Super Sonic vs Asriel

[LaserPrecision]

Because it is not enough to determine how fast it is when it is obviously just an effect that is supposed to show he is taking the entire underground souls

Well sad news but asriel has no other starting move against enemies expect for soul absorbtion. The only reason they didn't absorb frisk and go on to destroy the timelines was because of what I explained earlier. It is not fair to assume asriel would have the same thought against a random ass blue hedgehog

But wouldn't he surprised for like a second or something? How big is the BFR range btw? Last but not least can't asriel load back?

You're making the assertion that since we haven't seen Asriel absorb one soul that it has to be instant. You can't make that claim without proof. If all we've seen is him taking time to do it, then we can ONLY assume it takes some amount of time.

No, FLOWEYS starting move is absorbing souls. And that's not even always the case. He had hundreds of resets before where he didn't absorb souls. He absorbed souls in the pacifist route because it was the perfect opportunity and wanted to complete his goal of destroying the timelines. There's zero reasons to assume Asriel starts with that when he believes he already has all the power he needs.

Of course he'd be surprised. But the time it takes him to realize he's paralyzed is negligible. He'd just think and Asriel would poof away. Also yes, Asriel COULD return from the bfr, but that's only possible if his range was comparable. Sonic scales to one of the biggest 2-B structures on the site from what I recall. Scaling super far (I believe layers into) countless universes. Meaning Asriel couldn't return from BFR.

 

[ShionAH]

You're making the assertion that since we haven't seen Asriel absorb one soul that it has to be instant. You can't make that claim without proof. If all we've seen is him taking time to do it, then we can ONLY assume it takes some amount of time.

Fair.

No, FLOWEYS starting move is absorbing souls. And that's not even always the case. He had hundreds of resets before where he didn't absorb souls. He absorbed souls in the pacifist route because it was the perfect opportunity and wanted to complete his goal of destroying the timelines. There's zero reasons to assume Asriel starts with that when he believes he already has all the power he needs.

No. Asriel like I said didn't absorb frisk and continue because of the whole story and plot, since he has no idea what the enemy is he will just absorb them and call it a day. Theres literally zero reason why asriel won't absorb sonic and go on with his day if he has no idea who they are. I just don't believe why asriel wouldn't absorb sonic since IC thats the first thing he did after getting 6 souls and has no reason not to against sonic since sonic is not his best friend. Flowey only absorbed everyone because he had the 6 human souls AND everyone in his hand so his plan was going perfect. Only reason he didn't in neutral route was because he couldn't get the boss monsters AND he couldn't defeat frisk with 6 souls

Of course he'd be surprised. But the time it takes him to realize he's paralyzed is negligible. He'd just think and Asriel would poof away. Also yes, Asriel COULD return from the bfr, but that's only possible if his range was comparable. Sonic scales to one of the biggest 2-B structures on the site from what I recall. Scaling super far (I believe layers into) countless universes. Meaning Asriel couldn't return from BFR.

SAVE and LOAD? Wouldn't that just put asriel back to place and let him absorb sonic?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Fair.

No. Asriel like I said didn't absorb frisk and continue because of the whole story and plot, since he has no idea what the enemy is he will just absorb them and call it a day. Theres literally zero reason why asriel won't absorb sonic and go on with his day if he has no idea who they are. I just don't believe why asriel wouldn't absorb sonic since IC thats the first thing he did after getting 6 souls and has no reason not to against sonic since sonic is not his best friend. Flowey only absorbed everyone because he had the 6 human souls AND everyone in his hand so his plan was going perfect. Only reason he didn't in neutral route was because he couldn't get the boss monsters AND he couldn't defeat frisk with 6 souls

SAVE and LOAD? Wouldn't that just put asriel back to place and let him absorb sonic?

First, sorry for the awkward responses. I'm on mobile rn, so my structuring is all eff'd up.

Second, again, no. You're extrapolating Flowey who's plan was going perfectly and NEEDED that power in order to be able to face someone like Frisk + The Underground to Asriel who had become a god with what he believes to be ultimate power. He's not going to think he needs Sonic's power and instead just try to kill him (which is more in line with his personality and is possible since Sonic cant resist his soul being hit). I'm not gonna extrapolate FLOWEYS personality and current predicament to Asriel. Even if u wanted to argue Asriel in character decides to soul absorb people he believes is fodder to him (which is dishonest IMO), that argument still doesn't work as Asriel was enjoying flexing his power and could've simply reset Frisk after absorbing their soul.

save abd load won't work due to its range being far shorter than Sonic's bfr range from what I know of how it works.

