SVTFOE Revisions

[Sir_Ovens]

Here

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

From what I'm seeing in that scene it seems more that he just hit her eye(which is usually a weaker spot for most people) but even then he's consistently been shown lower. Refer to the points I listed above.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

This looks pretty impressive and I agree.

 

[Antvasima]

This seems fine to me as well.

 

[Dark649]

Me too.

 

[GreyFang82]

Marco has in fact shown to harm and break free from Tom and his abilities:

- When he chopped off Tom's hand (Granted it was with Tom off guard)

- When Marco broke through Tom's chains

I can agree with Tom being usually superior but they aren't that far apart. But keep in mind those interactions all happend before Running With Scissors so Marco could be have closed the gap between them even more. I believe the only (Combat) interaction the two had after RWS is the Stump Day episode in which Marco dodged a fireball from him and then they wrestled a little, nothing really conclusive.

On to the Toffee note, honestly Toffee's durability has been shown to actually not be as high as you would think, so your Buu comparison maybe closer to the truth.

Star was able to rip off his arm with a normal spell: https://youtu.be/y8mPrY1U7HM?t=141

And Marco being comparable to Star's spells makes him punching through Toffee not an outlier and is in fact consistant. And we know Toffee is clearly stronger from him one-shotting Marco a few second later.

So I actually think Toffee is a glass cannon, and his Durability should be around the lower-end of Star's spells, while his AP should be superior to Marco's Durability (AT LEAST). I'm not trying to downplay I'm just suggesting some scaling.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

You do realize those moments you noted just further explains why Tom should be downgraded since his 3-A statement(which was a one-off gag) is being heavily contradicted by a barely 8-C to 8-B, but even playing devil's advocate and assuming he did just "close the gap" Tom is tiered at 3-A while the attempt that Ovens was doing above was to make him Low 2-C so when did Tom suddenly jump to Low 2-C? All of this being done before running with scissors just further makes his tiering inconsistent.

Toffee's tanked magic from Moon so the feat is an outlier, his body can tank stronger attacks.

 

[GreyFang82]

You do realize those moments you noted just further explains why Tom should be downgraded since his 3-A statement
Toffee's tanked magic from Moon so the feat is an outlier, his body can tank stronger attacks.

Who said I was arguing for Tom to stay 3-A? I feel like that one line the demon said about blowing up a universe was an exaggeration and shouldn't have been used.

I agree with Tom being 8-C to 8-B it was the statment of him being stronger than Marco in general that I had issue with, I suppose that was my bad for not clearifying that.

Also the Toffee tanking spells from Moon, are you talking about when he's fused to Ludo and is trapped in the wand? Yes, Toffee is clearly Low 2-C in AP and Durability, but Toffee with his normal body should be scaled (at least in durability) to Star and Marco's attacks as they both were able to damage him. His AP in his normal body is something I can't pin down except him knocking Marco out in one punch. (And I think that statment in the Star vs FOE book I think said he was comparable to a planet buster?)

It seems I had a lot of thoughts in my head that I failed to express and that's why we have this misunderstanding. I apologize.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

From what you explainned, you admitted Tom was still stronger then Marco, Marco just had moments of one-upping him.

When he reformed his body he was even unaffected by an Eclipsa potency spell from Moon.

 

[GreyFang82]

From what you explainned, you admitted Tom was still stronger then Marco, Marco just had moments of one-upping him.
When he reformed his body he was even unaffected by an Eclipsa potency spell from Moon.

Yeah i conceded that Tom is stronger than Marco pre-RWS, but after running with scissors It's not known if there is a gap anymore. Once again I bring up that the only conflict between the two was during the stump day episode.

You mean when Moon did the chant? That literally didn't do anything!

The wand and spell literally didn't work and failed to even fire, he didn't shrug it off like you say, here's the clip: https://youtu.be/3glOWNVOmq8?t=26

 

[HailTheGodTwains]

Further elaborating on GreyFang's point, you can see how the wand was still in Star's design, even though once grabbed, it usually tranforms into their weilder's own design. Example, once Star got her wand it immediately went to that design. Meaning that Moon didn't use the wand.

Further elaborated by how there was hardly any more magic left in the wand as shown earlier in the episode, meaning that it would be highly unlikely that Moon would be capable of using it.

In conclusion, Toffee didn't tank Moon's spell.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I disagree with the spacetime manipulation: Star didn't cause the time loop with a spell. She was stuck in it.

