DCAU - Superman Revisions

[Qawsedf234]

swore Superman's flown into space without a suit in Justice League before

Then only one I really remember was in the episode with the BFG. But even then it's far more common that he requires oxygen or assistance rather rather fly solo.

Either way we shouldn't be scaling his AP to his durability.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

While true, the movie also breaks other DCAU norms like Superman flying in space with no protection/oxygen and moving faster than light according to the calc.

Superman doesn't need air, he just thinks he does. When he deflected that asteroid, he didn't have a breathing mask or any sort of oxygen, he just flew up into space. That or maybe he just has it to communicate with others, I'm not really sure. Point is though, there have been showings that he doesn't need oxygen.

 

[Hellbeast]

I think it's less he doesn't need oxygen buyt that he can survive without it for short periods
Pretty much everytime he's in space without a mask it's for short periods in emergencies

Also do we consider stuff like the Superman Adventures/New Batman Adventures canon? If so I think Supes has a really good feat for his Heat Vision

 

[CBslayeR]

Pretty sure the reason he even has suits in the first place is because they wanted to sell toys

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Oh yeah, I also wanna say this feat here would actually fall in-line with Electricity Manipulation.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Bump

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Oh yeah, Superman should probably get SoL Heat Vision because of its laser-like properties

 

[CBslayeR]

Isn't it also consistent with SoL Green Lantern constructs

 

[Hellbeast]

Oh yeah, Superman should probably get SoL Heat Vision because of its laser-like properties

I'd need more evience to fit the criteria but it's certainly possible

Isn't it also consistent with SoL Green Lantern constructs

It would be, not sure how that could be calced

 

[Fireld]

I'd need more evience to fit the criteria but it's certainly possible

-Reflect off mirrors
-It's solar powered
-Doesn't have any of the 3 disqualifiers

-Low tiers like Luminous mentions lasers are made out of light(which were reflected with metal by a depowered Superman) & Stargirl refers to her beams as sparkles. Mid tiers such as Livewire straight up called herself LS; Star Saphhire & Green Lanterns' beams scale to Sinestro's LS statement and the Manhunters, who were created by the Guardians as the Green Lanterns' predecessors, could match Green Lantern's rays with his own energy attack. At this point, why can't a high tier like Superman have LS Heat Vision, if lowered tiers can have projectiles at that level?

 

[Fireld]

The closest thing it I believe it really has in common with the main comic continuity is a shared Mxy. I say that because our current quote for Mainstream DC Comics Mxy comes from a comic that specifically mentions the DCAU and was penned by the AU's lead creative influences.

Not that it matters much here but in the animated show there's also Mxy's girlfriend showing evidence for Mxy's psychology, she summons a copy of issue 80 action comics, meaning more proof for animated Mxy=comics Mxy

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Found some resistances to Ice Manip for Supes, and added it.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Oh yeah, here's more evidence that Superman doesn't need to breathe, prolonged time underwater.

 

[Fireld]

Found some resistances to Ice Manip for Supes, and added it.

Another resistance feat for Supes & Flash. Also not just Superman's flying & reactions scale to a supressed/casual Flash, but also his running speed.

 

[Hellbeast]

-Reflect off mirrors

I'd need instances specifically but I recall him doing this to shave

-It's solar powered

That's not a criteria I believe

-Doesn't have any of the 3 disqualifiers

-Low tiers like Luminous mentions lasers are made out of light(which were reflected with metal by a depowered Superman)

This would definitely be good for Luminous if he fits the criteria himself (especially since this is a relatively inexperienced Supes yes?)

& Stargirl refers to her beams as sparkles.

?

Mid tiers such as Livewire straight up called herself LS;

This would be hyperbolic but the consistency is there I guess so we could argue it

Star Saphhire & Green Lanterns' beams scale to Sinestro's LS statement and the Manhunters, who were created by the Guardians as the Green Lanterns' predecessors, could match Green Lantern's rays with his own energy attack. At this point, why can't a high tier like Superman have LS Heat Vision, if lowered tiers can have projectiles at that level?

