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Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Discussion Thread 8
- Thread starter Celestial_Pegasus
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Interesting that you bring the Turn Null stuff up, because I was just about to bring that up myself.
He doesn't store 10.000+ Multiverses there, but he does store the type of energy required to make those Multiverses. That energy SHOULD be 4D in itself though considering it existed before the world in the "void". Actually Veldanava should himself be a 4D existence since he seems to originate from the "void" of 4D space, though I am not sure if that would extend to all True Dragons or not. But at least Rimuru should scale considering he supposedly surpassed Veldanava.
Either way, can't wait for vol. 7 next week.
He doesn't store 10.000+ Multiverses there, but he does store the type of energy required to make those Multiverses. That energy SHOULD be 4D in itself though considering it existed before the world in the "void". Actually Veldanava should himself be a 4D existence since he seems to originate from the "void" of 4D space, though I am not sure if that would extend to all True Dragons or not. But at least Rimuru should scale considering he supposedly surpassed Veldanava.
Either way, can't wait for vol. 7 next week.
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There are also other things to consider though, like whether or not Veldanava got "downgraded to 3D" when he lost Turn Null or when he lost most of his power due to Voice of the World/making Lucia pregnant with Milim. Or maybe he didn't considering he still managed to get reincarnated into Velgaia in the end.
Perhaps it's a True Dragon trait and the reason they can reincarnate endlessly (because they only get killed in 3D space so they can regenerate due to still existing in 4D). However it seems by default the True Dragons' minds/wills aren't able to attach themselves to this 4D-self, only their concepts/metaphysical existences do, hence their personality changes and they forget much of their memories of their "previous lives" whenever they die.
This next part is just speculatio (i.e. this part no longer matters for any profiles), but some people theorized that the 4 True Dragons are embodiments of some cosmological concepts even higher ranked than the "Great Spirits".
Veldanava stands for Creation and Order.
Velzard stands for Low Energy State (and perhaps the Absolute Zero phenomenom).
Velgrynd stands for High Energy State (and perhaps some sort of "Infinite Energy" phenomenom or the one neccessary to create a big bang (could explain why Veldanava lost Turn Null and why Rimuru gained it after absorbing her)).
Veldora stands for Destruction and Chaos.
Perhaps it's a True Dragon trait and the reason they can reincarnate endlessly (because they only get killed in 3D space so they can regenerate due to still existing in 4D). However it seems by default the True Dragons' minds/wills aren't able to attach themselves to this 4D-self, only their concepts/metaphysical existences do, hence their personality changes and they forget much of their memories of their "previous lives" whenever they die.
This next part is just speculatio (i.e. this part no longer matters for any profiles), but some people theorized that the 4 True Dragons are embodiments of some cosmological concepts even higher ranked than the "Great Spirits".
Veldanava stands for Creation and Order.
Velzard stands for Low Energy State (and perhaps the Absolute Zero phenomenom).
Velgrynd stands for High Energy State (and perhaps some sort of "Infinite Energy" phenomenom or the one neccessary to create a big bang (could explain why Veldanava lost Turn Null and why Rimuru gained it after absorbing her)).
Veldora stands for Destruction and Chaos.
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By the way, does Gii Crimso actually have Wrathful King Satan? Because IIRC he was only mentioned to have the Mana Breeder Reactor aspect of it, escpacially since only one individual can have a specific Ultimate Skill at a time, but the individual aspects and/or sub-skills can be possessed by Multiple Individuals. IIRC Wrathful King Satan can increase the output of the Mana Breeder Reactor (over the 100%), which is what made Milim so powerful in the first place. So I think that description might have to be revised. Don't have time to check it out right now though.
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Well damn, wouldn't that make Infinite Prison (and possibly anything with "imaginary" in it) 4D too? I mean in the first place the whole timeloop is already covering a 4D range by itself, so it wouldn't be that strange, escpacially considering Chloe already got time-related abilities.
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- Thread starter
- #255
Imaginary space is not 2-A, it stores energy which can create universes but it's just energy not physical space-time continuum's.
And existing in nothingness like Veldanava did isn't 4-D, or else every creator god would be.
Obviously Veldanava and Rimuru have 4-D power since they can create universes however they themselves haven't been shown to be 4-D.
I mean the fact that they can only create universes with turn null and loses said ability when they use it too much sort of disproves them being 4-D.
And existing in nothingness like Veldanava did isn't 4-D, or else every creator god would be.
Obviously Veldanava and Rimuru have 4-D power since they can create universes however they themselves haven't been shown to be 4-D.
I mean the fact that they can only create universes with turn null and loses said ability when they use it too much sort of disproves them being 4-D.
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I love that myulan design!
