Superman (Red Son) downgrades

[Qawsedf234]

Current profile

Superman is listed as 5-B for surviving this 15 million miles radius explosion, however I think there's a major issue with this assumption.

• Luthor states that he calculated the results and determined that Superman would be to slow to escape

• This is said later on as well

• But then its stated by Superman that Luthor had messed up his math in regards to Superman's density, which would make him lighter

In other words I believe the pages heavily imply, if not just outright state, that due to this math error Superman was lighter (and therefore faster) than Lex originally thought. Which would allow him to escape Brainic's explosion.

Scaling to Monarch is also just not a good idea. Monarch is so casually above Superman that he can just gloat while no selling all of his attacks and consistently one shots him while holding back. Not to mention that he's rated at Low 2-C, so for Superman to be 5-B based off of scaling would be circular at best.

His new rating should be based off of his encounter with Earth-31 Superma. Who can casually output 7.5and 7.8 earthquakes, destroy meteors the size of Manhatta, and beat people explicitly physically better than himself.

So my proposed downgrades would be moving Red Son Superman from 5-B+ to either 7-B or High 6-C whichever fits better with the in-universe statement.

 

[Ionliosite]

We talked about it on Discord, so you know I agree.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

This seems to make sense to me.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I don't really know if this works as a proper debunking.

I mean, I see how the reasoning works, but I don't think the implications are as obvious as you're saying they are. It's been years since I read this story, so I could be missing something, but this is how it comes across to me:

In the first scan, Luthor claims Superman isn't fast enough to escape the explosion. Fair enough. In the second scan, Luthor claims that things had ended so perfectly one could almost be forgiven for thinking that the whole crazy turn of events had been worked out years ago. Okay. And then in the third scan, Superman says Luthor miscalculated his density. Fine.

...But couldn't that just mean that Luthor miscalculated Superman's density alone rather than miscalculating his speed? Luthor had been studying Superman for decades at this point in the story- all in an attempt to try and defeat him- so it would make sense that he had specs on every aspect of Superman's powers and physiology. Density and speed are not synonimous. In fact, "density" is pretty often used as a stand in for "durability" in Superman comics. Isn't it just possible that Luthor clocked Superman's top speed correctly but calculated his density incorrectly? In the last scan Superman sounds like he's commenting about how Luthor had gotten his density wrong and he was in fact durable enough to survive the explosion, despite being too slow to escape it. When working on a multi-faceted math problem with multiple unknowns like that, it's quite easy to get one factor wrong and another factor right. I feel like if Superman was simply fast enough to escape then he would have said Lex miscalculated his "speed" or his "peak velocity" or something of that nature. Not only would that be better at getting the idea across to a general audience, but how would Superman know which part of the equation equalling out to his speed Luthor had miscalculated? It seems like Occam's Razor would dictate it's a statement on durability. Unless, of course, I'm missing some extra context. Like I said, it's been years.

Not against scaling him to Earth-31 Superman if that's what people would prefer, but I don't think I agree with the debunking of this particular feat.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'll ask some others to comment, but before I do so what would the recommend tier be? Just the radiated waves or do we use total seismic energy due to the volcanos and tidal waves.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But couldn't that just mean that Luthor miscalculated Superman's density alone rather than miscalculating his speed?

It could, if it meant that Superman was heavier than he had planned. But dropping a decimal means that Luthor rounded the weight to a incorrect number. Which would also effect his speed.

Considering the same Superman lost to another one who's best feat is barely surviving a island wiping nuke and who's clone died to another large nuke I don't really see how 5-B has backing scaling wise or in-universe wise.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think the OP seems reasonable, and even if he did get hit by the explosion, I think Inverse Square law would make the feat not as impressive as the explosion calculation.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Well, yes. If you miscalculated something's density, it would affect your calculated speed for the item in question, but that assumes that Luthor calculated his speed by calculating his density first. It is entirely possible- for example- that Luthor calculated Superman's top speed by measuring how fast he flew while reacting to incidents and fighting his various monsters over the years. If that's the case, then his calculations for Superman's density could have been independent or even backtracked from his speed calculations. One number does not necessarily have to depend on the other if you do not know how the scientist was gathering his information.

And Red Son's fight against TDKR Superman hardly has any role in whether the discussed feat was based on durability or speed. Comics are often inconsistent, and that fight was written years later by a completely different author. You can scale Red Son to TDKR if you like, but it does not provide evidence that the above feat is less than 5-B. It just makes any 5-B feats outliers.

I still hold that if the narrative meant to imply Superman was faster than Luthor calculated, Superman would have said he miscalculated his "speed." Saying he miscalculated his "density" clearly encourages an association with durability.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You can scale Red Son to TDKR if you like, but it does not provide evidence that the above feat is less than 5-B. It just makes any 5-B feats outliers.