Mostly because you;d need to go case by case but there certainly is evidence for it I think

 

[Fireld]

I'd need instances specifically but I recall him doing this to shave

It was posted before in this thread by sb else so didn't feel the need for repost

That's not a criteria I believe

His powers come from the Sun's light, so wouldn't it make sense for Heat Vision to have similiar his powersource?

This would definitely be good for Luminous if he fits the criteria himself (especially since this is a relatively inexperienced Supes yes?)

Inexpirienced(Episode 24 of his own show named Solar Power)+depowered(In the beginning of the episode he was so weakened that he could barely move a big rock & his heat vision became harmless thanks to Red Sun Radiation. Just before fighting Luminous for the last time[where the laser feat takes place] Professor Hamilton said Superman was almost powerless.), so slowwer than usual. There's also the fact that Luminios isn't that relavent of a villain, when he has only 2 epsiode as a main villain pretty early on & the rest are just cameos. Also he used to work for Lexcorp, so maybe Luthor's tech could scale to his.

?

Sparkles can mean "a glittering flash of light" & Stargirl appeared in the Justice League Unilimited Era where LS isn't that rare. Also Supergirl has a feat of intercepting her beam & she has reacted to Livewire aswell.

This would be hyperbolic but the consistency is there I guess so we could argue it

Superman casually intercepted cloud to ground lightning yet sometimes Supes has trouble dodging her attacks & unlike with Luminous, Superman wasn't depowered in those cases. Also her claim came from her second appearance, Double Dose. Between her debut episode & this episode; people have been researching her powers, so her words aren't really that baseless.

Mostly because you;d need to go case by case but there certainly is evidence for it I think

The Sinestro statement is already mentioned in their pages & used for scaling. Grean Lanterns, Star Saphhire & Sinestro's powers work the same, they have beam clashes with each other & dodged each others attacks(proving they have the same speed), they have been reflected by metalic object like WW's braccelets(which have shown to conduct electricity & heat before just like real metal) & Hawkgirl's mace(the profile metions they have been reflected by mirrors too but i don't remember when). The Manhunters were made by the people who created the GL Corp for a simular porpuse & had a beam clash with GL like i showed in my other comment. Superman has dodged rays from them & is generally protryed as above. What proof do we need more?

 

[Hellbeast]

It was posted before in this thread by sb else so didn't feel the need for repost

His powers come from the Sun's light, so wouldn't it make sense for Heat Vision to have similiar his powersource?

I wouldn't say so since we don't tend to equate powersource with abilities like that to my knowledge and it feels shakier compared to toher evidence you could be using

Inexpirienced(Episode 24 of his own show named Solar Power)+depowered(In the beginning of the episode he was so weakened that he could barely move a big rock & his heat vision became harmless thanks to Red Sun Radiation. Just before fighting Luminous for the last time[where the laser feat takes place] Professor Hamilton said Superman was almost powerless.), so slowwer than usual. There's also the fact that Luminios isn't that relavent of a villain, when he has only 2 epsiode as a main villain pretty early on & the rest are just cameos. Also he used to work for Lexcorp, so maybe Luthor's tech could scale to his.

Hmm that could be interesting scaling
Lex could get scaling from Luminous but I'm unaware of whether he managed to duplicate Luminous' technology in any meaningful way

Sparkles can mean "a glittering flash of light" & Stargirl appeared in the Justice League Unilimited Era where LS isn't that rare. Also Supergirl has a feat of intercepting her beam & she has reacted to Livewire aswell.

This is far too vague imo

The Sinestro statement is already mentioned in their pages & used for scaling. Grean Lanterns, Star Saphhire & Sinestro's powers work the same, they have beam clashes with each other & dodged each others attacks(proving they have the same speed), they have been reflected by metalic object like WW's braccelets(which have shown to conduct electricity & heat before just like real metal) & Hawkgirl's mace(the profile metions they have been reflected by mirrors too but i don't remember when).

I would compile a list of these instances since that is definitely very good evidence

The Manhunters were made by the people who created the GL Corp for a simular porpuse & had a beam clash with GL like i showed in my other comment. Superman has dodged rays from them & is generally protryed as above. What proof do we need more?

