Tensura ln 2-C durability Downgrade

[Shiraito983]

Should be simple

---

the durability justification is that they can withstand Dino's skill, which is meant to be 2-C because he is the ultimate user

Low Multiverse level (Ultimate Skill users can fend off against Dino's Ultimate Skill[11] that turns everything to dust[12])

the problem is this is just resistance

e.g.
A weak ultimate skill user/gift like Tear fends off Dino's skill since she possesses ultimate skill. It was merely a resistance to matter manipulation, deconstruction whatever???, not durability, they are not equal to actual true dragon durability

agree (3|0): Dereck03, DarkDragonMedeus, ActuallySpaceMan42, @CodeCCLL @Neoxxi16, @Fyodol_Empyrean, @Robo432343, @TheOrangeGuy09, @Achmad76c, @Mizuki67
neutral(0|0): @Sebas-S.P-san,
Disagree(0|0): @Tempestdragon6 @Astral_Trinity439

 

[CodeCCLL]

Should be simple

I was going to downgrade this..

 

[Shiraito983]

I was going to downgrade this..

lol, I have free time. you should just focus on the generalization of 2-C for an ultimate skill which shouldn't be in the first place

 

[CodeCCLL]

the problem is this is just resistance

Actually, I was going to include this issue in a major thread that I will share in the coming days, so I completely agree with it.

(There is nothing to discuss, Dino's Ultimate Skill is deconstruction that obviously ignores durability at same time)

you should just focus on the generalization of 2-C for an ultimate skill which shouldn't be in the first place

So many things to discuss, a separate threads needs to be done to solve the issue of tiering and scaling. But first, I'm not sure if I should make a crt talking about some very obvious deficiencies in the profiles.

 

[Neoxxi16]

Agree

 

[Fyodol_Empyrean]

Agree

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

If what OP is saying is true, then I agree.

 

[CodeCCLL]

generalization

Actually, I still think a generalization can be made, because in fact, Ultimate Skill users has the potential to damage True Dragons if they add Ultimate Skill(s) to their attacks.

But anyway, I will try to bring these up for discussion as soon as possible.

 

[Shiraito983]

Actually, I still think a generalization can be made, because in fact, Ultimate Skill users has the potential to damage True Dragons if they add Ultimate Skill(s) to their attacks.

But anyway, I will try to bring these up for discussion as soon as possible.

It better Possibly for weaker users and solid for high-level true demon lords

 

[CodeCCLL]

It better Possibly for weaker users and solid for high-level true demon lords

Basically, if we look at Rimuru, this is exactly the difference between Demon Slime Rimuru and Pre-Ultimate Slime Rimuru. Pre-Ultimate Slime Rimuru is like the potential of Demon Slime Rimuru's Ultimate Skills.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

the problem is this is just resistance

An UItimate skiII user by nature cannot be harmed by anything other then a non UItimate skiII user, that inasmuch of itseIf is sufficient enough to prove that onIy another US user, aka another tier 2, can harm them. This case is both durabiIity AND resistance.

You are aIso ignoring the fact that distegration couIdnt harm true dragons fuIIy due to their Iarge size, not entireIy their durabiIity. In fact, a true dragon is akin to an UItimate existence, and resuItantIy cannot be harmed by non-UItimates as it is unbounded by the Iaws of the worId, whiIe a non UItimate is not. So thats not even a contradiction, and onIy soIidies that UItimate existences are tier 2.

The fact that they have invuInerabiIity on the UItimate skiII page supports my argument

 

[Mizuki67]

lol, I have free time. you should just focus on the generalization of 2-C for an ultimate skill which shouldn't be in the first place

Werent you the one who argued for Invulnerability and acausality 4 . Durability is still there and true dragons have it as well. They still do intact have durability. Only thing needs to be changed is the reasoning

Why are they not 2C. We have proof that they scale to true dragons

Anyways since code has already cleared it up I think possible 2C can work and solid tiering can work on those who only manage to do something against a True Dragon.

If what OP is saying is true, then I agree.

 

[CodeCCLL]

code

I never, ever agree with the current reasoning, not being affected by an attack that ignores durability is just resistance.

