Super Mario General Discussion Thread.

[ShakeResounding]

Still means the calc can be indexed in some way if we really wanna keep it indexed, but without adding outlier calcs onto the main page.

As the person who added the section of unused feats, I disagree with this mentality. If a calculation is mathematically sound and the only reason we don't use it is because it's an outlier, there's no reason to practically hide it by making it a note on a page nobody looks at. I feel you would have a point if it was multiple tiers above where the cast is at now, but it's a one-tier difference. If anything, a note on the verse page explaining the feat is an outlier would be preferable to me.

That's just personal opinion, though. I ultimately have no firm stance on it and the main reason I even added that portion was because nobody in the upgrade thread disagreed with the suggestion. If people decide now that it can go, I won't cry about it

 

[Dust_Collector]

As the person who added the section of unused feats, I disagree with this mentality. If a calculation is mathematically sound and the only reason we don't use it is because it's an outlier, there's no reason to practically hide it by making it a note on a page nobody looks at. I feel you would have a point if it was multiple tiers above where the cast is at now, but it's a one-tier difference. If anything, a note on the verse page explaining the feat is an outlier would be preferable to me.

I'd be fine with making a note on the main verse page, main issue I had with it being listed was it being put under as a supporting feat despite everyone scaling 4,500 times lower than it. We could add it to the already existing note that talks about how we don't scale the base cast to higher tiers due to their lower accepted feats and all the tier 8/7 anti-feats. Tbh that note could be expanded a lil' but more in general to include how we don't scale them to stuff like Grand Stars too.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also has anyone started work on a key split for the Paper Mario characters yet? I know it was agreed that unlike mainline they can have keys for the different games due to not really having anything to contradict them being way stronger in later games compared to earlier ones but I have no idea if anyone's drafted anything up.

 

[OrangeFR]

We could add it to the already existing note that talks about how we don't scale the base cast to higher tiers due to their lower accepted feats and all the tier 8/7 anti-feats.

I love it when the base Mario cast is gatekept at tier 6 while there is a Sonic CRT with almost no opposition for putting base Eggman at 2-C from like 3 extremely unclear instances.

 

[Snek]

I love it when the base Mario cast is gatekept at tier 6 while there is a Sonic CRT with almost no opposition for putting base Eggman at 2-C from like 3 extremely unclear instances.

For what it's worth Eggman did knock out Starline who has 2-C durability from taking a swing from Amy's hammer. So that's fairly blatant although I disagree with Starline having 2-C durability in the first place because I don't assume Amy swung full force so honestly Starline should just be 9-B without Tricore enhancement. But that's just me.

Also I think the base Sonic cast should be Low 2-C because our reasoning for 2-C is terrible but I'm way too lazy to make a crt.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I mean I hear those IDW comics have quite the number of anti-feats that could be looked at

I can understand the frustration some people have with the current ratings (And I mean that for both ends of the spectrum), I personally have the base cast at Large Star level, but let's not get get passive aggressive about other verses getting upgrades. Not only is it in bad taste, but for all I know 2-C base Eggman might genuinely be more consistent than star level Mario I dunno. It's not a fun time discussing stuff like this for anyone, trust me I should know given the Zelda thread was plauged with literal pages of someone talking about how unfair it was Final Fantasy got tier 2 upgrades accepted while Zelda was being left at tier 5 and nobody had a fun time with that (I mean the threads still plauged with other awful arguments like sean and his belief that teenagers are 2 feet tall but I ain't getting into that nonsense).

 

[OrangeFR]

I mean I hear those IDW comics have quite the number of anti-feats that could be looked at

I can understand the frustration some people have with the current ratings (And I mean that for both ends of the spectrum), I personally have the base cast at Large Star level, but let's not get get passive aggressive about other verses getting upgrades. Not only is it in bad taste, but for all I know 2-C base Eggman might genuinely be more consistent than star level Mario I dunno. It's not a fun time discussing stuff like this for anyone, trust me I should know given the Zelda thread was plauged with literal pages of someone talking about how unfair it was Final Fantasy got tier 2 upgrades accepted while Zelda was being left at tier 5 and nobody had a fun time with that (I mean the threads still plauged with other awful arguments like sean and his belief that teenagers are 2 feet tall but I ain't getting into that nonsense).

That was the reason for me talking about my frustrations here and not in the CRT. It can get to a point where it feels like CRTs for certain verses just pass with no objection from anyone no matter what, while other verses just get outliers/anti-feats slapped on them even when it’s just a 1 tier jump.

 

[Lou_change]

I think the difference for consistency between Mario and Sonic is more that there are explanations for things that would otherwise be inconsistent like how classic sonic able to keep up with modern sonic in generations. Accelerated development that was effective negated when the timeline self corrected. I wasn't able to find anything saying Classic specifically gets stronger from fighting more just Sonic passively gets stronger. I guess something suggest he also gets stronger from fighting but I am not entirely sure why Classic wouldn't have achieved the same level of power in the normal timeline and therefore still be weaker then Modern Sonic who would have become even stronger in comparison.

