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Superman revision

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Joemungousaur

Joemungousaur

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Superman isn't Solar System level. He's Planet-Buster and Star level with IMP.

"Threw a compressed solar system away from the Earth"

Trinity (2008) #2 - It's nowhere stated that this Star has same mass as our Sun. It's pure headcanon.

"Shook the Solar System in his fight with Darkseid"

Shooking a Solar System isn't a Solar System level feat.

"Withstood an explosion equivalent to 50 Keplar Supernovas while weakened by Red Sun Radiation"

Action Comics #847 - Comic clearly states that it was electromagnetic shockwaves that hit to Superman and if the radiaton balls will touch him it'll incinerate him.

" Held a mini-black hole that would have destroyed an entire solar system"

JLA (1997) #77 - Black Hole feats isn't quantifable.

Other 3 feats are inconsistent with Superman's other showings.

"Survived the collision of New Genesis and Apokolips"

In Death of the New Gods series it nowhere stated that New Genesis and Apokolips was bigger than Earth, also Boom Tubes adjusts Superman's (and other 3-D beings') size so in Sphere of the Gods there isn't difference between Earth and New Genesis/Apokolips.

"Infinite Mass Punch"

I don't know why in IMP calculation relativistic mass of white dwarf star was used, it clearly stated that it only hit with a force of the white dwarf star not with a relativistic mass of the white dwarf star.

Superman doesn't even destroyed a planet in Post-Crisis continituum he's best AP showing is destroying Shadow Moon and explosion knocked him out. Planetary attacks consistently KO'd him (Death of the New Gods #8 - Planetary collision, Justice League of America #30 - Shadow Moon explosion, Source Wall explosion which was comparable to Planetary collision - Death of the New Gods #7 etc.)
 
These seems to be some valid points, although he would still scale to High 4-C from the Hal Jordan and Kyle Rayner Green Lanterns.
 
Kyle Rayner contained a supernova in DC One Million, and Hal Jordan had an energy output of this level in the current Green Lantern Grant Morrison run.
 
1. The Electromagnetic shockwaves of a supernova are part of the explosive force and suviving them is Solar system level. The radiation would have incinerated him because he was weakened by red sun radiation


https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/news/supernova-shock-waves-neutron-stars-and-lobsters.html

"A supernova that signals the death of a massive star sends titanic shock waves rumbling through interstellar space. An ultra-dense neutron star is usually left behind, which is far from dead, as it spews out a blizzard of high-energy particles. Two new images from NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory provide fascinating views ― including an enigmatic lobster-like feature ― of the complex aftermath of a supernova.

When a massive star runs out of fuel, the central regions usually collapse to form a neutron star. The energy generated by the formation of the neutron star triggers a supernova. As the outward-moving shock wave sweeps up interstellar gas, a reverse shock wave is driven inward, heating the material ejected by the star."


http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2989

"In very large stars, this contraction can occur very quickly and as all the material rushes into the center of the star. Because this material is rushing in from all directions, it all squishes together and the force of this compaction causes a rebound which sends a very powerful shockwave into the swirling material of the star's outer shell. This shockwave blows the material out into space in a tremendous explosion that is the supernova."

2. Actually, it's statyed repeatedly that even scaled up, New Genesis and Apokolips are massive, to the point that "The average city is 1000 miles across". For comparison, that's the distance between San Franciso and Colorado, or from San Deigo to Portland, or from St. Luis to New York City. That makes NG and Apokolips still around the size of a small star compared to Earth.

http://i.imgur.com/baOEU.jpg


3. The Shadow Moon feat involves Dark Energy from Shadow Thief, which specifically drains heat and light energy, such as Superman's sunlight. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1c/63/dd/1c63dd75c919683cd55166eae8295a0c.jpg


4. The Source Wall Explosion is not comparable to a planetary explosion. It's specifically stated in that very comic that a Source wall breach endangers the universe. In addition, we've seen that much smaller holes in the Source wall have chunks much larger than Earth, simply by comparing them to the Promethean Giants

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Vb-2MzJzEMw/Vx3FHJtACaI/AAAAAAAAHf8/pxvBAa431NQB3trpdnBjk3J_SO-b7KkAwCCo/s1600/RCO018.jpg

