TD2 - Hoyo

[BronyaIsTheBest]

...

 

[Vietthai96]

Ah yes the weapon description again, i still remember Might of An Utu have infinite destruction power in the description or something, yet nothing proved it at all, actually have many anti-feat, at this point weaqon description is just flowery language

And about HSR scan, on the surface yeah, look like duality, but no, the scan context is vague, is these concepts truly governs reality, or they are just, like nomalism/idealism that people like to talk about life and existence in a metaphorical, flowery way; the context lean heavily toward the later following the statement:

Mortal can only pursue the beauty of Equilibrium in a secular world by the elimination of radical extremes

Practically i don't see any duality that govern reality here at all

Anyway i disagree with this, even nonduality is wrong let alone transduality, as there are nothing duality about this. There is no connection between the two scans, the first one talking about Yin and Yang as cosmic duality which at least can be accepted at face value and even then is only a singular duality which is nondual/transdual type 1; the second scan have no connection to the Yin and Yang in that is mention in the first at all as it talking about a completely unrelated thing, you tried to make a connection between the two to extrapolated them into duality type 2

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

Ah yes the weapon description again, i still remember Might of An Utu have infinite destruction power in the description or something, yet nothing proved it at all, actually have many anti-feat, at this point weaqon description is just flowery language

And about HSR scan, on the surface yeah, look like duality, but no, the scan context is vague, is these concepts truly governs reality, or they are just, like nomalism/idealism that people like to talk about life and existence in a metaphorical, flowery way; the context lean heavily toward the later following the statement:

Practically i don't see any duality that govern reality here at all

Anyway i disagree with this, even nonduality is wrong let alone transduality, as there are nothing duality about this. There is no connection between the two scans, the first one talking about Yin and Yang as cosmic duality which at least can be accepted at face value and even then is only a singular duality which is nondual/transdual type 1; the second scan have no connection to the Yin and Yang in that is mention in the first at all as it talking about a completely unrelated thing, you tried to make a connection between the two to extrapolated them into duality type 2

The description of the cosmic duality is just only one thing, didn't you forget about Li Sushang's statement?. About Honkai Star Rail, there is more statement about this.You can check it
...HooH the Equilibrium. THEY are one of the oldest Aeons. The reason behind THEIR division into two halves remains beyond my comprehension. THEY separate concepts, splitting all beings into an interchangeable duality, thus fusing all "positives" and "negatives" in the universe into an equilibrial whole. THEY are always so symmetrical and so equal. If we were to rank those most sublime beings, only the Voracity and the Permanence can stand toe-to-toe with the Equilibrium's antiquity... Oh, and also the Order. After Ena disappeared, the Equilibrium's duties have only grown greater. Then, how would HooH perceive Nanook?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Anyway i disagree with this, even nonduality is wrong let alone transduality

They're the same thing but eh...

Anyways, type 1 seems solid but idk about type 2.

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

They're the same thing but eh...

Anyways, type 1 seems solid but idk about type 2.

...HooH the Equilibrium. THEY are one of the oldest Aeons. The reason behind THEIR division into two halves remains beyond my comprehension. THEY separate concepts, splitting all beings into an interchangeable duality, thus fusing all "positives" and "negatives" in the universe into an equilibrial whole. THEY are always so symmetrical and so equal. If we were to rank those most sublime beings, only the Voracity and the Permanence can stand toe-to-toe with the Equilibrium's antiquity... Oh, and also the Order. After Ena disappeared, the Equilibrium's duties have only grown greater. Then, how would HooH perceive Nanook?

You can check it

At the beginning of life, the weight of Existence was placed upon the scales, and the burgeoning of life energy instantly tilted the balance of the universe. But the patience of Equilibrium is unfathomable — given enough time, Existence and Nothingness are destined to attain perfect balance once more, and the balance of universal precepts must be respected.

The Arbitrators admired HooH's ideas, praising THEIR eternal focus and patience. But universal laws have no control over time and space, and mortals can only pursue the beauty of Equilibrium in a secular world by the elimination of radical extremes: beauty and ugliness, joy and sorrow, good and evil, love and hatred — countless opposing concepts were created and interpreted to satisfy the Arbitrators' obsession with a zero-sum universe.

