Talulah vs Charizard

[Dragopentling]

Purebred dragon girl

vs

"Not a dragon"

Speed equalized. Fight takes place in Chernobog. Charizard is allowed to Mega Evolve or Gigantamax.

(It's worth a shot, I guess?)

 

[Arkansalter2]

@Antvasima
Coulld use some help here to get more attention

Don't ping ant for that. The ping won't go through anyways.

You can just bump normally every 8-12 hours.

 

[Dragopentling]

Don't ping ant for that. The ping won't go through anyways.

You can just bump normally every 8-12 hours.

ahhhh ok, my bad

 

[Dragopentling]

Bump

 

[Dragopentling]

ping

 

[Dragopentling]

Ping

 

[Muteki616]

At the start, this could be a major stomp in Talu's favor, but with superior stat amps and mobility
Charizard will eventually edge her out and claim victory.
What does Talu start with?

 

[Dragopentling]

At the start, this could be a major stomp in Talu's favor, but with superior stat amps and mobility
Charizard will eventually edge her out and claim victory.
What does Talu start with?

From what I know, she'd usually start out with her fire Arts rightaway.

 

[Muteki616]

So her attacks should get halved via Charizard's fire resistance, and he should edge her out in longevity with his stat amps and ability to further reduce her stats.

 

[Dragopentling]

So her attacks should get halved via Charizard's fire resistance, and he should edge her out in longevity with his stat amps and ability to further reduce her stats.

Talu has Stats Amps, too. Her 2nd key has Self-Healing. She also has Resistance to Fire.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Do we still scale Third Evolution Pokémon to Machamp's skill level? That's a pretty nutty level of martial arts skill they can handle if so.

 

[Dragopentling]

Do we still scale Third Evolution Pokémon to Machamp's skill level? That's a pretty nutty level of martial arts skill they can handle if so.

I personally am not too sure. Being on par power-wise doesn't necessarily mean skill-wise as well, based on just general observation.

 

[Muteki616]

Talu has Stats Amps, too. Her 2nd key has Self-Healing. She also has Resistance to Fire.

Charizard has superior stat amps and various other methods of attack that aren't fire-based. (i.e. Dragon type)
He can also reduce her stats with moves like Growl or Tail Whip.

 

[Dragopentling]

Charizard has superior stat amps and various other methods of attack that aren't fire-based. (i.e. Dragon type)
He can also reduce her stats with moves like Growl or Tail Whip.

Is Charizard under the command of a Trainer? How often would he use stat reduction moves?

 

[Muteki616]

Is Charizard under the command of a Trainer? How often would he use stat reduction moves?

This would be a wild Charizard with all learnable moves, max IVs, and Gifted Battle Intelligence.
It doesn't matter how often they use it because it's different per individual Pokémon.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

So her attacks should get halved via Charizard's fire resistance, and he should edge her out in longevity with his stat amps and ability to further reduce her stats.

Arts is dura neg, so halving her AP won't do anything here. Defense boosting moves Charizard uses won't do anything either

This is a stomp. Arts page has power null so Talulah just cancels every attack Charizard does and instantly incinerates him out of existence because its dura neg. It was in my old Sasuke vs Talulah matchup that Arts users have a barrier so going CQC is impossible.

 

[Dragopentling]

Arts is dura neg, so halving her AP won't do anything here. Defense boosting moves Charizard uses won't do anything either

This is a stomp. Arts page has power null so Talulah just cancels every attack Charizard does and instantly incinerates him out of existence because its dura neg. It was in my old Sasuke vs Talulah matchup that Arts users have a barrier so going CQC is impossible.