However, if we look at the durability point, Ultimate Skill users who are not physically at the True Dragon level would only qualify for True Dragons level durability with Ultimate Skills like Uriel, and would have a possibly rating on comparable Ultimate Skills in term of defense.

 

[Tempestdragon6]

disagree

 

[Shiraito983]

An UItimate skiII user by nature cannot be harmed by anything other then a non UItimate skiII user, that inasmuch of itseIf is sufficient enough to prove that onIy another US user, aka another tier 2, can harm them. This case is both durabiIity AND resistance.

This is a hax regarding acausality and invulnerability, including power nullification, rather than durability. So this provided nothing regarding tier, and again, the current explanation is only resistance, not durability, or there is no cause for the Ultimate skill user to be tier on actual true dragon durability/physical level.

You are aIso ignoring the fact that distegration couIdnt harm true dragons fuIIy due to their Iarge size, not entireIy their durabiIity. In fact, a true dragon is akin to an UItimate existence, and resuItantIy cannot be harmed by non-UItimates as it is unbounded by the Iaws of the worId, whiIe a non UItimate is not. So thats not even a contradiction, and onIy soIidies that UItimate existences are tier 2.

The fact that they have invuInerabiIity on the UItimate skiII page supports my argument

disintegration itself could harm a true dragon. you said it yourself it's because of the large size that's why it did not affect them. It is solid 2-C

 

[Shiraito983]

Werent you the one who argued for Invulnerability and acausality 4 . Durability is still there and true dragons have it as well. They still do intact have durability. Only thing needs to be changed is the reasoning

Why are they not 2C. We have proof that they scale to true dragons

Anyways since code has already cleared it up I think possible 2C can work and solid tiering can work on those who only manage to do something against a True Dragon.

It better Possibly for weaker users and solid for high-level true demon lords

what were discussing was already cleared up.

if the ultimate skill user was able to tank an attack from True Dragons or Primal physically or through the barrier. that should be enough for 2-C but the current justification was bad and just resistance

 

[Sebas-S.P-san]

I will remain neutral for the moment

 

[Mizuki67]

This is a hax regarding acausality and invulnerability, including power nullification, rather than durability. So this provided nothing regarding tier, and again, the current explanation is only resistance, not durability, or there is no cause for the Ultimate skill user to be tier on actual true dragon durability/physical level.

Invulnerability is not only just hax. You can have both durability and invulnerability and again a possibly rating can be put on their profile. There is also the fact of Convenant King Uriel being able to block a Disintegration attack that can damage a True Dragon

I only agree that the justification needs to be changed. I do not agree with removing 2-C durability from Ultimate Skill users it doesn't sit right with me since Rimuru was also able to tank attacks from true dragon before he was reborned as a true dragon himself. I request you to edit the crt or make a new thread regarding this issue so we can come to an agreement

 

[CodeCCLL]

Rimuru was also able to tank attacks from true dragon

So do you believe Demon Slime key Rimuru can tank Velgrynd's attacks? Physically, definitely not. Probably through Uriel.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This is a hax regarding acausality and invulnerability, including power nullification, rather than durability. So this provided nothing regarding tier, and again, the current explanation is only resistance, not durability, or there is no cause for the Ultimate skill user to be tier on actual true dragon durability/physical level.

InvuInerabIity can aIso be counted as durabiIity given enough context, its more then just durability, but that does not mean it cannot be counted as such, and the fact an Ultimate skiII user cannot be harmed by ANY attack unIess from a US hoIder, rather then just HAX, fits that enough context perfectIy.

The fact that both True Dragons and UItimate skiII users can onIy be harmed by other UItimates is enough to say that they scaIe to such cases in durabiIity, since an UItimate attack itseIf has 2-C AP. Im pretty sure the unique case of True dragons surviving disintegration due to durabiIity, is referring to their Iarge size instead.

disintegration itself could harm a true dragon. you said it yourself it's because of the large size that's why it did not affect them. It is solid 2-C

Refer to my Iine above in this one for that.