 

[Aki_No_Mangetsu]

Hey I know this is somewhat unrelated but I have a question about hekapoos speed feat, she runs off screen then reappears on the other side right? Then couldn't she have just used the dimensional scissors to teleport to behind Marco?

 

[Totallynotchewbacca]

i don't agree with their speeds at all though, because that is likely outlier they should scale to her father who has been shown to be superior to them in all ways

Plus hekapoo was likely going easy on him

 

[GreyFang82]

Hey I know this is somewhat unrelated but I have a question about hekapoos speed feat, she runs off screen then reappears on the other side right? Then couldn't she have just used the dimensional scissors to teleport to behind Marco?

Yo funny enough when that feat was first introduced both Dark and I (mostly Dark) raised the same questio. But Spartin replied that she was running around the planet and that it applied to the Magic High Council so it wasn't an outlier. I'm still not sure if its a solid feat myself due to the two heavy assumptions that plague it. But I'm not here to argue that.

 

[Aki_No_Mangetsu]

Yo funny enough when that feat was first introduced both Dark and I (mostly Dark) raised the same questio. But Spartin replied that she was running around the planet and that it applied to the Magic High Council so it wasn't an outlier. I'm still not sure if its a solid feat myself due to the heavy assumptions that plague it.

So they ignored your argument?

 

[GreyFang82]

So they ignored your argument?

Hey, I'm just one guy and Dark already said OK. But I really just want to focus on the scaling here on this thread and drop the thing until later.

 

[Aki_No_Mangetsu]

Hey, I'm just one guy and Dark already said OK. But I really just want to focus on the scaling here on this thread and drop the thing until later.

Well since there's already a revision I thought this would be an opportune time for it, but I guess it can wait

 

[GreyFang82]

Well I mean it would be such a big revision that it kinda would need to be its own thing IMO, but don't let me stop you. I was referring to me dropping it not you, I just want the OP to respond to my questions and evidence.

 

[Aki_No_Mangetsu]

Well I mean it would be such a big revision that it kinda would need to be its own thing IMO, but don't let me stop you. I was referring to me dropping it not you, I just want the OP to respond to my questions and evidence.

Okey I think I'll make a thread about it sometime, should I wait till this one is over?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I disagree with the spacetime manipulation: Star didn't cause the time loop with a spell. She was stuck in it.

How does that debunk her not causing the time loop? The time loop was caused due to her using the wand. All that means was she was affected by the aftermath too.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Yeah i conceded that Tom is stronger than Marco pre-RWS, but after running with scissors It's not known if there is a gap anymore. Once again I bring up that the only conflict between the two was during the stump day episode.

You mean when Moon did the chant? That literally didn't do anything!

The wand and spell literally didn't work and failed to even fire, he didn't shrug it off like you say, here's the clip: https://youtu.be/3glOWNVOmq8?t=26

How is it known at there's no gap anymore? The most you brought is that he wrestled a bit with Tom, that doesn't mean much.

Hm, remembering from the S3 pilot movie, Toffee was capable of removing magic. So I guess this should also indicate that he has corruption on a conceptual level?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Hey I know this is somewhat unrelated but I have a question about hekapoos speed feat, she runs off screen then reappears on the other side right? Then couldn't she have just used the dimensional scissors to teleport to behind Marco?

No because the scene shows her continously running and no indication that she portal hopped, this is especially made clear when Marco turns around to catch her and there's no indication of a portal from behind.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The time loop was caused because she was the only Star in all the parallel universes who couldn't solve the math problem. IT wasn't because of the wand.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

The time loop was caused because she was the only Star in all the parallel universes who couldn't solve the math problem. IT wasn't because of the wand.

? The time loop didn't start until she messed with it through using her wand. OP even mentions that the math problem is something she has to do herself, and can't ask for help out of.

 

[GreyFang82]

Ok, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Since Tom's 3-A is obviously not where his power is going to be scaled to, who or what does he scale to? Obviously Star. but not Star in her peak (not Low 2-C) and not to more potent spells like the whispering spell, so clearly it would scale to her common spells like narwhal blast, warnicorn stampede, and spider with a top hat blast.

Marco has shown to compare to Tom before season three in those two outbursts I listed above (which all happened before Running With Scissors), and now that Marco has actually shown to be superior to all of those basic spells, it is now hard to conclusivly say "Tom is stronger than Marco" that's why I say the gap has been closed.

"Toffee was capable of removing magic. So I guess this should also indicate that he has corruption on a conceptual level?"