The main issue here is that the profile uses TDKR Superman as a major justifcation for AP and durability. It also uses Bizzaro as a justifcation for 5-B AP as well, despite both being killed or critcally wounded by much less.

I guess for a better tier maybe we can try and calc the Coldbringer missile and the nuke Bizzaro died to? Both seem like they'd go into the 7-A or 6-C range.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I can agree with that. Either TDKR Supes and Bizarro should be removed from his AP justification or the explosion he tanked should be removed from his justification, classified as an outlier, and he should be downgraded to 6-C.

Having all three to justify the same level is kind of nonsensical.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Actually, you know what? I just looked up the story, and I don't think Bizarro should be used on Red Son's profile at all, regardless of the changes made.

First of all, Bizarro only hit Superman once during that entire fight, and it did send Supes flying quite a ways , but Superman was distracted and it's unclear how effective the punch was, all things considered. Other than that, the fight was really one-sided . Superman even commented that Bizarro was a pretty poor imitation and paled in comparison to Luthor's later monsters... who Superman can still take down all at once by the end of the story.

Furthermore, even Lex Luthor himself claims Red Son Supes can "shrug off a nuclear strike ," but that's precisely the thing that kills Bizarro. I don't think there is particularly good evidence that Bizarro was on Red Son's level. Superman kind of just walks over him like most things in this comic.

 

[Antvasima]

So what should we scale from then?

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Like I mentioned before, I don't think there is anything particularly wrong with scaling from the bomb he apparently tanked in the final chapter. It provides the closest thing this story has to a numerical measurement of his near limits. There can be no doubt that Red Son fought on par with TDKR Superman in Countdown years later, but I question the legitimacy of using a pseudo-crossover by a different writer that occured years down the line to scale what was obviously originally designed as a self-contained character. That entire event was basically billed as a Superman battle royale, and they were all portrayed as rough equals, despite the diveristy of their original stories.

It's not like I'm incredibly passionate about this version of Superman, but if I could just do anything with his profile, I'd create a key for Red Son and a key for Countdown, basing both tiers solely off of feats from those series. It seems screwy to me for us to scale Red Son from a feat that occured in The Dark Knight Returns, when both were very clealy designed as disconnected, stand alone narratives.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Two keys or a downgrade are probably the go to. It was a main issue I had when I was thinking about adding a TDKR Superman profile.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Yeah, Countdown clearly didn't take different power level portrayals into consideration and just treated their Superman brawl as a "Superman = Superman" kind of thing, so I can understand how it might have been a real thorn in your side when trying to scale TDKR Supes.

 

[Ionliosite]

I guess for a better tier maybe we can try and calc the Coldbringer missile and the nuke Bizzaro died to? Both seem like they'd go into the 7-A or 6-C range.

I honestly think calcing this is the best thing we can scale Red Son to, since the feat he currently scales to is wrong. And I also think creating a second key for his Countdown appearance should be good.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

If we're going to make two keys, then the Red Son key should remove all mentions of fighting other Supermen, and Bizarro should only be mentioned in the sense that Superman scales far above him. An additional Countdown key should strive to determine the general output of Supermen in that storyline because they were all more or less equalized by the writer.

 

[Antvasima]

I am also fine with using two keys.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

In that case, I propose taking a page out of DCAU Superman's profile . Change Red Son's AP justification to "His power should be comparable to his durability," delete the Bizarro feat, and move the feat about fighting other Supermen to his Countdown key. The Countdown key should then either be given a tier based on events that ocurred in that story specifically or be given a tier based on scaling with characters that appear more frequently in the mainstream DC universe.

 

[Antvasima]

That seems fine, and he should only scale to other characters in that story.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Naturally. That should leave his first key in its current tier, but somebody will need to be given the dirty job of skimming through Countdown to determine the tier for his second key.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Oh, also, all current references to Monarch should scrubbed from Red Son's profile. We currently rate Monarch as Low 2-C, which means (unless I'm forgetting something really big) any power correlation between him and Red Son is either PIS or Monarch holding back.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Monarch was explicitly trying not to kill any of them in Countdown unless they forced him to. For the durability scaling I disagree. There's no evidence he punches hard enough to hurt himself and the DCAU page was supposed to have the 5-C AP rating removed as well. His best striking feat afaik is saying he could atomize a satellite with a punch, which falls in like with the Tier 7 scaling from Earth 31 Superman.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Well, again, I have not read the story in a very long time, but if Red Son never punches hard enough to hurt himself and never battles enemies capable of contending with him physically, then perhaps his AP should scale above Bizarro and leave it at that. Something like "At Least 7-A (Superior to Bizarro, Could atomize a satalite with one punch)." Scaling with other Supermen should stay in his Countdown key, though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I'm trying to remember a fight he didn't easily win or wasn't weakened. I know he rather easily stomped a weakened WW and the GL corps. For AP I think we either do