1. A True Dragon can only be harmed by another UItimate skiII user, because they are an UItimate existence even without having an UItimate skiII. They were completely unaffected by even Gravity Collapse, which goes to show just how far their Ultimate existence appIied to. : 2-C Dura for them
2. UItimate skiII users can harm them : 2-C AP
3. UItimate SkiII users can onIy be harmed by another UItimate, said UItimate wouId have 2-C AP : Their InvuInerabiIity goes as far as to giving them enough Dura to not be harmed by a Non 2-C attack.

 

[CodeCCLL]

UItimate SkiII users can onIy be harmed by another UItimate, said UItimate wouId have 2-C AP : Their InvuInerabiIity goes as far as to giving them enough Dura to not be harmed by a Non 2-C attack.

This argument is nothing more than a leap in logic; invulnerability does not give them any durability in this context.

Ultimate Skill users' invulnerability obviously does not extend to higher physical AP.


Demon Slime Rimuru was clearly taking physical damage from Hinata's straight attacks, and it was implied that he could take even more damage.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

It was also stated that the newly awakened Demon Slime Rimuru is far inferior (they can't even be compared) to Diablo, despite his Ultimate Skills.

These are the first examples that come to my mind, I'm sure there are more.

 

[Mizuki67]

This argument is nothing more than a leap in logic; invulnerability does not give them any durability in this context.

Ultimate Skill users' invulnerability obviously does not extend to higher physical AP.


Demon Slime Rimuru was clearly taking physical damage from Hinata's straight attacks, and it was implied that he could take even more damage.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

It was also stated that the newly awakened Demon Slime Rimuru is far inferior (they can't even be compared) to Diablo, despite his Ultimate Skills.

These are the first examples that come to my mind, I'm sure there are more.

Now I got the big picture. It does seem to be the problem.

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Agree

 

[Mizuki67]

So do you believe Demon Slime key Rimuru can tank Velgrynd's attacks? Physically, definitely not. Probably through Uriel.

I will agree with what you suggest then but this can only be applied for Rimuru

 

[CodeCCLL]

Diablo physically tanking Nihilistic Banish but Hinata probably being able to one-shot Rimuru with Melt Slash and Rimuru only being able to block Trinity Disintegration with Uriel.

Semi-serious base Milim Nava's punch can damage Demon Lord Rimuru, Veldora tanks this punch without any problems even when off-guard (off guard attacks reduce one's durability to an unknown degree).


Feats is talking here.

 

[CodeCCLL]

but this can only be applied for Rimuru

Then you may continue to think that Beretta has Velgrynd level durability, I have nothing to tell you.

 

[Mizuki67]

Then you may continue to think that Beretta has Velgrynd level durability, I have nothing to tell you.

I did not think that ultimate skill users should have 2-C durability. I only said it is only for Rimuru because he has Ultimate Skill Uriel. I agree with you. So there is no problem

 

[CodeCCLL]

I did not think that ultimate skill users should have 2-C durability. I only said it is only for Rimuru because he has Ultimate Skill Uriel. I agree with you. So there is no problem

Ok then I misunderstood.

 

[Shiraito983]

InvuInerabIity can aIso be counted as durabiIity given enough context, its more then just durability, but that does not mean it cannot be counted as such, and the fact an Ultimate skiII user cannot be harmed by ANY attack unIess from a US hoIder, rather then just HAX, fits that enough context perfectIy.

The fact that both True Dragons and UItimate skiII users can onIy be harmed by other UItimates is enough to say that they scaIe to such cases in durabiIity, since an UItimate attack itseIf has 2-C AP. Im pretty sure the unique case of True dragons surviving disintegration due to durabiIity, is referring to their Iarge size instead.

Refer to my Iine above in this one for that.

1. A True Dragon can only be harmed by another UItimate skiII user, because they are an UItimate existence even without having an UItimate skiII. They were completely unaffected by even Gravity Collapse, which goes to show just how far their Ultimate existence appIied to. : 2-C Dura for them
2. UItimate skiII users can harm them : 2-C AP
3. UItimate SkiII users can onIy be harmed by another UItimate, said UItimate wouId have 2-C AP : Their InvuInerabiIity goes as far as to giving them enough Dura to not be harmed by a Non 2-C attack.