 

[Fireld]

I wouldn't say so since we don't tend to equate powersource with abilities like that to my knowledge and it feels shakier compared to toher evidence you could be using

This is far too vague imo

Meh ok. I'll use more like back/minor support rather than main evidence.
Why no response on the Livewie argument?

Hmm that could be interesting scaling
Lex could get scaling from Luminous but I'm unaware of whether he managed to duplicate Luminous' technology in any meaningful way

This makes the Batman tier characters in the Justice League & Beyond Era having poential sub-relativistic reflexes more realistic.
I would be suprised if he didn't. Lex kept contact with Luminous even after the later got improsoned. Lex is noted as one of the smartest characters(even someone with Grodd's ego could acknowlede this) & a level 11th intellect. I think he mentions to Supes that he's behind all of the technological advancement in Metropolis.

I would compile a list of these instances since that is definitely very good evidence

I've listed some instances when people reacting to lantern rays & more feats with potential.

 

[JohnConquest1]

Lantern rays also kept up with the Flash when he took his quick little jog to the sun, so Sinestros LS claim isn't out there.
Again to also reiterate this would even scale to people on Statics level.

Also the Superman Mirror fear comes from Mxy's debut episode in STAS.

We never see Lex interact with Luminous on screen. Hell Lex has more scenes with the lowly Doctor Destiny than he does Luminous probably.

Also speaking of Mr.Nightmare Destiny needs to have an anesthetic needle in his standard equipment. He uses one in the only real world fight he participates in.

 

[JohnConquest1]

Honestly should just make a Sinestro profile at this point just for completions sake.

 

[Fireld]

Lantern rays also kept up with the Flash when he took his quick little jog to the sun, so Sinestros LS claim isn't out there.

Ah yeah that too. Pretty sure that feat was slightly faster than light too

Again to also reiterate this would even scale to people on Statics level.

I include Static in the Batman Tier characters

We never see Lex interact with Luminous on screen.

Luthor has dialogue to imply that he has interacted with him offiscreen. Also when Luminus holograms say "Well, we might be only made of light, but so are laser", like they talking about laser in general, not that his are more more special than other lasers.

Hell Lex has more scenes with the lowly Doctor Destiny than he does Luminous probably.

He only talks to Luthor on-screen in a fan-boy dream sequence & the rest are just cameos

 

[JohnConquest1]

Interact being he's had more on screen appearances with Luthor thanks to to his Legion of Doom membership.

Also speaking of that didn't Lex Amp some Legion members abilities through tech?

 

[Dark-Carioca]

The volcano calc's been approved, feel free to apply it whenever you can.

 

[JohnConquest1]

Who should we apply the volcano calc to though besides Superman/Doomsday? believe that's something worth discussing seeing how some characters down scale and up scale from his Tier 7 stuff.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Anyone who's managed to hurt or overpower that Superman, so the Darkseid Brainiac fusion, Grundy w/Chaos Magic... There are quite a few characters who would scale, I know that much...

 

[JohnConquest1]

Off the top of my head
Should probably have no issues:
Darkseid (all forms)
Brainiacs' strongest bodies
Hades [He literally slapped Superman once and Supes was out cold.]
Felix Faust (Annihilator) [Hades had trouble with this thing.]
Justice Lord Superman [Needs an entire rewrite or deletion though honestly]
Luthoriac
Mongul
A.M.A.Z.O. (Pre Evolved)
Karkull
Grundy (Post Resurrection)
Flash (All Out)
Draaga

Anything else I'd probably be iffy about though. Even Draaga, Karkull, and Mongul might be pushing it a little so I'd like to hear more first.

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

The volcano calc's been approved, feel free to apply it whenever you can.

Which end of it are we using?

 

[PapiSavitar5025]

Off the top of my head
Should probably have no issues:
Darkseid (all forms)
Brainiacs' strongest bodies
Hades [He literally slapped Superman once and Supes was out cold.]
Felix Faust (Annihilator) [Hades had trouble with this thing.]
Justice Lord Superman [Needs an entire rewrite or deletion though honestly]
Luthoriac
Mongul
A.M.A.Z.O. (Pre Evolved)
Karkull
Grundy (Post Resurrection)
Flash (All Out)
Draaga

Anything else I'd probably be iffy about though. Even Draaga, Karkull, and Mongul might be pushing it a little so I'd like to hear more first.