Still it is a better explanation then anything explicitly stated in Mario.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So going back to my original proposal of moving the Dark Bowser feat from the supporting calcs section:

Note 1: Mario characters' base stats are not scaled to cosmic tiers based on feats such as scaling to the creation abilities of Power Stars and Grand Stars, as such tiering was determined to be an outlier in regards to their accepted feats and anti-feats. We also do not scale their base stats to Dark Bowser plunging the world into darkness due to it being one instance of a tier 5 feat that is thousands of times greater than even the highest tier 6 feats they've performed.

Would this fine to add to the note we already have on the verse page? Or would it be worth making it it's own seperate note. Wouldn't bloat the page either way it's just one sentence, but this way we can both keep the calc indexed somewhere so it's not lost to the void and explain why we don't scale the base cast to it.

And also going back to the Paper Mario key split, I see we've got two calcs for the base characters, we should obviously check around for more feats but so far it looks like for Thousand Year Door they can be High 7-C and for Super Paper Mario they can be 7-B.

 

[JPTheGamer]

So going back to my original proposal of moving the Dark Bowser feat from the supporting calcs section:

Note 1: Mario characters' base stats are not scaled to cosmic tiers based on feats such as scaling to the creation abilities of Power Stars and Grand Stars, as such tiering was determined to be an outlier in regards to their accepted feats and anti-feats. We also do not scale their base stats to Dark Bowser plunging the world into darkness due to it being one instance of a tier 5 feat that is thousands of times greater than even the highest tier 6 feats they've performed.

Would this fine to add to the note we already have on the verse page? Or would it be worth making it it's own seperate note. Wouldn't bloat the page either way it's just one sentence, but this way we can both keep the calc indexed somewhere so it's not lost to the void and explain why we don't scale the base cast to it.

And also going back to the Paper Mario key split, I see we've got two calcs for the base characters, we should obviously check around for more feats but so far it looks like for Thousand Year Door they can be High 7-C and for Super Paper Mario they can be 7-B.

Dark Bowser’s feat is world-scale domination via corruption which is explicitly magical in nature; it isn’t just “plunging the world into darkness." Bowser and Fawful’s power-ups come from Dark Star energy, which is canonically stated to be a reality-altering force sealed away because of its danger. We don't have any evidence to prove it’s an outlier, and even so, Bowser has consistently absorbsled cosmic or dark energies in other games (Dream Team, Galaxy, Odyssey) that grant him greater levels and feats.

Calling the tier 5 feat an "outlier” ignores the scaling context of Bowser’s empowered forms, which repeatedly world-to-universe scale across multiple timelines and continuities. Even if we assume it’s far beyond a “tier 6” feat (which usually denotes planetary or solar-scale), Mario-verse characters regularly fight entities who are near or on that level. Your intent to “index” the calc as a note to avoid losing it is fine organizationally, but also logically flawed. We can't hide a feat that canonically occurs under the justification of avoiding inflation. That’s not a valid reason to demote it. If your goal here is accuracy, then feats should be analyzed case-by-case based on consistency, context, and mechanics.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Dark Bowser’s feat is world-scale domination via corruption which is explicitly magical in nature; it isn’t just “plunging the world into darkness." Bowser and Fawful’s power-ups come from Dark Star energy, which is canonically stated to be a reality-altering force sealed away because of its danger. We don't have any evidence to prove it’s an outlier, and even so, Bowser has consistently absorbsled cosmic or dark energies in other games (Dream Team, Galaxy, Odyssey) that grant him greater levels and feats.

Calling the tier 5 feat an "outlier” ignores the scaling context of Bowser’s empowered forms, which repeatedly world-to-universe scale across multiple timelines and continuities. Even if we assume it’s far beyond a “tier 6” feat (which usually denotes planetary or solar-scale), Mario-verse characters regularly fight entities who are near or on that level. Your intent to “index” the calc as a note to avoid losing it is fine organizationally, but also logically flawed. We can't hide a feat that canonically occurs under the justification of avoiding inflation. That’s not a valid reason to demote it. If your goal here is accuracy, then feats should be analyzed case-by-case based on consistency, context, and mechanics.

What the hell are you on about? I'm not pushing it to be an outlier it was already deemed an outlier in the High 6-A CRT (Or was deemed usable for Dark Bowser only? I dunno it was one of the two but either way an outlier for the main characters). Go make a CRT if you want to be treated as a usable feat the base cast scale to.

 

[JPTheGamer]

What the hell are you on about? I'm not pushing it to be an outlier it was already deemed an outlier in the High 6-A CRT (Or was deemed usable for Dark Bowser only? I dunno it was one of the two but either way an outlier for the main characters). Go make a CRT if you want to be treated as a usable feat the base cast scale to.