This argument is nothing more than a leap in logic; invulnerability does not give them any durability in this context.

Ultimate Skill users' invulnerability obviously does not extend to higher physical AP.


Demon Slime Rimuru was clearly taking physical damage from Hinata's straight attacks, and it was implied that he could take even more damage.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

It was also stated that the newly awakened Demon Slime Rimuru is far inferior (they can't even be compared) to Diablo, despite his Ultimate Skills.

These are the first examples that come to my mind, I'm sure there are more.

Then you may continue to think that Beretta has Velgrynd level durability, I have nothing to tell you.

this, Also, they are potentially can harm a true and do not directly scale to their AP,

 

[Achmad76c]

Agree

 

[Mizuki67]

this, Also, they are potentially can harm a true and do not directly scale to their AP,

We have already made it clear that not all ultimate skill are just hax, they could sometimes fuse their strength with ultimate power and damage true dragons

 

[Shiraito983]

this is where we disagree
We have already made it clear that not all ultimate skill are just hax, they could sometimes fuse their strength with ultimate power and damage true dragons

does not mean they are equal to true dragon AP. otherwise, can they bust labyrinth to 50 floors?

 

[Mizuki67]

does not mean they are equal to true dragon AP. otherwise, can they bust Labyrint to 50 floors?

I did not say that they scale to 50 floors i am just trying explain that ultimate skill isn't hax in some cases. People tend to misunderstand alot and call our scaling wank

 

[Mizuki67]

anyways you can put me on agree with this thread.

 

[Robo432343]

same

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

This argument is nothing more than a leap in logic; invulnerability does not give them any durability in this context.

Ultimate Skill users' invulnerability obviously does not extend to higher physical AP.


Demon Slime Rimuru was clearly taking physical damage from Hinata's straight attacks, and it was implied that he could take even more damage.

Gyazo

gyazo.com

It was also stated that the newly awakened Demon Slime Rimuru is far inferior (they can't even be compared) to Diablo, despite his Ultimate Skills.

These are the first examples that come to my mind, I'm sure there are more.

thats something unique to Hinata's rapier....

 

[CodeCCLL]

does not mean they are equal to true dragon AP. otherwise, can they bust labyrinth to 50 floors?

I did not say that they scale to 50 floors i am just trying explain that ultimate skill

True Dragons' AP must equal their durability because they tank their own energy output and tank each other's attacks. But range is a different matter.

(But we still need to talk about this scaling thing, there are some issues, 2-C upgrade was very rushed)

thats something unique to Hinata's rapier....

No such thing is said, this is just an unfounded generalization by the writer of the text, Hinata could never surpass Ultimate Skills like Uriel and also that wasn't the only example I gave.

Also, wasn't Hinata one of the person who came up with the idea of using ultimate power (disintegration, melt slash) to harm Veldora? Do I remember wrong?

 

[Mizuki67]

True Dragons' AP must equal their durability because they tank their own energy output and tank each other's attacks. But range is a different matter.

(But we still need to talk about this scaling thing, there are some issues, 2-C upgrade was very rushed)

it is fine the way it is. We still have to revise our cosmology so i highly suggest we leave the problem aside for now.
Astral is now focusing on things from the WN and he plan to make a big revision for the LN in the future

 

[Dereck03]

I'm fine with OP's conclusions.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

No such thing is said

Not really, either you missed these parts or intentionally did not add them :

• She could break Rimuru;s barrier onIy because of her sword, as it has a form of law manipulation.
• Her armor also enhanced her to Saint level, aka, becoming a full spiritual lifeform

To conclude, she had a special armor + weapon that made her a spiritual lifeform and granted her a form of law manipulation that can cut Rimuru;s Barrier, who is a US holder.

It has nothing to do with it being enough to harm Rimuru and surpassing his durabiIity with its AP, without counting urieI of course, the onIy reason it couId harm him to begin with was Iaw manipuIation

Thus, this is an invaIid exampIe of showing that Non-UItimate skiII users can be harmed by physicaI non 2-C attacks from a non-UItimate