart symbol, coincidentally.) So there's especially no reason to assume that his stats would be any different is this particular scenario.

If he is universal in normal stats through determination, I'd say that's about frisk levels of determination. How is he about killIing things?

 

[Squid_peanut]

Frisk has more than universal levels of determination, infact I would say that the one who fits that amount is probably UtU. and in the end, killing intent would only still get him to UtU/sans as Chara definently has more, Frisk has bordering on infinite speed and durability, Omega Flowey can't be harmed much with his defences up, and Asriel is just rediculous in power

 

[ThePerpetual]

It'd be proportional to his defense. Again, all of it is based on force of will. Remember, though, simply getting past the characters is all that's required and everyone's in-character, so simply coming to a realization that they do not necessarily need to fight, engaging in a friendly chat, and moving on is perfectly feasible for some of these. Other people, like Chara, Flowey? Yeah no, he'd want to murder the hell out of that for sure.

So here's a question, what about the Undertale-verse's time manipulation? How would that play into things? I know The Arisen has really high-grade resistance to it, particularly as the Seneschal, and that he can become outright immune to it (or at least some variants/versions of it) with some of his best gear. At the same time, IIRC Flowey and Asriel's variant of such hax are exceedingly meta and function in ways generally not thought of, so...?

Also, on his last life he's pretty much going solo, it's rather made a point of that pawns don't have willpower on their own. The occasional lucky one is an Arisen's main pawn and receive a "spark of life" from them when they complete their cycle and become the next Seneschal, gaining souls of their own and becoming human, but in this case it's inapplicable.

Also, that's the thing, Universal+ is a minimum. We don't know how many Seneschals there are, but it doesn't seem like there are many, and we also do not know how many worlds each one presides over, or whether said worlds are "planets" or "universes." A bare minimum, worst-case scenario is Universal+, but given how one can encounter pawns from other realms of being entirely that's not likely.

On the other hand, we really don't know the extent of Flowey and Asriel's power levels, do we? They're definitely... well, high is an understatement, the characters speak for themselves on that one.

 

[Dexteradon12]

It'd be proportional to his defense. Again, all of it is based on force of will. Remember, though, simply getting past the characters is all that's required and everyone's in-character, so simply coming to a realization that they do not necessarily need to fight, engaging in a friendly chat, and moving on is perfectly feasible for some of these. Other people, like Chara, Flowey? Yeah no, he'd want to murder the hell out of that for sure.
So here's a question, what about the Undertale-verse's time manipulation? How would that play into things? I know The Arisen has really high-grade resistance to it, particularly as the Seneschal, and that he can become outright immune to it (or at least some variants/versions of it) with some of his best gear. At the same time, IIRC Flowey and Asriel's variant of such hax are exceedingly meta and function in ways generally not thought of, so...?

Also, on his last life he's pretty much going solo, it's rather made a point of that pawns don't have willpower on their own. The occasional lucky one is an Arisen's main pawn and receive a "spark of life" from them when they complete their cycle and become the next Seneschal, gaining souls of their own and becoming human, but in this case it's inapplicable.

Also, that's the thing, Universal+ is a minimum. We don't know how many Seneschals there are, but it doesn't seem like there are many, and we also do not know how many worlds each one presides over, or whether said worlds are "planets" or "universes." A bare minimum, worst-case scenario is Universal+, but given how one can encounter pawns from other realms of being entirely that's not likely.

On the other hand, we really don't know the extent of Flowey and Asriel's power levels, do we? They're definitely... well, high is an understatement, the characters speak for themselves on that one.

Unless they are fighting frisk, they aren't going to be friends with anyone in the gauntlet really. Except maybe papyrus. That is a big maybe.

As for the extent of Flowery, and Chara Asriel power, they throw around universes, Crack and destroy them, create them and everything like they aren't even shit. Asriel is stated to having infinite power, and when he uses more then a fraction of his true through you are unable to move or fight, or even use save files and the like. You only win by plot.