Darkseid makes sense
Not too sure about Brainiac, iirc Superman just kinda punches through him whenever he gets the chance to fight back. That's probably just his dura though, AP might scale.
I guess I'd say Hades is fine, though knocking Superman down with a single blow isn't anything new to the DCAU though, happened often early in JL.
Annihilator's fine
Lord Superman works too.
Luthoriac is fine.
I'd say Mongul is fine too, he took one helluva barrage from an angered Superman, and Wonder Woman hurt her hands just by punching him.
AMAZO is probably fine, though. It actually brings up a point, should anyone whose shown comparable to Superman before JLU scale? Amazo scales to OG JL Supes.
Karkull was in S:TAS so he only scales to Superman's meteor feat.
Grundy w/ Chaos Magic scales above, so that's fine.
All Out Flash scales.
I'm a little iffy about Draaga too, he only seems to have gotten the upper hand through trickery, and a Superman who really didn't want to fight. Whenever he got serious, he just kind of man-handled Draaga until he relaxed and got hit again. I would say Draaga only scales above the meteor feat though, he did make a good mess of Supes' face.

 

[JohnConquest1]

I guess I'd say Hades is fine, though knocking Superman down with a single blow isn't anything new to the DCAU though, happened often early in JL.

I'm aware of how much of a punching bag Supes is in JL Season 1 but out of all the people he got manhandled by in that Season Hades is the most reasonable person he lost to given context.

Agree with cutting Karkull and Draga.

Mongul makes sense considering that too I guess.

I don't think Morgan does anything related to Supes barring the episode she makes him a kid so yeah. just covering the other Tier 7 that isn't his teammates, who outside of All out Flash should not scale to this.

Brainiac when he possessed Luthor was strong enough to restrain and nearly digitize JLU Superman (And the rest of the League.). Maybe once I get around to adding that form to his (Brainiac's) profile it'd be more reasonable.

 

[Hellbeast]

Who should we apply the volcano calc to though besides Superman/Doomsday? believe that's something worth discussing seeing how some characters down scale and up scale from his Tier 7 stuff

I'm fairly certain the Fatal Five in the JLU film would at least backscale to this since that is solidly after the show
If we make profiles for the characters from Infinity the Alternate Superman would certainly scale

 

[JohnConquest1]

Just focusing on who we have profiles for atm.

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Which end of it are we using?

KLOL says on-screen feat so he probably means the real speed, not the average eruption speed I used. Thus, Continent level.

 

[Hellbeast]

What

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Though if people prefer it, we could always say "At least Island level, possibly Continent level"

 

[Qawsedf234]

Though if people prefer it, we could always say "At least Island level, possibly Continent level"

Superman wasn't exposed to the full brunt of the Volcanic Explosion. A better rating would be finding what the BFG is since that's something Superman took as a concentrated attack that he would probably scale to, although it knocked him out.

 

[Hellbeast]

Hmm that could help since it's a limitation for him
Do we know any good feats for those solidly below Clark? Like Diana

 

[Dark-Carioca]

Superman wasn't exposed to the full brunt of the Volcanic Explosion

No but he is able to damage Doomsday who tanked that, the feat isn't about Superman surviving that explosion after all.

 

[JohnConquest1]

Edited list of who likely scales to the volcano calc AP from our current profiles:
Darkseid (Both forms)
Hades
Felix Faust (/w Annihilator)
Justice Lord Superman
Mongul
Luthoriac
A.M.A.Z.O. (Pre Evolution)
Grundy (Post Resurrection)
Flash (All Out)

Possibly:
Brainiacs' strongest bodies
Brainiac when possessing Luthor (Not on Brainiacs' profile yet, but I have it pretty much done in a sandbox.)

 

[ByAsura]

I’ve actually been planning on downgrading Superman main feats for a while.

Should I just do it here? We seem to be supplanting them anyway.

 

[Hellbeast]

If you want