@Vietthai96 (Fully context of dualism in HSR)

 

[Vietthai96]

I will look into this later, cause working

 

[Voidnether]

I hope that I will be successful in this CRT

Transduality type 2 - Hoyoverse

vsbattles.fandom.com

Agree:
Disagree:
Neutral:

Yeah, I saw this coming but there's no immunity benefit so far, so if I may ask what immunity do they get or it's just none at all..?

Since there is no general rules to the behaviour of something which doesn't abide the rules of logic, the effects of this ability can vary from fiction to fiction. Frequently, this power can render users immune to effects intermediated through the dualities in question, but the fiction has to specify that this is what a character's nonduality does in order for us to assume immunity.

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

Tôi sẽ xem xét vấn đề này sau, vì đang làm việc

For mortals, it is not mentioned about some random human in this verse, it mentioned about "The Arbitrators".

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

Vâng, tôi đã biết trước điều này sẽ xảy ra nhưng cho đến nay vẫn chưa có lợi ích miễn dịch nào, vì vậy nếu tôi có thể hỏi họ sẽ nhận được quyền miễn dịch nào hoặc hoàn toàn không có gì cả..?

It is Nonduality, This CRT is about Transduality

 

[Voidnether]

It is Nonduality, This CRT is about Transduality

Same thing, what DontTalkDT meant is not just exclusively to Nonduality

Nonduality doesn't make you immune to things until stated

The nonduality page says that being nondual regarding something makes you immune to attacks using that thing. My simple proposal: Remove that, because in general that is simply not true. Instead make it something a verse can have the ability do if it clarifies the ability does that. I first...

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[BronyaIsTheBest]

Same thing, what DontTalkDT meant is not just exclusively to Nonduality

Nonduality doesn't make you immune to things until stated

The nonduality page says that being nondual regarding something makes you immune to attacks using that thing. My simple proposal: Remove that, because in general that is simply not true. Instead make it something a verse can have the ability do if it clarifies the ability does that. I first...

vsbattles.com

?? DonTalkDT just mentioned about nonduality, the title of the post also talks about "nonduality".

 

[Voidnether]

?? DonTalkDT just mentioned about nonduality, the title of the post also talks about "nonduality".

Yeah well do you see the tag of the thread?

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

@Voidnether
Being tied to the dualities is usually not really the same as being the dualities itself. If the verse specifies that it is, then that could work, though.

Nonduality doesn't include transcendence of the duality. There is no transcending life and death in nonduality. That's transduality. Transduality gets the automatic immunity.

For nonduality I don't see how that explanation would in any form be simpler. Just because you don't obey the rule of, say, being either fire or not fire does in no simple way result in you being immune to fire.
As said in the OP, that is a weird postulation of the interaction of a power with something nondual definitely resulting in the dual state of "non-affected". If it ends up in a dual state then it could also be the "affected"-state. Or the interaction with something non-dual could end up in yet another non-dual state which could impact the character in various ways.

Ultimately being simple is also just no reason to hand out an ability. We do need to actually know what the characters can do. We can't just invent extra abilities because it seems easy.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Nếu bạn nói về "người phàm". Dù sao đi nữa, " người phàm " trong ngữ cảnh này nói về "Trọng tài", không có nghĩa là một con người ngẫu nhiên nào đó trong câu này. Họ ngưỡng mộ ý tưởng của HooH về sự cân bằng của vũ trụ
Sự tồn tại và hư vô một lần nữa được định sẵn để đạt được sự cân bằng hoàn hảo, và sự cân bằng của các giới luật phổ quát phải được tôn trọng.

Speak English please, thanks.

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

Speak English please, thanks.

hmm, i remembered that i use English for it :vv (I edited it)

 

[Voidnether]

@Voidnether
Being tied to the dualities is usually not really the same as being the dualities itself. If the verse specifies that it is, then that could work, though.

Nonduality doesn't include transcendence of the duality. There is no transcending life and death in nonduality. That's transduality. Transduality gets the automatic immunity.