• Calcing the satellite (I can do it when I have the free time) to get energy needed to atomize it

• Drop the 5-B rating, making him MFTL based on TDKR Superman scaling, and move him to 7-B or 6-C.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Red Son is a relatively short story. I think between the bomb he tanks at the end and Luthor claiming he could shrug off a nuclear strike there just isn't good evidence that he should scale to TDKR Superman. I was more accepting of the idea when we first started discussing it, but the more we talk about it and the more I look into it, the more convinced I become that Countdown really just needs its own key. Supermen who were not at all implied to be comperable in their standalone stories were being equalized in that narrative years after the original stories had ended and without the original writers' input.

In regards to AP, if Red Son is never given a physical challenge throughout his original story, then we should find a quantifiable feat or two, calc it, and add the words "At Least" to the beginning of whatever tier that grants him. Depending on how casually it's done or how it compares to some of his unquantifiable feats, we should then consider whether or not a "Likely Higher" proviso is warranted as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

• Using IRL Sputnik 2 (which is smaller than the Red Son version) it has a volume of 4188790.204786400311 cm^3. Which would result in 129,233,393,156 joules or 8-B

• Using the main version of Post-Crisis Superman for a height basis (he's 190.5 cm officially). Image 1 and Image 2. I got a volume of 8,214,258.1528128ÔǼ cm^3 which would result in 253,427,935,382.211 joules or 8-B+
• A basic nuke calc : Y = ((x/0.28)^3)
• Y is in kilotons, x is radius in kilometers.
• Y = ((4.4589/0.28)^3)
• 4,038.4 kilotons or 4 megatons (7-B)

Nuke calc would need more work, but it probably fits with the 7-B stuff.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

That looks fine to me. This was pretty early in his career too. If the Bizarro feat scales, I think both could be used as justification for "At Least 7-B, Likely Higher" in the AP category.

 

[Qawsedf234]

So the options, since the other mods haven't reweighed:

• Keep the durabiity rating and move his AP to tier 8-B/8-A and add a 7-B key for Countdown

• Remove the 5-B rating and switch him to 7-B due to TDKR scaling

Also maybe add a MFTL rating once Superman: Year One finishes since he seemingly has a MFTL feat.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Ah, sorry. It looks like I misunderstood your original proposal.

Whatever Red Son's AP is, there should be an "At Least/Likely Higher" variable on the tier. He is objectively far more powerful than anything he ever faces in that story . His Countdown tier, however, should be scaled from Countdown alone. It should not be scaled from a feat that ocurred in The Dark Knight Returns. It should be scaled from a feat that ocurrs in Countdown.

The primary problem here is that the Countdown argument could be swung either way if left to its own devices. You could say "See, this is evidence that Red Son is 7-B! He was hurt by blows from TDKR Superman! The Brainiac tanking and nuke tanking were outliers!" or you could say "See, this is evidence TDKR Superman is 5-B! He can hurt Red Son Superman! The nuke nearly killing him was an outlier!" But neither of these solutions are preferable (especially considering I have a hunch they both probably fight with a few other variously powered characters during the Countdown event).

The Countdown crossover should be treated as its own thing. We should not be scaling these standalone, author-driven, Elseworld Superman across their fairly isolated continuities. Any Countdown tiers for either character should either be based on events that ocurred exclusively in Countdown or based on interactions they had with mainstream DC Universe characters during the event. We have good reason to believe that the Supermen taken for that storyline were just treated as equals without much consideration for the feats that occured in their standalone series, so scaling those interactions from feats that did occur in their standalone stories doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem is that I do not think that there are any feats to scale him from in Countdown, but I suppose that we could strictly use his own Elseworlds story, ignore anything else, and add a footnote explanation about it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But neither of these solutions are preferable (especially considering I have a hunch they both probably fight with a few other variously powered characters during the Countdown event).

The Supermen's onky physical matches in Countdown were themselves and Monarch. The mere act of TDKR Superman moving forward was enough to physically exhaust three different Wonder Women and two Captain Atoms. The only scaling that exists in that story is Monarch casually stomping them and them fighting each other.

Considering the story is ultimately canon, the 5-B explosion can aruged as not actually being a durability feat, and TDKR Superman's feats are consistently Tier 7 the only counter arugment I see is "Well its possible he survived this thing billions of times above his other feats".

 

[ClassicNESfan]

It's not just possible. It's basically flat-out stated and used as the final feat in the story. I reread the ending yesterday, and in the fuller context, I'm even more sure that they were not remotely suggesting he outpaced the explosion. He's also said to be capable of shrugging off a nuclear blast, and he is far above Bizarro and other more powerful villains who should at least be close to the Tier 7 range on their own.