You haven't acknowledged the argument about his durability, you deflected and said "Toffee likely has this power now", that's great but you haven't addressed the actual argument. If you want to concede that Toffee didn't tank the attack and that it is in fact more consistent that he is a glass cannon while in his original form please do, otherwise please debunk my argument.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Yeah i conceded that Tom is stronger than Marco pre-RWS, but after running with scissors It's not known if there is a gap anymore. Once again I bring up that the only conflict between the two was during the stump day episode.

You mean when Moon did the chant? That literally didn't do anything!

The wand and spell literally didn't work and failed to even fire, he didn't shrug it off like you say, here's the clip: https://youtu.be/3glOWNVOmq8?t=26

How is it known at there's no gap anymore? The most you brought is that he wrestled a bit with Tom, that doesn't mean much.
Hm, remembering from the S3 pilot movie, Toffee was capable of removing magic. So I guess this should also indicate that he has corruption on a conceptual level?

I would like to point out that all of Toffee's powers in that movie were done while posessing Ludo and when he had the wand embedded in his hand, so that's not really appliccable to him, since he most likely can't do it himself. Even in that scene he took their magic using the wand.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The time loop is because she didn't solve the problem. It's not because of her actions with the wand. Omnimatrix explains it in the video.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

He scales to Marco due to being stronger then him.

You showed Marco break out of some chains tom made and wrestle with him, I don't see in the least bit how that makes him stronger at most comparable to him. Marco also isn't outright "superior" to all basic spells I'd say, just moreso comparable to them and knows how to fight them off. Also when has it been shown that Tom is weaker then Star's basic spells? Star only ever used ice manipulation on Tom, which is ignoring conventional durability via freezing him.

I didn't address it because I already brought up the Ludo point. Ludo in no way should be superior to Toffee in durability nor does Toffee have any reason to do all of this planning just to revert back to a weaker body. I don't see either how it's "more consistent" that he's a glass cannon, you brought up one entire scene where he got hit by Marco.

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I would like to point out that all of Toffee's powers in that movie were done while posessing Ludo and when he had the wand embedded in his hand, so that's not really appliccable to him, since he most likely can't do it himself. Even in that scene he took their magic using the wand.

Possessing Ludo would mean nothing since Ludo's body has shown to be harmed by Star's basic potency spells, the wand being embedded in hsi hand would mean what exactly in this case? The wand has shown that it gets destroyed after a Low 7-C attack. I have no idea why it wouldn't be applicable to him when the two factors you noted are far below Low 2-C. Also he was tanking hits from them prior to even taking all of their magic and as I already addressed above: "nor does Toffee have any reason to do all of this planning just to revert back to a weaker body."

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

The time loop is because she didn't solve the problem. It's not because of her actions with the wand. Omnimatrix explains it in the video.

I've already explainned above which it seems you ignored: "The time loop didn't start until she messed with it through using her wand. OP even mentions that the math problem is something she has to do herself, and can't ask for help out of." She attempted to use the wand to get out of the math problem and the time loop occurred.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I already read what you said and I'm telling you it's false. Omnitraxus says the timeloops i caused becasue she didn't do the math problem and to fix it she would need to do the work. If her spell caused the timeloop, why wasn't the spell mentioned as the cause? It's in the very video you posted.

 

[Totallynotchewbacca]

i think star was just stuck in it for doing something differently than all other stars and she just had to fix it

also star should get acasulity for this

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Star was stuck in it for not doing the work herself. It's explained perfectly. All the other stars did the work. She refused and that's why the timeloop was created.

And why would Star get acauslity from this?

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

The spell wasn't mention as the cause because hte main point was that she was attempting to use something to get herself out of the math problem. The very video I posted states she's the only one that didn't do the math problem and it's something she has to do and can't ask for help out of. The time loop again, starts the minute she uses her wand on the problem.

 

[Totallynotchewbacca]

when everything was getting messed up like them turning into insects she momentarily reained herself and she didn't change at all during the other time loops

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

I believe Prismo has a similar TPI reasoning like that.

 

[Totallynotchewbacca]

actually in this clip https://youtu.be/aAreLbL5Yxc?t=15 OP said these crystals were universes (?) this may be a 2-A feat or 2-B if these are actual universes

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

It starts the minute she uses the wand, because she doesn't do the work.

She also states, "I tried to use my wand to solve it but I ended up right back where I started". That in no way applies it's her spell that causes the timeloop. It was her actions that caused it. It's not an applicable feat to her spells.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KfGEZRzaI0

 

[GiverOfThePeace]

Her stating that already goes back to what I originally said, the wand itself should be able to do the work, yet it just causes a time loop since she herself isn't.