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Supreme Kai Shin CRT.

This was rejected in the past because it says "Shin should be equal to Goku in the Cell Games", meaning it sounds much like an estimation that a statement.
Given it's not Toriyama who writes this (his team supervises it), this makes the line non-definitive
 
GodlyCharmander said:
This was rejected in the past because it says "Shin should be equal to Goku in the Cell Games", meaning it sounds much like an estimation that a statement.
Given it's not Toriyama who writes this (his team supervises it), this makes the line non-definitive
Click to expand...
Yes, as well as the logic as to why he "should" be that strong is pretty stupid, given that just because Cell stomps Goku and Dabura stomps Shin, doesn't mean Goku = Shin. Shim might as well could be as strong as anyone else in the Cell Games based on that logic alone since Cell stomps everyone there
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Yes, as well as the logic as to why he "should" be that strong is pretty stupid, given that just because Cell stomps Goku and Dabura stomps Shin, doesn't mean Goku = Shin. Shim might as well could be as strong as anyone else in the Cell Games based on that logic alone since Cell stomps everyone there
Click to expand...
Yeah.

For those who can't read Spanish, it states as following:
"Judging by how cautious he is with Dabura, who is around Cell's level, we can deduce that he has the same strength as Goku during the Cell Games"

This is a deduction from the editors of this particular databook, aka, their opinion. This is obviously very unprofessional, too.
 
If that what the scan says, then I agree for it to be unusable. Shin's scaling would be: Shin > Piccolo > Cell Games Piccolo >>> Pre-HBTC Piccolo = Android 17
 
GodlyCharmander said:
How is that related to what Gilad said in any way?
Click to expand...
He said the Goku = Shin statement could be applied to any other character from the Cell Games since all of them were stomped by Cell in his Perfect Form. However, he ignores Goku's statement about using only 50% of his full power and therefore, they can't be compared to Shin in that way.
 
Vizer04 said:
He said the Goku = Shin statement could be applied to any other character from the Cell Games since all of them were stomped by Cell in his Perfect Form. However, he ignores Goku's statement about using only 50% of his full power and therefore, they can't be compared to Shin in that way.
Click to expand...
Huh? No, he said Shin could be as strong as anyone based on this statement alone, because everyone there was cautious about Perfect Cell.
 
Vizer04 said:
No? Shin is stated to be equal to Goku and no one was remotely comparable to Goku during the Cell Games (except Gohan and Cell, of course)
Click to expand...
This is the worst case of poor interpretation I've seen this week.

Gilad said,
"Based on this logic [...]"
The logic being, "he was cautious of Cell-level opponent"
"Shin could be as strong as anyone on the Cell Games"
Because everyone was cautious of Cell.

He's basically saying this logic doesn't justify Shin scaling to Goku because it can apply to everyone.
 
Vizer04 said:
I already explained to you why this logic is flawed, Goku was stronger than everyone at the Cell Games with just 50% of his power.
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter. While this is true that Goku was stronger, the logic as to why Shin is that powerful is flawed as well, since Cell stomping Goku doesn't indicate Shin being equal to him at all, especially when they "deduce" that based on nothing. The statement might as well could've referred to everyone else there and it'd be equally as valid (or rather invalid)

You seem to consistently miss that point
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Scaling from Z clearly debunks it. Shin couldn't lift the Z Sword, while Goku lifted it in Base form. Shin also can one shot Frieza, meaning Base Goku > Frieza

And this is just one example to debunk you
Click to expand...
I agree with this, but that's a bad example. Lifting Strength doesn't necessarily translate to power output.

Also, Beerus' statement does not apply because Goku was casual, and not using his max power in base form.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
I agree with this, but that's a bad example. Lifting Strength doesn't necessarily translate to power output.

Also, Beerus' statement does not apply because Goku was casual, and not using his max power in base form.
Click to expand...
Well, there's also Base Goku seriously damaging the Old Kai, and as we know, all Supreme Kais can one shot Frieza

And Goku was extremely casual when he did that.

And again, this is just one examples. There are many more that show that Goku surpassed Frieza in Base even before Beerus
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Well, there's also Base Goku seriously damaging the Old Kai, and as we know, all Supreme Kais can one shot Frieza

And Goku was extremely casual when he did that.

And again, this is just one examples. There are many more that show that Goku surpassed Frieza in Base even before Beerus
Click to expand...
That's an even worse example but okay.
A better example is BoG goku being the strongest warrior at the time putting him above ultimate gohan in SSJ3, which makes his base form greater than base gotenks who's greater than SSJ2s.
 
GodlyCharmander said:
And then you reply with the worst example of them all!

This declaration doesn't necessarily refer to Goku in his base form.
Click to expand...
I didn't say it did. I scaled Goku's strongest form to the statement. Which would mean SSJ3 Goku > Ultimate gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks, therefore base Goku > Base Gotenks who is > SSJ2 buu saga level.
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Scaling from Z clearly debunks it. Shin couldn't lift the Z Sword, while Goku lifted it in Base form. Shin also can one shot Frieza, meaning Base Goku > Frieza

And this is just one example to debunk you
Click to expand...
Trying to use LS to debunk this is ineffective, especially since shin himself never even fought physically, only using Psychokinesis/energy blasts, his katchin he created from Magic also shattered the Z sword. Not to mention Goku himself was on the end of a rather pathetic 40 tons low end feat.


Even if you look at his feats when he did fight, he did just as good, of not better -however pitifully- than Gohan against buu, unless one wants to imply that buu reduced his PL when he faced Shin. He also, while nearly unconscious, detonated the blast that buu hit SS Gohan with, that was intended to kill him. These are not feats of someone weaker than base Gohan overall


I mean, we have a literal statement by a GoD, whis knowledgeable about Frieza outright noting that base Goku couldn't beat Frieza, and then realizing how he beat him after seeing his super Saiyan forms, statement that was not challenged whatsoever by GOKU HIMSELF who was right there. But somehow, it should be ignored because the idea doesn't sit right with you.

And inb4 "Goku was suppressed" argument, if beerus was wrong about that, Goku himself would've corrected him especially when it comes to be told he's weaker than Frieza, not to mention that Goku basically stopped holding back after Beerus slapped him around, and that point Beerus could still know his base PLs
 
Gilad_Hyperstar said:
Well, there's also Base Goku seriously damaging the Old Kai, and as we know, all Supreme Kais can one shot Frieza

And Goku was extremely casual when he did that.

And again, this is just one examples. There are many more that show that Goku surpassed Frieza in Base even before Beerus
Click to expand...
Supereme Kai said everyone of the 5 kais he was with at the time buu came could oneshot Frieza, his statement had absolutely nothing to do with old Kai, who he didn't even know existed
 
Buu literally played around with them. This is why Shin lasted as long as he did. Only after Gohan was defeated Buu was challenged by Vegeta, which allowed Shin to escape, otherwise Buu would've killed him too

Fat Buu was also pretty sadistic, so yeah, he'd definitely lower his power if it means to extend his enemies suffering, despite being able to one shot them with ease.

Even with Vegeta he toyed with him and then brutally beated him before Vegeta finally angered him which made him fight more seriously
 
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