There is just no reason for us to believe that Mark Millar was writing him as Tier 7 or that Keith Champagne was doing anything other than equalizing the various Supermen during his representation of the character several years later. TDKR exhausting three Wonder Woman and two Captain Atoms at once is indicative of that. All those characters would have to be significantly weaker than their average portrayals- even in Elseworld stories- for that to work... unless Keith was just not scaling TDRK from his original feats. Whether those stories are ultimately canon to the multiverse or not, these Elseworld titles are generally treated as author-driven stories by DC. It would be basically unheard of for Scott Snyder to write the next entry in The Dark Knight Returns or for Michael Bendis to write a Red Son: Part II. Those universes are treated as exclusive playgrounds for the original authors, and I think we should reflect that in their profiles by not cross-pollinating too much. Their appearances elsewhere act as little more than cameos and fan service due to their fame as revolutionary stories. Even Grant Morrison famously stopped referencing The Dark Knight Rises in his multiverse when Frank Miller wasn't happy about it. The feats from their original stories should take precidence here. I'd much rather go with Ant's suggestion before scaling these characters across continuities that were clearly designed to be independent of each other.

 

[Qawsedf234]

He's also said to be capable of shrugging off a nuclear blast, and he is far above Bizarro and other more powerful villains who should be close to the Tier 7 range on their own.

Shrugging off a Tier 7 attack doesn't justify a 5-B+ rating. Neither does easily defeating a Tier 7 (which he doesn't even technically do since Bizzaro has no Tier 7 feats)

Whether those stories are ultimately canon to the multiverse or not, these Elseworld titles are generally treated as author-driven stories by DC.

We have other Elseworlds like Kingdom Come and Old Man Logan who cross over and are scaled to their main universe counterparts. I don't see why Countdown should be ignored when in-universe and on site similar stuff has happened before.

 

[Antvasima]

This is true.

I am neutral about the cross-universe scaling, but suppose that it is probably fine as long as there is a separate statistics key.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I never implied it meant his AP should stay at 5-B. Like I said yesterday, you made a good argument by pointing out that he never hurts himself or fights anything on his level. Red Son's peak AP is unclear throughout the entire story, but his durability is not. It's blatantly above Tier 7 and likely only higher than the final explosion in the comic by a degree of ten. I do not agree with scaling his durability off of a feat done in a completely different Elseworlds story, written by a completely different author, when it directly contradicts feats and statements from his original narrative.

The crossover between Kingdom Come and the Justice Society is different because it was written by the original creator of the Kingdom Come storyline and pains were clearly taken to make it canon within the broader context of the original story. Alex Ross and Mark Waid were much more enthusiastic and accepting of their universe mixing in with the rest of DC. They played a pivitol role in its crossover with the main universe, and as a result, there are less inconsistencies between each portrayal of their characters. Notice for example how Kingdom Come goes out of its way to tell us that Superman is now much stronger than he was as a young adult, kryptonite is basically ineffective against him, and magic is now his only real weakness, but he's developing a resistence to it as well. This is basically identical to how he is portrayed when crossing over with the mainstream DC Universe (more powerful than mainstream Superman, unaffected by kryptonite, resilient against magic), and that's because this appearance is endorsed and written by the original creator. Meanwhile, when we try to scale TDKR and Red Son across their various unendorsed appearances, we end up having a long discussion about the numerous inconsistencies it creates. My opinion on this would be very different you were trying to scale off of a Red Son/TDKR crossover that was a collaborative project by Mark Millar and Frank Miller, mostly consistent with their original stories and purposefully placed at a point in their respective timelines where it could have occurred in the original canons without issue.

Old Man Logan is also different because it was published by a completely different company, and the Mark Miller/Brian Hitch contribution may have never even had the Elseworld-style priviso of being treated as a standalone creator-driven project in the first place. That being said, if the feats between the original Old Man Logan and his reappearance during Battle World are really contradictory enough, I would not be opposed to creating two separate keys for him as well.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You make good points, but ultimately I'm on the side that the feat is either an outlier or not a durability feat. If the other mods who commented are fine with two keys then I'll be fine with two keys. I'll submit the satellite thing later for a calc review so it can be used as a AP justifcation/supplementary evidence.

 

[Antvasima]

Using two keys is probably harmless. I agree with Qawsedf otherwise though.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I suppose it can't be helped. If we have nothing better to scale the Countdown appearance to, then there are only so many options available. A second key should be fine, but I still submit that the AP on his Red Son key should be listed as "At Least [Satellite Calc], Likely Higher" considering how far Superman scales above everything in that story. I'm sorry that I can't offer better options. I don't mean to come across as lazy or stubborn. I would reread Red Son myself (and maybe even Countdown) to try to pose a better solution, but I find myself kind of swamped with work at the moment.