 

[ShionAH]

Second, again, no. You're extrapolating Flowey who's plan was going perfectly and NEEDED that power in order to be able to face someone like Frisk + The Underground to Asriel who had become a god with what he believes to be ultimate power. He's not going to think he needs Sonic's power and instead just try to kill him (which is more in line with his personality and is possible since Sonic cant resist his soul being hit). I'm not gonna extrapolate FLOWEYS personality and current predicament to Asriel. Even if u wanted to argue Asriel in character decides to soul absorb people he believes is fodder to him (which is dishonest IMO), that argument still doesn't work as Asriel was enjoying flexing his power and could've simply reset Frisk after absorbing their soul.

The problem is he won't have any reason to mock or attack sonic in anyway. If he wanted to do that he would grab the 6 souls fight the entire ground while mocking them but no he just absorbed them and gained all the power after that the ONLY reason he didn't absorb frisk was like I said because he saw frisk as his friend. He has no reason to not to absorb sonic and go on with his day like I said. Pretty sure other people also use absorbtion as his starting move since the only time he didn't do it was against frisk and only frisk.

Resets won't work due to its range being far shorter than Sonic's bfr range

They have range? I thought it just bringed you pack to your save file

 

[LaserPrecision]

The problem is he won't have any reason to mock or attack sonic in anyway. If he wanted to do that he would grab the 6 souls fight the entire ground while mocking them but no he just absorbed them and gained all the power after that the ONLY reason he didn't absorb frisk was like I said because he saw frisk as his friend. He has no reason to not to absorb sonic and go on with his day like I said. Pretty sure other people also use absorbtion as his starting move since the only time he didn't do it was against frisk and only frisk.

They have range? I thought it just bringed you pack to your save file

I understand where you're coming from but I still disagree. First because not even Flowey immediately goes for soul absorption like I mentioned earlier. He did over a hundred runs and didn't always go for soul absorption. So it's clearly not an ordinary starting move. Second, Flowey ONLY wanted to absorb the Souls to gain the power to destroy timelines. Not just for the same of doing it. He gained the power to destroy timelines upon becoming Asriel Dreeumur and thus no longer has a reason to immediately go for it anyway. Third, the excuse he did t use it against Frisk because he reminded them of Chra or whatever doesn't work since he could simply just load to before he absorbed their soul to showcase his power (as he did throughout the fight), meaning he simply was actively choosing to not use it since its not an opening move. Even if we ignored ALL of that, it still takes longer than Sonic's BFR.

I assume it has range. It would be kinda unfair to assume otherwise, cus than u could just say they can neg any BFR including outerversal range BFR which seems like a NLF to me personally.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Shame of you to assume that Load has range

 

[ShionAH]

I understand where you're coming from but I still disagree. First because not even Flowey immediately goes for soul absorption like I mentioned earlier. He did over a hundred runs and didn't always go for soul absorption. So it's clearly not an ordinary starting move. Second, Flowey ONLY wanted to absorb the Souls to gain the power to destroy timelines. Not just for the same of doing it. He gained the power to destroy timelines upon becoming Asriel Dreeumur and thus no longer has a reason to immediately go for it anyway. Third, the excuse he did t use it against Frisk because he reminded them of Chra or whatever doesn't work since he could simply just load to before he absorbed their soul to showcase his power (as he did throughout the fight), meaning he simply was actively choosing to not use it since its not an opening move. Even if we ignored ALL of that, it still takes longer than Sonic's BFR.

I think like I said you are ignoring the fact that Asriel has no reason to not absorb sonic. He had reasons and plot to not absorb frisk because you know chara stuff. Against sonic he will just see sonic and go bam and absorb him since he has no reason to fight sonic. Explained why asriel didn't absorb frisk. Would EE work on sonic btw?

I assume it has range. It would be kinda unfair to assume otherwise, cus than u could just say they can neg any BFR including outerversal range BFR which seems like a NLF to me personally.

I mean it isnt teleportation its literally just time manipulation so he will go back to the time he wasn't BFR'ed.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Shame of you to assume that Load has range

That just came out of nowhere

 

[LaserPrecision]

I think like I said you are ignoring the fact that Asriel has no reason to not absorb sonic. He had reasons and plot to not absorb frisk because you know chara stuff. Against sonic he will just see sonic and go bam and absorb him since he has no reason to fight sonic. Explained why asriel didn't absorb frisk. Would EE work on sonic btw?

I mean it isnt teleportation its literally just time manipulation so he will go back to the time he wasn't BFR'ed.