Vastly smaller holes in the Source wall being larger than Earth and Superman not being knocked out by them.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GSSTmRklzXqtB5xymHMjGyaL6zdc6DljHmM9ScUC5gJO3O8LpNA9YfsyyCQSFl_dePFGdn0uPReq=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pTlTivIjJ3mBazLEYUONmje1FEmADSHLcjf2253KZir1GFWzj3K1HBMjByZlNg1ncxLYLgiVyNsu=s1600

We know they're larger than earth via comparing the size of it to the Promethean Giant right next to it and comparing that to the size of a Promethean giant and Earth

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/2/27500/952049-orion___14___page_16.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/nvvHdAD.jpg

 
AerrowStorm1 said:
1. The Electromagnetic shockwaves of a supernova are part of the explosive force and suviving them is Solar system level. The radiation would have incinerated him because he was weakened by red sun radiation

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/chandra/news/supernova-shock-waves-neutron-stars-and-lobsters.html

"A supernova that signals the death of a massive star sends titanic shock waves rumbling through interstellar space. An ultra-dense neutron star is usually left behind, which is far from dead, as it spews out a blizzard of high-energy particles. Two new images from NASA's Chandra X-ray Observatory provide fascinating views ― including an enigmatic lobster-like feature ― of the complex aftermath of a supernova.

When a massive star runs out of fuel, the central regions usually collapse to form a neutron star. The energy generated by the formation of the neutron star triggers a supernova. As the outward-moving shock wave sweeps up interstellar gas, a reverse shock wave is driven inward, heating the material ejected by the star."


http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2989

"In very large stars, this contraction can occur very quickly and as all the material rushes into the center of the star. Because this material is rushing in from all directions, it all squishes together and the force of this compaction causes a rebound which sends a very powerful shockwave into the swirling material of the star's outer shell. This shockwave blows the material out into space in a tremendous explosion that is the supernova."

2. Actually, it's statyed repeatedly that even scaled up, New Genesis and Apokolips are massive, to the point that "The average city is 1000 miles across". For comparison, that's the distance between San Franciso and Colorado, or from San Deigo to Portland, or from St. Luis to New York City. That makes NG and Apokolips still around the size of a small star compared to Earth.

http://i.imgur.com/baOEU.jpg


3. The Shadow Moon feat involves Dark Energy from Shadow Thief, which specifically drains heat and light energy, such as Superman's sunlight. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1c/63/dd/1c63dd75c919683cd55166eae8295a0c.jpg


4. The Source Wall Explosion is not comparable to a planetary explosion. It's specifically stated in that very comic that a Source wall breach endangers the universe. In addition, we've seen that much smaller holes in the Source wall have chunks much larger than Earth, simply by comparing them to the Promethean Giants

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Vb-2MzJzEMw/Vx3FHJtACaI/AAAAAAAAHf8/pxvBAa431NQB3trpdnBjk3J_SO-b7KkAwCCo/s1600/RCO018.jpg

Vastly smaller holes in the Source wall being larger than Earth and Superman not being knocked out by them.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/GSSTmRklzXqtB5xymHMjGyaL6zdc6DljHmM9ScUC5gJO3O8LpNA9YfsyyCQSFl_dePFGdn0uPReq=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/pTlTivIjJ3mBazLEYUONmje1FEmADSHLcjf2253KZir1GFWzj3K1HBMjByZlNg1ncxLYLgiVyNsu=s1600

We know they're larger than earth via comparing the size of it to the Promethean Giant right next to it and comparing that to the size of a Promethean giant and Earth

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/scale_medium/2/27500/952049-orion___14___page_16.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/nvvHdAD.jpg
Click to expand...
It nowhere stated that the Shadow Moon involves Dark Energy, this Moon was created by Neron. These chunks in the same size as Superman so it doesn't matter.
 
It nowhere stated that the Shadow Moon involves Dark Energy, this Moon was created by Neron. These chunks in the same size as Superman so it doesn't matter.
The Dark moon wasn't created by Neron. It was created by Shadow Thief amped by Starbreaker.