Completely forgot about the Dura neg in the Ori Arts profile. Whoopsie

 

[Mickey1940]

voting Charizard

Considering how this Charizard is able to Mega/Gigantamax, this means that this isn't a Wild Charizard, but a trained Charizard, which, ignoring the fact that trained pokemon can fight the Creation Trio, means that TMs and Egg Moves are both on the table

This means Charizard gets access to Bulldoze, Rock Tomb, Rest, Sleep Talk, Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Substitute, Belly Drum, and freaking Counter. All of these moves either boost Charizard's speed, boosts Charizard's attack, nerfs Talulah's speed, heals/protects Charizard, or a combination of those effects

Charizard sets up a few dragon dances and hits Talula with speed nerfing moves and now he's 4 times stronger and 16 times faster. Sure, he starts out much weaker than Talulah, but 1 Mega Evo or Gigantamax, or just spamming boosting moves, fixes that up real quick

Even if we restrict TMs and Egg Moves, Charizard still has Growl, Smokescreen, Scary Face, Dragon Breath, and Air Slash, all of which nerf Talulah to kingdom come, ESPECIALLY Smokescreen, which at max stacks means Talulah misses 2/3rds of all of her attacks

Arts being dura neg doesn't mean jack shit because Charizard doesn't have any armor since it's a flying naked not-dragon. Sure, she can ignore def boosts, but Charizard's movepool doesn't include any def boosts anyways so it just doesn't matter. Not to mention, Max Guard has layered resistance to armor pen, as Unseen Fist, Urshifu's signature ability, completely ignores Protect, but is entirely blocked by Max Guard, meaning if Charizard GMaxes, Max Guard is his get out of jail free card


Overall, unless Talulah goes for the kill immediately (which I don't think she does), she hits Charizard once, he panics and megas/gigantamaxes immediately, and now her AP advantage is much less severe, Charizard spams his moves, buffs himself massively, nerfs Talulah massively, heals with RestTalk, and just wins

 

[Dragopentling]

voting Charizard

Considering how this Charizard is able to Mega/Gigantamax, this means that this isn't a Wild Charizard, but a trained Charizard, which, ignoring the fact that trained pokemon can fight the Creation Trio, means that TMs and Egg Moves are both on the table

This means Charizard gets access to Bulldoze, Rock Tomb, Rest, Sleep Talk, Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Substitute, Belly Drum, and freaking Counter. All of these moves either boost Charizard's speed, boosts Charizard's attack, nerfs Talulah's speed, heals/protects Charizard, or a combination of those effects

Charizard sets up a few dragon dances and hits Talula with speed nerfing moves and now he's 4 times stronger and 16 times faster. Sure, he starts out much weaker than Talulah, but 1 Mega Evo or Gigantamax, or just spamming boosting moves, fixes that up real quick

Even if we restrict TMs and Egg Moves, Charizard still has Growl, Smokescreen, Scary Face, Dragon Breath, and Air Slash, all of which nerf Talulah to kingdom come, ESPECIALLY Smokescreen, which at max stacks means Talulah misses 2/3rds of all of her attacks

Arts being dura neg doesn't mean jack shit because Charizard doesn't have any armor since it's a flying naked not-dragon. Sure, she can ignore def boosts, but Charizard's movepool doesn't include any def boosts anyways so it just doesn't matter. Not to mention, Max Guard has layered resistance to armor pen, as Unseen Fist, Urshifu's signature ability, completely ignores Protect, but is entirely blocked by Max Guard, meaning if Charizard GMaxes, Max Guard is his get out of jail free card


Overall, unless Talulah goes for the kill immediately (which I don't think she does), she hits Charizard once, he panics and megas/gigantamaxes immediately, and now her AP advantage is much less severe, Charizard spams his moves, buffs himself massively, nerfs Talulah massively, heals with RestTalk, and just wins

"Arts being dura neg doesn't mean jack shit"

If Talu was a Low Level Manipulator, maybe, but she's not. She's Mid-level and even Low Level benefits are already something that'd give Charizard sufficient enough trouble in trying to kill her.

Originium Arts

Originium is a substance in the world of Arknights which forms after Catastrophes and is widely used as an energy source, but causes the development of Oripathy in living organisms. Appearing as a black, semi-transparent crystalline mineral (although it has been occasionally seen in other colors...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Max Guard might unironically be his saving grace.

 

[Mickey1940]

"Arts being dura neg doesn't mean jack shit"

If Talu was a Low Level Manipulator, maybe, but she's not. She's Mid-level and even Low Level benefits are already something that'd give Charizard sufficient enough trouble in trying to kill her.