I'm not the biggest fan of the "why wouldn't he?" argument. Like you could use it to favor any argument. Why wouldn't he try to blast Sonic to death? See what I mean? I explained why. It's not Asriels magnum opus. It's something he uses in character but isn't the first thing he does. The Frisk argument doesn't work either for reasons explained in my previous argument. There was zero remififations to use it on Frisk since he could simply undo it afterwards.

I'm aware it's not teleportation, but like, I assume the wiki applies a limit to it. I dot see a reason to believe Asriel can load into ANYWHERE without limits. Cuz again, that would mean for example he could just neg outerversal BFR, or any BFR range for that matter which seems like a NLF as far as I'm aware

 

[ShionAH]

I'm not the biggest fan of the "why wouldn't he?" argument. Like you could use it to favor any argument. Why wouldn't he try to blast Sonic to death? See what I mean? I explained why. It's not Asriels magnum opus. It's something he uses in character but isn't the first thing he does. The Frisk argument doesn't work either for reasons explained in my previous argument. There was zero remififations to use it on Frisk since he could simply undo it afterwards.

I am also not the biggest fan of making the character use their weaker moves to attack a random ass character they have no idea of. I just cannot see asriel normally fighting sonic and not just absorbing him and other asriel matches use the same opening move if I am correct.

I'm aware it's not teleportation, but like, I assume the wiki applies a limit to it. I dot see a reason to believe Asriel can load into ANYWHERE without limits. Cuz again, that would mean for example he could just neg outerversal BFR, or any BFR range for that matter which seems like a NLF as far as I'm aware

He cannot load anywhere but he can load to the last place he was at to his save file

 

[LaserPrecision]

Shame of you to assume that Load has range

Isn't that like the default practice of like any move ever? If I showed a character with the identical ability to load back to any place on earth he wants, would you assume that if he were bfr'd to a higher dimension that he could just load back? I'd assume we have to place some limitation on it. After all, in game he can only load into timelines within reach (aka in the save files).

 

[ShionAH]

Isn't that like the default practice of like any move ever? If I showed a character with the identical ability to load back to any place on earth he wants, would you assume that if he were bfr'd to a higher dimension that he could just load back? I'd assume we have to place some limitation on it. After all, in game he can only load into timelines within reach (aka in the save files).

sonic bfrs to higher dimensions?

 

[LaserPrecision]

I am also not the biggest fan of making the character use their weaker moves to attack a random ass character they have no idea of. I just cannot see asriel normally fighting sonic and not just absorbing him and other asriel matches use the same opening move if I am correct.

He cannot load anywhere but he can load to the last place he was at to his save file

We can't just assume all characters in a fight start with their win-con cuz we like it tho. It needs to be in character which I explained isn't for Asriel several times above.

No no, I understand not literally anywhere, that was an exaggeration since they COULD load anywhere, but would first need to save there.

 

[LaserPrecision]

sonic bfrs to higher dimensions?

No that was just an example since you guys were saying it has no range limitation whatsoever. I disagreed and thus used that example to show why that can't be. I mean, the very fact that only have access to a finite amount of save files at a time is proof that it has range

 

[ShionAH]

We can't just assume all characters in a fight start with their win-con cuz we like it tho. It needs to be in character which I explained isn't for Asriel several times above.

Oh I looked at other asriel matches and everyone seems to agree with the soul absorbtion opening move. I also learned how the absorbing works he basically sends the while flash to everywhere in the underground and absorbs them instantly

No no, I understand not literally anywhere, that was an exaggeration since they COULD load anywhere, but would first need to save there.

No that was just an example since you guys were saying it has no range limitation whatsoever. I disagreed and thus used that example to show why that can't be. I mean, the very fact that only have access to a finite amount of save files at a time is proof that it has range

I don't think it is infinite ranged. But it is pretty large since its basically time manipulation to your last position and worked in timeless places before.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Oh I looked at other asriel matches and everyone seems to agree with the soul absorbtion opening move. I also learned how the absorbing works he basically sends the while flash to everywhere in the underground and absorbs them instantly


I don't think it is infinite ranged. But it is pretty large since its basically time manipulation to your last position and worked in timeless places before.

If that's true, I think they're being dishonest. Asriel starting with soul absorption is as honest as saying Shadow starts with BFR/Sealing in every fight.

I'm pretty sure it wasn't instant from what I recalled. I recall the screen flashing for a while before he fully absorbed all the souls. Not just an instant flash and he instantly became Asriel. Pretty sure it was drawn out.

I agree, not infinite, but large. But only as large as Asriels range. Which is in 2-B, but not close to as far into 2-B as Sonic is.

