Superman upgrade to 2-A

[Anorak1]

This thread is about a feat that has been use as "low multiverse".

All description of this is already in the profile, but there's a detail that is quite important and it's missing.

Time Trapper erased ALL possible futures, not only some of them. And in Warlod #80, Reno explained that are an infinite number of possible futures

So, that's a multiverse+ level feat.

 

[Eficiente]

The feat itself is correct, but please call other DC experts, as I see it if this feat wasn't an outlier before it will be now. I was never really ok with it but 2-A Superman and others is just exaggerated. Also the context, Superman is comparable to others, it's quite likely that his energy saving the timelines is not just out of its pure power but out of some weakness in the mechanics of how everything was done, hence what he does "counters" it.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Well he was Low Multiversal because of one feat, now he would be 2-A because of two feats!

 

[PrinceOfTheMorning]

I believe his feat was judged to be lower because no one could find any proof that it was meant to be portrayed that high in the mid-70s when it happened. At that time there were a few hundred universes that people who've done some reading know of, but Warlord 80 is from nearly a decade later around the COIE era, when infinite universes was established.

 

[Anorak1]

Nope. The multiverse was established as infinite way back then.

You can find this around 30-40 issue of Green Lantern, which it's around the decade of 60/70

 

[FuuHouHou]

bump

 

[ElixirBlue]

Too soon for a bump. You have to wait a couple hours to bump

 

[Stefano4444]

Well he was Low Multiversal because of one feat, now he would be 2-A because of two feats!

What other 2-A feat he had? Beside possible harming 2-A characters like Fate or Darkseid.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

He scales to Supergirl destroying base Anti-Monitor's body

 

[Stefano4444]

He scales to Supergirl destroying base Anti-Monitor's body

Personally i have always considered that part as a PIS moment, since Anti-Monitor was able to easily beat Pre Crisis Superman.

 

[GoldenMaster7]

I agree with 2-B pre-Crisis Superman, not sure about 2-A.

 

[Antvasima]

I believe his feat was judged to be lower because no one could find any proof that it was meant to be portrayed that high in the mid-70s when it happened. At that time there were a few hundred universes that people who've done some reading know of, but Warlord 80 is from nearly a decade later around the COIE era, when infinite universes was established.

This is correct, yes, and it would also be too much of an outlier otherwise.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

This problem has been discussed multiple times in the past, to the point that there is already a Note on Superman's page explaining the situation. DC was inconsistent about how many universes existed at the time of the story's writing, and Earth's "possible futures" are clearly not analogous to DC's standard collection of alternate universes, which are far more often treated as parallel dimensions rather than future variations. There were only a handful of alternate futures introduced at the time of this story, and nothing in the narrative indicated they were infinite in number. Bumping this feat up to 2-A requires too much speculation from the reader's end and contradicts Superman's far more consistent showings of simply affecting multiple universes and chipping at 2-B entities like Kent Nelso, Mordru, and The Time Trapper.

 

[Firestorm808]

Pre-Crisis Superman and Family are considered much weaker than Darkseid, putting them below 2-B unless we upgrade Darkseid and Time Trapper to 2-A.

• Forever People Vol 1 #1 March 1971
  • Earth-One Superman was having significant trouble with a couple of Darkseid's fodder minions.
• Superman Vol 1 #295 January 1976
  • At least 2-C, possibly 2-A | Restored all possible futures via raw power alone his fight with Jaxon the Mighty.
• Legion of Super-Heroes Vol 2 #287 May 1982 to Legion of Super-Heroes Vol 2 #294 December 1982
  • Darkseid realized at the end of the Great Darkness Saga storyline that he was actually still weaker than he had been in the 20th century. Feats from GDS include easily beating Mordruand Time Trapper (Controller minion) before even reaching his full power within that storyline, creating Validus, who has far greater strength/durability than Pre-Crisis Kryptonians, by imbuing a baby with some of his power, and completely stomping Mon-El, a Pre-Crisis Daxamite. Furthermore, a heavily amped Superboy and Supergirl weren't able to inflict any injuries on him, and he BFR'd Superboy before beginning to torture Supergirl for fun. This is a weakened Darkseid.
  • While significantly weakened, he defeated both Mordru and Time Trapper (Controller) and absorbed their energies, along with energy from all of Sorcerer's World, and was still weaker than normal.
• Warlord Vol 1 #80 April 1984
  • There are theoretically an infinite number of possible futures.
• Crisis on Infinite Earths Vol 1 #7 October 1985
  • 2-A | Supergirl destroys base Anti-Monitor's body.
• Who's Who: The Definitive Directory of the DC Universe Vol 1 #23 January 1987
  • The Who's Who in the DC Universe comic run used Darkseid as a benchmark for hyping Time Trapper, saying that Time Trapper was great enough to be considered a peer to Darkseid. This issue came out in '87 and is referring to the real Time Trapper, not the weaker Controller minion, as seen in the bottom section.

On a side note, we need to revise Darkseid's AP description. Darkseid stomped Post-Crisis Superman in the issues below, not Pre-Crisis Superman.

• Superman Vol 2 #3 March 1987
  • Massively FTL+ | Darkseid is capable of blitzing Post-Crisis Superma
• The Power of Darkseid! - Action Comics Vol 1 #637 January 1989, The Power Within - Action Comics Vol 1 #638 February 1989
  • Darkseid incapacitates Post-Crisis Superman with a single, casual blast. One casual blast left Superman on the ground, too weak to even try stopping Darkseid from leaving.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Isn't Darkseid superior to Butcher and Paralax Who scales to Spectre?

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I basically agree with Firstorm on this. Superma has some 2-C evidence, but he's consistently painted as below 2-B characters, capable of harming them but not capable of out and out defeating them without outside help. He has an outlier or two in the 2-A category, but the other evidence makes him more consistently suitable for a 2-C tiering. Raising him to 2-A would necessitate raising all of the characters he chips into some higher version of 2-A, and they don't have the feats for such an upgrade. The Knowledgeable Members have discussed this at length multiple times by now.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

@Hellbeast: Darkseid scales above The Emotional Entities when they are hostless. Parallax only scales to The Spectre in his Zero Hour form, and even then, The Spectre was not operating at his full capacity at the time.

 

[Hellbeast1]

Ah ok

 

[Antvasima]

I will unlock the Darkseid profile. Tell me here when you are done.

Is there anything else that we need to do here?

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I can take care of it.

I'll impliment the changes, and then you can close the thread.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I have completed the necessary edits.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you for helping out.