Charizard doesn't have any armor to bypass in the first place therefore it just wouldn't work

 

[Dragopentling]

Charizard doesn't have any armor to bypass in the first place therefore it just wouldn't work

Talulah vs Charizard

Purebred dragon girl vs "Not a dragon" Speed equalized. Fight takes place in Chernobog. Charizard is allowed to Mega Evolve or Gigantamax. (It's worth a shot, I guess?)

vsbattles.com

 

[Mickey1940]

Talulah vs Charizard

Purebred dragon girl vs "Not a dragon" Speed equalized. Fight takes place in Chernobog. Charizard is allowed to Mega Evolve or Gigantamax. (It's worth a shot, I guess?)

vsbattles.com

cool

this doesn't prevent charizard from using any self-buffing moves or RestTalk to just outlast and bully Talulah later on

Cool she ignores Charizard's resistance to fire manipulation, Charizard uses rest now he's back at full health, Sleep Talk pulls Dragon Dance, now Charizard blitzes

 

[Dragopentling]

cool

this doesn't prevent charizard from using any self-buffing moves or RestTalk to just outlast and bully Talulah later on

Cool she ignores Charizard's resistance to fire manipulation, Charizard uses rest now he's back at full health, Sleep Talk pulls Dragon Dance, now Charizard blitzes

Assuming Talulah doesn't just go for the kill after precog kicks in. Also if her 2nd key should be applicable here, too, she has Dmg reduction from anyone she affects with her Arts.

 

[Mickey1940]

Assuming Talulah doesn't just go for the kill after precog kicks in. Also if her 2nd key should be applicable here, too, she has Dmg reduction from anyone she affects with her Arts.

but she can't 1 shot Charizard

by the time her precog kicks in (all it does is warn her of danger which won't happen until it's too late), Charizard is already too strong AND fast for her to 1 shot

any amount of damage she deals isn't gonna stick cuz of Rest, and unless she actually does go out of her way to 1 shot a fodder lizard thing cuz her precog somehow warns her of Charizard's multiple stat amps and transformations (which it can't do), Charizard would just outgrow her.

The damage reduction doesn't help her since she's still taking damage regardless without any reliable healing ability, meanwhile Charizard has Rest.

 

[Mickey1940]

ok nvm I take back everything I said, Charizard doesn't learn sleep talk

ok that's a big problem

yeah nvm, without any form of reliable healing, Talulah might damage charizard too much before he really starts ramping up

 

[Dragopentling]

LOL Talulah Corona Slashes gg, then, I guess.

 

[Ebihara]

ok nvm I take back everything I said, Charizard doesn't learn sleep talk

ok that's a big problem

yeah nvm, without any form of reliable healing, Talulah might damage charizard too much before he really starts ramping up

He learns sleep talk via tm in gen 7/8. Can also get roost in gen 7 via tm. If this particular lizard has learned tm's they have healing options.

 

[Dragopentling]

He learns sleep talk via tm in gen 7/8. Can also get roost in gen 7 via tm. If this particular lizard has learned tm's they have healing options.

Iirc there was a time when TM moves are restricted in most matchups, but I digress. I’m very hesitant on consideration of Gen 9 when there’s barely been any active updates on it in terms of new profiles here. Anyways, more likely than not, Talu would go ham on Zard as soon as he heals up since he has nothing else to defend against her attacks besides the theoretical protection by Max Guard if in Gigantamax form, but he can’t use Sleep Talk in this form anyways. Sleep Talk is also still technically a dice roll, not a coin flip.

 

[Dragopentling]

Hmmm some things have me a bit amused: Based Charizard being 6-C due to Abomasnow yet other third stage mons are still High 7-A including Base Gyarados.
Mega Evolved and Gigantamax forms are about 16 gigatons if we don’t count the high-end calc of Abomasnow’s snowstorm (28 gigatons).

Meanwhile Talulah at base key should at very least significantly upscale from this calc, the likes of Base Amiya and Ch’en scaling to the second one. So unless there’s an updated revision to tweak the AP for Mega Evolution and Gigantamax, Talulah should have a comfortable AP advantage at least early on even if Char does resort to stat boosts.