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I don't understand your reasoning here. You mean to say that the Null Energy, which has been proven to exist outside of time (since it preceeds the concept of time itself, just like Veldanava himself), is 3D energy that can be converted into a 4D space-time continuum and can create the concept of time itself? How does that make sense? The energy HAS TO BE 4D in potency and therefore the space containing it likewise has to be 4D since a 3D space wouldn't be able to store anything that's 4D, since Energy obviously doesn't create avatars or anything like that.Celestial Pegasus said:
As for why Veldanava lost Turn Null: For the same reason Great Sage had to mix in Deviant/Degenerate to evolve to Wisdom King Raphael: Lack of energy. The multiverse that Veldanava created was simply beyond Veldanava's capacities, be it on purpose or by accident (or due to some unknown "minimum threshold" for Multiverse creation). He couldn't just wait to produce more of it because his "storage tank", which unlike Rimuru's was finite, was already filled up completely, so waiting any longer would not have helped. In the end Veldanava needed to convert Turn Null itself into more Null Energy to make up for the missing Null Energy for the creation process.
I mean that's the only logically sound explanation for why Rimuru having infinite capacity for Null Energy is the deciding factor for not losing Turn Null after one use.
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Same. It's like an "Evil" or "Demonic" Dryad sort of thing. Actually reminds me of Zero from Drakengaard 3.PairusDragonoid said:
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I mean he already sold his soul to a "Viscous Organism" whose metaphysical "insides" are an Abyss filled with corpses of existences that can destroy towns or even mountains in a single attack, as well as one of the most famous Spirits and even a mythological Dragon who is one of the strongest beings in existence (though sealed at the time) both still being alive and well. Furthermore this Viscous Organism's alluring charisma is so strong that even Daemons are trampling over each other for the sole purpose of being the first one to serve that being.Sheska444 said:
A little bit of a creepy third eye from Myulan is nothing in comparison.
Or to use one of the most popular phrases from any narou isekai WN/LN:
"You'll lose if you mind it!"
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@Neo Predating time isn't proof of being 4-D as far as i am aware, I don't deny it has 4-D capabilities since it can be used to create 4-D things though.
Rimuru has a storage capacity so even if he recreates the world like Veldanava and he has do it 10,000x before not being able to do so again for a while, it's still a weakness. He can't just use Turn Null to whatever extent he wants without facing repercussions.
In short imo they have 4-D power but aren't 4-D, predating time alone isn't enough cause as i said before every creator god predates time and can create time yet as far as i am aware the wiki doesn't treat every creator god as 4-D.
Rimuru has a storage capacity so even if he recreates the world like Veldanava and he has do it 10,000x before not being able to do so again for a while, it's still a weakness. He can't just use Turn Null to whatever extent he wants without facing repercussions.
In short imo they have 4-D power but aren't 4-D, predating time alone isn't enough cause as i said before every creator god predates time and can create time yet as far as i am aware the wiki doesn't treat every creator god as 4-D.
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Elizhaa, why was Damage Transferal added to Rimuru's PTD key?
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But by that, all the abilities that were potential in his ADL key would be full abilities in his PTD key.
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He already does, and yes PTD Rimuru has all his subordiantes abilities not just as potential abilities.
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But they aren't listed, except for Damage Transferal. He never actually used Replicator, he just had it via Food Chain.
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@Celestial Pegasus, there is more supporting evidences in the Tensei Shitara Slime Datta Ken Disintegration Revision Redux CRT so do you think?
There is also this CRT: TSSDK Hacking Manipulation so what you think as well?
There is also this CRT: TSSDK Hacking Manipulation so what you think as well?
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@Milly Where do you think all these abilities came from in PTD:
"Subjective Reality, Damage Transferal, Fate Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Existence Erasure, Death Manipulation, Reality Warping, Sleep Manipulation, Disease Manipulation, Necromancy, Attack Reflection, Regenerationn (Mid-Godly), Causality Manipulation, Resistance Negation, Space-Time Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Curse Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Black Hole Creation"
So no idea what you're talking about, the abilities are already listed.
"Subjective Reality, Damage Transferal, Fate Manipulation, Probability Manipulation, Life Manipulation, Existence Erasure, Death Manipulation, Reality Warping, Sleep Manipulation, Disease Manipulation, Necromancy, Attack Reflection, Regenerationn (Mid-Godly), Causality Manipulation, Resistance Negation, Space-Time Manipulation, Matter Manipulation, Curse Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, Void Manipulation, Black Hole Creation"
So no idea what you're talking about, the abilities are already listed.
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I need to start sleeping earlier. Didn't even see those. Maybe because ADL is a far bigger key.
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@CP actually there is evidence that Rimuru's stomach is a seperate Space-Time Continuum.
Just think about it. The Null Energy gathers based on Rimuru's own experienced reality. It's independent from the flow of time of Veldanava's world. Regardless of how Rimuru moves around through time in Veldanava's world, the Null Energy still gathers based only on Rimuru's own reality itself. If it wasn't then he'd have lost all the energy he accumulated when he timeleaped to the past to finish off Yuuki.
Just think about it. The Null Energy gathers based on Rimuru's own experienced reality. It's independent from the flow of time of Veldanava's world. Regardless of how Rimuru moves around through time in Veldanava's world, the Null Energy still gathers based only on Rimuru's own reality itself. If it wasn't then he'd have lost all the energy he accumulated when he timeleaped to the past to finish off Yuuki.