 

[ShionAH]

If that's true, I think they're being dishonest. Asriel starting with soul absorption is as honest as saying Shadow starts with BFR/Sealing in every fight.

Asriel has no other move against someone he has no idea of. I think thats why its assumed he will just absorb like he did to the entire underground

I'm pretty sure it wasn't instant from what I recalled. I recall the screen flashing for a while before he fully absorbed all the souls. Not just an instant flash and he instantly became Asriel. Pretty sure it was drawn out.

It is instant if you get hit by the white flash. Basically if the entire underground was near flowey it would have taken a second or less but since they are scattered flowey had to send the wave to the underground and take everyones souls.

I agree, not infinite, but large. But only as large as Asriels range. Which is in 2-B, but not close to as far into 2-B as Sonic is.

I thought undertale was also countless 2-B I might be wrong though.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Asriel has no other move against someone he has no idea of. I think thats why its assumed he will just absorb like he did to the entire underground

It is instant if you get hit by the white flash. Basically if the entire underground was near flowey it would have taken a second or less but since they are scattered flowey had to send the wave to the underground and take everyones souls.

I thought undertale was also countless 2-B I might be wrong though.

He has plenty of options. Namely any of the attacks used in his fight that target the soul and would neg many verses in general due to their lack of soul resistance.

Ill look into it tomorrow, but I think the white flash was just to signify his transformation, not him absorbing things since it was supposed to serve as a dramatic reveal (as the flash concealed the players view of him).

It is (tho I think the reasoning is a bit dubious personally). But it's not nearly as far into countless as Sonic. Recall earlier when I said Sonic currently scales to one of the biggest 2-B cosmologies on the site as of rn if memory serves me right. He's VERY far into countless universes whereas Asriel is vaguely in it.

 

[ShionAH]

He has plenty of options. Namely any of the attacks used in his fight that target the soul and would neg many verses in general due to their lack of soul resistance.

Which they only used against frisk to see their determination burn

Ill look into it tomorrow, but I think the white flash was just to signify his transformation, not him absorbing things since it was supposed to serve as a dramatic reveal (as the flash concealed the players view of him).

I am pretty sure there are NPCs who talk about a white flash suddenly appearing and then they open their eyes after the pacifist route.

It is (tho I think the reasoning is a bit dubious personally). But it's not nearly as far into countless as Sonic. Recall earlier when I said Sonic currently scales to one of the biggest 2-B cosmologies on the site as of rn if memory serves me right. He's VERY far into countless universes whereas Asriel is vaguely in it.

Oh well thats alright then what does sonic to do for BFR?

 

[LaserPrecision]

Which they only used against frisk to see their determination burn

I am pretty sure there are NPCs who talk about a white flash suddenly appearing and then they open their eyes after the pacifist route.

Oh well thats alright then what does sonic to do for BFR?

Still more likely than he is to use soul absorption. I explained earlier that it's still not something he opens with in most battles. In fact, he only opened with it ONCE throughout all of Undertale.

Hm, ill look into it. Tomorrow of course. It's past 4am for me rn so I'm tired asf.

What does he have to do? Is that what u meant? If so, he just needs to think to seal/BFR someone

 

[LaserPrecision]

Im a sleep now. I'm exhausted since I e stayed up late. I hope either side doesn't get gta trainedwhile I'm gone. Aight ima pass out now, cyapeeps

 

[ShionAH]

Still more likely than he is to use soul absorption. I explained earlier that it's still not something he opens with in most battles. In fact, he only opened with it ONCE throughout all of Undertale.

Because he only had enough power once lol

Hm, ill look into it. Tomorrow of course. It's past 4am for me rn so I'm tired asf.

Yeah sure good night

What does he have to do? Is that what u meant? If so, he just needs to think to seal/BFR someone

Just think and it happens? Can I see a clip tomorrow?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Wait guys

Asriel actually opens with Sleep Hax

 

[ShionAH]

Wait guys

Asriel actually opens with Sleep Hax

when

 

[ShakeResounding]

Super Sonic has Type 3 Self-Sustenance, Asriel's Sleep Hax isn't working here unless it's shown to work on people with that. As for him leading with it, this I gotta see.

Also, about the "Sonic will be surprised that he's paralyzed" argument, Sonic can directly sense when an enemy is about to attack him now (thank you, Frontiers). And if the only thing Sonic can do off-rip is lead with thought-based hax to not get murked, that's likely what he's gonna do.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

when

At very start, the battle itself happen in dream.