 

[Mickey1940]

He learns sleep talk via tm in gen 7/8. Can also get roost in gen 7 via tm. If this particular lizard has learned tm's they have healing options.

ah right that's true, I forgot about TRs

also yeah roost

ok then I now reiterate what I said above, Charizard should outlast

 

[Mickey1940]

Iirc there was a time when TM moves are restricted in most matchups, but I digress. I’m very hesitant on consideration of Gen 9 when there’s barely been any active updates on it in terms of new profiles here. Anyways, more likely than not, Talu would go ham on Zard as soon as he heals up since he has nothing else to defend against her attacks besides the theoretical protection by Max Guard if in Gigantamax form, but he can’t use Sleep Talk in this form anyways. Sleep Talk is also still technically a dice roll, not a coin flip.

The issue is that Charizard isn't THAT much weaker than Talulah (4.34 Gigatons for Base Charizard, 13.69 for Talulah) and once he megas/Gigantamaxs, the gap is even smaller (above 8.68 Gigatons). Dura neg doesn't stop base transformation boosts, only enhancements and stat boosts, so Talulah should still have a harder time taking down a Mega Charizard, especially one who can heal himself on demand. Even if we use Gigantamax Charizard here, in an actual, non-game mechanics fight, Charizard spamming Max Guard isn't an issue, and if he can't take her down with Gigantamax, he just goes Mega and now Talulah is cooked.

What makes things worse is that Mega (and possibly gigantamax) also provide speed boosts as well, not to mention Dragon Dance, meaning Talulah can realistically get blitzed

 

[Mickey1940]

Hmmm some things have me a bit amused: Based Charizard being 6-C due to Abomasnow yet other third stage mons are still High 7-A including Base Gyarados.
Mega Evolved and Gigantamax forms are about 16 gigatons if we don’t count the high-end calc of Abomasnow’s snowstorm (28 gigatons).

I think it's just cuz the profiles haven't been updated yet

Charizard should scale to Abomasnow's 4.34 Gigaton calc since that was the one that was accepted, and Mega scales above Thick Club/Huge Power fully evolved pokemon who should be exactly double that, which is 8.68 Gigatons. Idk where u got the 16 Gigaton calc

 

[Mickey1940]

Meanwhile Talulah at base key should at very least significantly upscale from this calc, the likes of Base Amiya and Ch’en scaling to the second one. So unless there’s an updated revision to tweak the AP for Mega Evolution and Gigantamax, Talulah should have a comfortable AP advantage at least early on even if Char does resort to stat boosts.

wait Talulah scales to the 26.47 Gigaton calc?

that'll change things a LOT if that's the case

 

[Dragopentling]

wait Talulah scales to the 26.47 Gigaton calc?

that'll change things a LOT if that's the case

Yes, that’s why the stats boosts won’t mean anything anyways even if Zard “spams” them for stall. Especially considering the dura neg and damage reduction are still very significant contrary to your previous claims.

 

[Dragopentling]

The issue is that Charizard isn't THAT much weaker than Talulah (4.34 Gigatons for Base Charizard, 13.69 for Talulah) and once he megas/Gigantamaxs, the gap is even smaller (above 8.68 Gigatons). Dura neg doesn't stop base transformation boosts, only enhancements and stat boosts, so Talulah should still have a harder time taking down a Mega Charizard, especially one who can heal himself on demand. Even if we use Gigantamax Charizard here, in an actual, non-game mechanics fight, Charizard spamming Max Guard isn't an issue, and if he can't take her down with Gigantamax, he just goes Mega and now Talulah is cooked.

What makes things worse is that Mega (and possibly gigantamax) also provide speed boosts as well, not to mention Dragon Dance, meaning Talulah can realistically get blitzed

Issues here. When is Zard allowed both Mega and Gigantamax in any normal case? Even then, not much difference cause dura neg literally means ignoring conventional defense. Sure, Zard isn’t normally having physical armor, but he still has a notable defense STAT and is still taking a lot of damage that should be too great to conveniently heal up against. Even Mega Evolution isn’t giving him as massive an advantage when his HP is still the same, anyways. There’s a high chance Zard will be overwhelmed by the accumulated damage before he can ever get enough stat boosts to take over.

 

[Mickey1940]

Yes, that’s why the stats boosts won’t mean anything anyways even if Zard “spams” them for stall. Especially considering the dura neg and damage reduction are still very significant contrary to your previous claims.