For nonduality I don't see how that explanation would in any form be simpler. Just because you don't obey the rule of, say, being either fire or not fire does in no simple way result in you being immune to fire.
As said in the OP, that is a weird postulation of the interaction of a power with something nondual definitely resulting in the dual state of "non-affected". If it ends up in a dual state then it could also be the "affected"-state. Or the interaction with something non-dual could end up in yet another non-dual state which could impact the character in various ways.

Ultimately being simple is also just no reason to hand out an ability. We do need to actually know what the characters can do. We can't just invent extra abilities because it seems easy.

Interesting, well for now I guess put me on Agree for TD1 with Immunity to Law Manipulation related to Yin-Yang. I don't really see any justifications for TD2 except well if you transcend Imaginary Tree in which the HooH resides.

 

[Vietthai96]

Before i finish my work and look into this, transduality mean you need to be qualitatively superior to the duality in question, just being stated to be above this, transcended that isn't mean anything

 

[Voidnether]

Before i finish my work and look into this, transduality mean you need to be qualitatively superior to the duality in question, just being stated to be above this, transcended that isn't mean anything

Yeah, the qualitatively superior here is always vague. I got an argument that those who "transcend" Imaginary Tree in itself gets Transduality Type 2, even though there are numerous arguments about some characters in HI3 transcending it, well they're not "actually" transcending it and that's where the problem lies on.

The only argument we got so far here is Otto being able to transcend "reality" in which we are unsure if this includes Laws of the Imaginary too and Kiana who upscales above Otto.

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

Yeah, the qualitatively superior here is always vague. I got an argument that those who "transcend" Imaginary Tree in itself gets Transduality Type 2, even though there are numerous arguments about some characters in HI3 transcending it, well they're not "actually" transcending it and that's where the problem lies on.

The only argument we got so far here is Otto being able to transcend "reality" in which we are unsure if this includes Laws of the Imaginary too and Kiana who upscales above Otto.

For sure, the concept of dualism is existed in the reality . The dualism of the reality is just created by "The Arbitrators", who is those who follow HooH's Path.

 

[Vietthai96]

i blame these Honkai writers

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

@Voidnether So, what about upgrade Transduality type 2 for just IMG Tree ? It is the essence of existence(both HooH ofc)
Imaginary Tree: The ubiquitous essence of existence, a cosmic structure that gives birth to many worlds.

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

@GarrixianXD could you lock it temporally? (
I will ask you to reopen it in the near future)

 

[Vietthai96]

@GarrixianXD could you lock it temporally? (
I will ask you to reopen it in the near future)

You need to ask via All Purpose Request thread, Garri is content mod so he can't lock thread, only thread mod and admin and up can lock thread

 

[BronyaIsTheBest]

@Vietthai96 He is also Administrator?

 

[Vietthai96]

@Vietthai96 He is also Administrator?

He is admin on joke battles site, not vsbw site so he can't lock this thread, which belong to vsbw site

 

[Voidnether]

@Voidnether So, what about upgrade Transduality type 2 for just IMG Tree ? It is the essence of existence(both HooH ofc)
Imaginary Tree: The ubiquitous essence of existence, a cosmic structure that gives birth to many worlds.

Imaginary Tree is still Nonduality Type 2, it doesn't transcend HooH in any way. That's why I said if there's someone who transcends Imaginary Tree completely to the point they can't enter them it would be Transduality Type 2

Anyways I don't know where Imaginary Tree & Sea of Quanta lies in, but they're for sure dualities.

 

[Voidnether]

Honestly, we should do a revision on the Transduality page and what do they mean by "Qualitative Superiority" because as I know so far. Transduality would be limited to 1-A characters and up based on the newest tiering system.

This is a problem because those who has Transduality would be 1-A and up, those who has Nonduality needs to have their "Immunity" stated in which no verse does this as far as I know instead of automatizing it like Transduality, so yeah..

 

[Grabbing_dragon]

Honestly, we should do a revision on the Transduality

Utima gon do that

Revision about Duality

So basically we accept something as duality if those nature is like logical duality, or A and not A nature. We also accept something as duality if it have it negation or absence of that The problem is, being negation of something are literally just being nonexistence, it not substance to begin...

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