 

[ShionAH]

At very start, the battle itself happen in dream.

he also has passive paralysis and starts with soul absorbing as well

 

[ShakeResounding]

So Sleep Manipulation that's countered by Type 3 Self-Sustenance, passive paralysis that's circumvented only by several thought-based hax, and the Soul Absorbing light which he used to achieve this form but which he isn't quick to use otherwise (which also takes time to travel, albeit quickly). It doesn't help that they start 4 km apart as per SBA, giving Sonic plenty of time to literally think and activate his wincons while also being warned of any attack sent his way by Asriel.

None of what Asriel has aside from Save and Load will really benefit him here because he's pigeon-holing Sonic into his thought-based hax. Even with Save & Load, Sonic will retain the memory of each previous reset to better-counter him anyways. At that point, all Sonic needs to do is use Chaos Control to stop time, land a single punch, and Asriel is nuked through his history with Temporal AoE.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

How he's gonna land a punch if he is paralysed?

 

[DaMonkeMan]

I swear to god people don't read any of the argument for Sonic.

 

[ShionAH]

I swear to god people don't read any of the argument for Sonic.

Stop

 

[DaMonkeMan]

Anyway.
I guess I'll vote Sonic, Shake sounds pretty reasonable.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Btw is OP actually counting or what

 

[ShionAH]

Btw is OP actually counting or what

Nah pizzabox never counts the votes

 

[ShakeResounding]

How he's gonna land a punch if he is paralysed?

By using layered Time Stop and thus completely negating the effect of Asriel's paralysis, unless Asriel's hax has shown the capability of working in stopped time (Speed Equal saves Asriel as well due to Immeasurable Speed > non-Immeasurable passives). Granted, I don't think Super Sonic will use Chaos Control as his first counter to Asriel, he's more likely to send Asriel away with BFR that has vastly greater 2-B range. But when Save & Load starts to factor into the fight, that's when the gloves come off and it becomes Super Sonic would be more than willing to do. What, you think he's just gonna stand there and take it? Wink

So yeah, Asriel ends up either incapped or eventually gets temporally nuked because he simply won't have the opportunity to act before Sonic simply thinks. Sonic doesn't have much choice, anyways.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Because he only had enough power once lol

He's had several chances to try and absorb at least part of the Underground and didn't take it.

Just think and it happens? Can I see a clip tomorrow?

Sure. Sonic hasn't used Chaos Control on himself that much, so there's only one example and unfortunately it's the most drawn out dramatic scene in the series (Such a good scene)



But normally, it looks more akin to what Shadow does to teleport, aka just think and it happens:



It takes longer on more drawn out dramatic scenes (Because duh, it'd be lame otherwise) and is instant otherwise. Since it functions just like Shadow's TP. Hope that helps.

At very start, the battle itself happen in dream.

What? No. That's not what happened. He only puts you to sleep at the end of the battle as he sets everything back to normal. The very fact u could move your body in the fight until it was paralyzed (Where it states they are unable to move their body) proves that. It's clear most of the fight was not in a dream.

I swear to god people don't read any of the argument for Sonic.

While you are free to agree with either side, I do want to say you often seem biased against Undertale. I still agree to Sonic winning, but I am hoping you aren't biased against them as that makes the debate a little one-sided in Sonic's favor.

 

[ShionAH]

He's had several chances to try and absorb at least part of the Underground and didn't take it.

Pretty sure flowey talks about how you have to be really powerful to absorb monsters so he only had 1 other chance that was stopped by frisk

 

[LaserPrecision]

But when Save & Load starts to factor into the fight, that's when the gloves come off and it becomes Super Sonic would be more than willing to do. What, you think he's just gonna stand there and take it? Wink

Save and Load shouldn't be enough to return Asriel to the Battle field. I dunno if you agree with that or not, but I think the very fact he's only able to load files accessible to him at the time means it has a range limitation. So Sonic's far larger 2-B range with BFR should take care of him.

 

[LaserPrecision]

Pretty sure flowey talks about how you have to be really powerful to absorb monsters so he only had 1 other chance that was stopped by frisk

I don't even really think it was "stopped" by Frisk if we assume the white light can absorb monsters. He could've just sent out the white light and absorbed some monsters to try and fight Frisk but instead chose to just go on a rampage and kill Frisk over and over.

 

[ShionAH]

I don't even really think it was "stopped" by Frisk if we assume the white light can absorb monsters. He could've just sent out the white light and absorbed some monsters to try and fight Frisk but instead chose to just go on a rampage and kill Frisk over and over.

I think he was being cocky there since he didnt ser frisk as a threat also remember in neutral route player kills some monsters and asgore so it makes it impossible for flowey to be asriel. He needed the entire underground alive hence the pacifist route