Every example of Arknights dura negation is just bypassing heavy armor that physical damage normally. Heck, that's what's provided as an example on the profile

But Charizard is naked, he's not wearing heavy armor, and he doesn't get defensive stat boosts either

It's like Charizard taking damage from a regular attack, and Chip Away, Sacred Sword, and Darkest Lariat, or any move boosted by Unseen Fist. All 3 of those moves and the ability "ignore armor" since they bypass standard means of protection, but Charizard takes the same amount of damage from all of those moves since he doesn't have any armor to penetrate. It's just skin and flesh

Mega evolving increases Charizard's durability, but not artificially. His very biology changes. I don't think the dura neg can bypass the defenses provided from a literal mutation

 

[Mickey1940]

Issues here. When is Zard allowed both Mega and Gigantamax in any normal case? Even then, not much difference cause dura neg literally means ignoring conventional defense. Sure, Zard isn’t normally having physical armor, but he still has a notable defense STAT and is still taking a lot of damage that should be too great to conveniently heal up against. Even Mega Evolution isn’t giving him as massive an advantage when his HP is still the same, anyways. There’s a high chance Zard will be overwhelmed by the accumulated damage before he can ever get enough stat boosts to take over.

If Charizard megas, he just stays mega

If Charizard GMaxes, it wears off after a time

plus the OP says both are allowed

And no, afaik Talulah doesn't ignore the defense stat unless it's boosted through stat changes. She slashes through armor and defensive buffs but Charizard doesn't have armor or defensive buffs. You're basically saying Talulah can slice Goku in half or smthn, which I don't think is the case

Not to mention, a single dragon dance makes Charizard already extremely hard to keep up with, and that shit is extremely spammable, AND makes him stronger, not to mention his recovery moves (especially RestTalk) means he can heal while fighting

Yes, I agree the AP difference makes it extremely difficult for Charizard to take repeated hits, but Mega Evolving alone already boosts his speed by a pretty significant amount, and Dragon Dance buffs it even more than that, up to a x4 difference

It's not a stomp but ngl I believe Charizard wins extremely high diff, he just needs to abuse the mechanics of pokemon

 

[Dragopentling]

If Charizard megas, he just stays mega

If Charizard GMaxes, it wears off after a time

plus the OP says both are allowed

And no, afaik Talulah doesn't ignore the defense stat unless it's boosted through stat changes. She slashes through armor and defensive buffs but Charizard doesn't have armor or defensive buffs. You're basically saying Talulah can slice Goku in half or smthn, which I don't think is the case

Not to mention, a single dragon dance makes Charizard already extremely hard to keep up with, and that shit is extremely spammable, AND makes him stronger, not to mention his recovery moves (especially RestTalk) means he can heal while fighting

Yes, I agree the AP difference makes it extremely difficult for Charizard to take repeated hits, but Mega Evolving alone already boosts his speed by a pretty significant amount, and Dragon Dance buffs it even more than that, up to a x4 difference

It's not a stomp but ngl I believe Charizard wins extremely high diff, he just needs to abuse the mechanics of pokemon

Literally stated “or”, NOT “and”.

“Doesn’t ignore def stat unless there’s stat changes”
Where does it even specify that? I never stated Talulah can slice Goku in half, that’s NLF otherwise. But here they’re in the same tier so I dunno where you’re getting that from.

Yea good luck when Talu’s Arts has AOE range, so speed may not matter that much if he cannot get away or even close in.

Sure he CAN win high-diff, but I don’t see that happening more often than not.

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Yeah, no. I'm voting Talulah

Apparently, no one watched the link to the game's story under profile.

to create concrete heat around the enemies' bodies to incinerate them from within

Go to 4:18

"Should Chen open her mouth to speak, the heat around her mouth would rapidly increase, burrowing into her esophagus and incinerating her from within."

"Amiya and Chen are forced to remain silent."

Amiya and Chen only even won against Talulah because a mix of power null, and the fact that they literally had to shut their mouths.

Considering Charizard isn't the Pokemon who remains silent all, he just gets vaped from the inside out.

Arknights game mechanics apply just as much as Pokemon. What is this logic that Arts doesn't neg durability?