Issue 29

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-imT2jh9W...l3d01pLdV2l053HWpngQCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO022.jpg


https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YuBvKKCx...CF83KkJoE6o9UL3wW6RgCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO023.jpg

Confirming it's Shadow Thief.

Issue 30

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eeIixx0D...F52T_MnhOD2TpIJ81vswCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO003.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nnE5qokJ...fw9cx9gziVREUA0Js82QCCo/s1600-Ic42/RCO009.jpg

Confirming he's amped.

So yes. It's Shadow Thief. We know it's him, and we know his powers absorb light and heat.
 
Superman has enough 4-B feats to be 4-B. Throwing a compressed Solar System was calculated to be around 6 Kilofoe iirc. And the Infinite Mass Punch is the strongest thing any Justice League members scale from regularly, and Matt calculated it to be around 619 Kilofoe. It's true shaking the solar system is only 5-A and that taking hits from the 50 Kepler Supernovas having the inverse square law would make it significantly lower than that. And it may be a fake black hole, but it's still implied to be able to engulf a solar system.

I think 4-B Post-Crisis Supes is good, but no higher than that for sure. But you could ask someone like PrinceoftheMorning, Matthew Schroeder, or Sandman31 for more input.
 
@DarkDragonMedeus

The gravity of compressed Sun was not even enough to tear Metropolis apart at that moment. It's definitely not Solar System level.
 
All that really means is that Superman was overpowering the force, not that the compressed solar system had so little force to begin with. Also, Destructive Capacity and Attack Potency are two widely different things. Fiction is full of characters whose best destruction feat is cutting through solid steel like butter, but have multiversal ratings because they canonically defeated someone on that level. Not saying the comparison here is anywhere near that level.

But still, energy yields take priority over the levels of destruction they actually cause.
 
This comprasion is meaningless, it's clearly stated on panel.

"Its Sun is growing, too, but there hasn't been time for its gravity to really start tearing Metropolis apart. Not yet."
 
AerrowStorm1, Firestorm, and DDM already answered the OP, there's not much more for me to add other than these two points:

  • The electromagnetic shock wave versus radiation bit in the Kepler supernova feat is quite clearly referring to the difference between a supernova's initial neutrino burst (which carries 99% of the supernova's energy), and the radiation, which escapes after. The writing's not stellar because his terminology is a little off but the reference is blatant.
  • The collision feat is actually incredibly lowballed as it stands, even taking into account Superman's star-sized body at the time.
Downgrading Superman is unnecessary and not happening, but OP and Ant are right that the justifications need updating.
 
So does anybody have some suggestions for how to update the justifications?
 
It should probably give an example or two of him harming characters with comparable durability to his own, because Superman's tier is based almost entirely on AP rather than impressive DC.
 
Okay. Suggestions would be appreciated.
 
A big change isn't really needed imo. For his AP, we should remove the mention of shaking the solar system and link a couple examples of characters that he's injured who have his level of durability. For example, Cyborg Superman and Doomsday. For his durability, leave it mostly as-is but include a note on the bottom of the page about the Kepler supernova feat that explains what the writing is referring to.
 
Using the Death of the New Gods feat whilst rejecting the storyline completely doesn't make sense to me. The whole thing took place in the Sphere of the Gods and the planets have been stated to be galaxy sized scaled up to the SotGs.
 
@POTM

Okay. Should we include any of the feats listed in the links above to his justifications?

Also, would you be willing to revise the page?
 
@Ant

I'm willing to do the alterations, sure. Or Firestorm, it doesn't really matter as this is fairly minor. I'll write the note for the bottom of the page though.

I recall Yobo saying he's doing a Post-Crisis Superman revision some time too.
 
Okay. Should I umlock the page for you now, or are there some other listed feats that should be added as well?
 
Can you unlock it now? For now, I'm not going to add any other feats, just remove the shaking feat and add links to Doomsday and Cyborg Superman to support the initial statement in his AP justification. Firestorm might have ideas whenever he gets back online, but for now the above should be fine.
 
Okay. Tell me here when you are done.
 
I do not know. Superman would also be vastly grown at the time.
 
The feat is legit but needs a recalc in the future since it ignores context. For now I'll remove it from the durability section. The section has plenty of other things anyway.
 
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