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I don't really see that as anything to do with space-time continuum or whatever, but Rimuru's acausality, he operates on a different and irregular system of cause and effect.
Regardless this discussion won't really change anything important and i have other stuff to do, these slime discussions take up too much of my time, i have other verses to work on.
Regardless this discussion won't really change anything important and i have other stuff to do, these slime discussions take up too much of my time, i have other verses to work on.
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Alright, see you later then/
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But the Null Energy gets produced constantly at an unknown rate. How exactly would this work with only Acausality? Acausality is something that covers things like decisions and relation of events or relations of people, but does not cover for something like endlessly repeating sequences. That requires a "timeflow" instead. In other words it's time-related, not causality-related. It just makes no sense whatsoever unless the imaginary nuclear dimension got it's own space-time continuum at the very least and I'd even argue that the imaginary nuclear dimension got enough capacity to house the energy equivalent of an infinite amount of 4D universes.
Why this is important? Because it would cause range problems for any enemies looking for the Rimuru's self within the imaginary nuclear dimension.
Why this is important? Because it would cause range problems for any enemies looking for the Rimuru's self within the imaginary nuclear dimension.
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@NeoSuperior, Acausality covered especially Type 4 and 5. In the verse case, Type 4 Acausality mean the follows a different systems of cause and effect so what may looks impossible in a causal system is possible for the characters.
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
I am neutral about Turn Null having it own Space-Time continuumm for now.
Type 4: Irregular Causality: Characters with this type of Acausality operate on a different and irregular system of cause and effect than regular causality. This grants them resistance to abilities such as Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, and Precognition, among others.
I am neutral about Turn Null having it own Space-Time continuumm for now.
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Yuuki's BFR sends the person and any clones wherever they exist within the space-time continuum to the end of space-time, Rimuru and all his clones in imaginary space got BFR'ed, meaning it exists within the space-time continuum.
@Neo Rimuru got his acausality due to being able to escape a timeloop, an endlessly repeating sequence, so...
My point with the acausality is that if Rimuru time travels back he should have lost his power but didn't cause he is unaffected by regular cause and effect which would dictate that he losses his turn null.
As i already said, i disagree with equating energy require to create universes to actual physical space-time continuum's.
@Neo Rimuru got his acausality due to being able to escape a timeloop, an endlessly repeating sequence, so...
My point with the acausality is that if Rimuru time travels back he should have lost his power but didn't cause he is unaffected by regular cause and effect which would dictate that he losses his turn null.
As i already said, i disagree with equating energy require to create universes to actual physical space-time continuum's.
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Rimuru's other self in imaginary space got pulled along because his soul corridor connection to his other self was not cut. Rimuru even admonished Ciel for not paying attention to that, though Ciel might or might not have done it all on purpose based on her previous behaviour.
In addition it was actually a composite magic that was made from the combined magic of Yuuki and Rimuru by tricking Rimuru into activating the magic itself. I am not sure if I got it right, but Rimuru basically used the "reverse" primitive magic of whatever Yuuki was doing, but Yuuki was actually casting another timestop within timestop, having no effect, but Rimuru did the opposite of that (i.e. accelerating time instead of slowing it), which amplified Yuuki's spell which now had Rimuru's own energy in it (which is likely the primordial energy from Turn Null itself), so Rimuru, in a way, self-BFRed and timeflow of the imaginary space might therefore have been affected by it too even without the soul corridor.
The issue about the timeloop was what decisions people made that led to either following the same flow of events as previously, or following a different one. It's basically like a train switching tracks. But for the energy generation it's more about having or not having any tracks at all to keep constant production up in the first place. I mean how could Veldanava have produced any primordial energy for his one use of Turn Null when there was supposedly no time to begin with?
Answer: He couldn't. Instead Turn Null must have had its own timeflow relative to the user's subjective reality because else it'd be a fatally flawed skill that doesn't work self-contained and would have to rely on something that doesn't even exist (time), which sounds like non-sense.
In addition it was actually a composite magic that was made from the combined magic of Yuuki and Rimuru by tricking Rimuru into activating the magic itself. I am not sure if I got it right, but Rimuru basically used the "reverse" primitive magic of whatever Yuuki was doing, but Yuuki was actually casting another timestop within timestop, having no effect, but Rimuru did the opposite of that (i.e. accelerating time instead of slowing it), which amplified Yuuki's spell which now had Rimuru's own energy in it (which is likely the primordial energy from Turn Null itself), so Rimuru, in a way, self-BFRed and timeflow of the imaginary space might therefore have been affected by it too even without the soul corridor.
The issue about the timeloop was what decisions people made that led to either following the same flow of events as previously, or following a different one. It's basically like a train switching tracks. But for the energy generation it's more about having or not having any tracks at all to keep constant production up in the first place. I mean how could Veldanava have produced any primordial energy for his one use of Turn Null when there was supposedly no time to begin with?
Answer: He couldn't. Instead Turn Null must have had its own timeflow relative to the user's subjective reality because else it'd be a fatally flawed skill that doesn't work self-contained and would have to rely on something that doesn't even exist (time), which sounds like non-sense.
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