Just because it was "deemed an outlier" doesn't mean it IS an outlier. There's a lot of things to take into account when it comes to feats like this such as the context and gap in power.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Just because it was "deemed an outlier" doesn't mean it IS an outlier. There's a lot of things to take into account when it comes to feats like this such as the context and gap in power.

Yeah ok dude it being accepted as an outlier for the base cast doesn't mean it's accepted as an outlier. Want it to be accepted for scaling for the base cast? Make a CRT and get it accepted, at this moment it is accepted by the site as an outlier for base characters. I don't know how to make this clearer than I already am.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Yeah ok dude it being accepted as an outlier for the base cast doesn't mean it's accepted as an outlier. Want it to be accepted for scaling for the base cast? Make a CRT and get it accepted

Trust me; there's already a plan to.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Tbh i have a question: Why does the Dark Bowser feat scales to physical stats in the first place? Genuine question

 

[JPTheGamer]

Tbh i have a question: Why does the Dark Bowser feat scales to physical stats in the first place? Genuine question

Because it's performed using the same Dark Star energy he uses for attacks and body.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Because it's performed using the same Dark Star energy he uses for attacks and body.

I see, thank you

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

It's not expected from Mario in particular every verse is expected to have consistency, it's likely a lot of verses on the wiki right now shouldn't be as high as they should be (Personally I find Raymans 4-B rating kinda sus) and should have a closer look put on them.

I know i'm late for the discussion, but these are my thoughts as well

We downgrading Mario due to the taking anti-feats in consideration is not we being "too harsh on Mario", it is the sign of someone FINALLY trying to not just look at the funny big numbers and actually trying to apply a degree of consistence to a franchise, and if other Verses get away with absurd scaling, the fault is on specific supporters letting this happen, instead of literally everyone on the wiki having double standards for the exact same franchises

A bit off-topic: But i think the Rayman case ins't a good example of this, i don't really remember him having any lore-significant anti-feats and the 4-B feat is performed a good amount of times on the same game

I mean I hear those IDW comics have quite the number of anti-feats that could be looked at

Yeah they actually do, my favorite one is Silver needing a forcefield to contain a room-sized explosion and almost freaking dying due to the amount of energy he used

 

[Lou_change]

Isn't Bowser's inside story one of the games with the most proof the characters get stronger maybe the just don't keep levels or something.

 

[Chariot190]

maybe the just don't keep levels or something.

they dont, they keep resetting each game and they even mention it it's kind of funny

 

[Dust_Collector]

Also Bowser specifically spends most of BIS regaining his normal strength levels because he got weakened in the first 5 mins lol

 

[Lou_change]

This actually seems interesting either of you two willing to elaborate.

 

[Chariot190]

This actually seems interesting either of you two willing to elaborate.

Not much to elaborate, most games just open up with "wow you uhm, ******* suck again and rusty because you haven't done much since your last adventure, ya gotta get ur lvs back up bros".
They just acknowledge the lv resets and give an excuse so the bros do drop between games because they, idk, sat on their ass eating cannolis or something.

Basically like Samus dropping half her kit between games but instead of [almost died] it's [idk they're lazy lmao].

 

[Dust_Collector]

Was gonna switch to imgchest for all my scans eventually but sure is nice Labour has made imgur blocked in the UK to make me switch early (My VPN sadly doesn't load the site correctly). Need keir starmer to be launched to the ends of space ANYWAY UK politics aside since this ain't the place for that lol, I was wondering if I should add a "biology" section for Bowser's profile.

I've got a shitty section dedicated to it in my sandbox atm purely for organisation purposes while I'm still working on the profile, but dunno if it's worth keeping it (Obviously better formated than it currently is) as part of the page? Bowser's built so wrong I def think it should be indexed, was orginally just gonna put it in his P&A tab and while a lot of it would be fine to list there, a decent chunk of it doesn't seem like it would work well in the P&A section. Plus given he can suck people into his body and shrink them down to a size where they can explore it might be useful to make it clear what his opponents might have to deal with if they somehow end up in there via the suck (Or hell if they pull a Miss Frizzle and just hop in themselves to **** around in his body).

Kinda worried it would bloat the profile tho. It's gonna be big with or without it but ehhh.

 

[Lou_change]

I would say make it a separate location profile labeled location or something to distinguish it. If the inner workings of Bowser's body become relevant then people can check that profile instead.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I would say make it a separate location profile labeled location or something to distinguish it. If the inner workings of Bowser's body become relevant then people can check that profile instead.

Yo hold up that sounds like a good idea, I might use this as an excuse to make my first location profile.

 

[Lou_change]

Also both the woolly and crafted world have odd relationships with canon Woolly World (the Yoshi series is very connected the Mario series) just doesn't make sense, and crafted world has the world made by baby mario (1-A baby mario real) so using those might be weird.

 

[McFriesGuy075]

Yeah they actually do, my favorite one is Silver needing a forcefield to contain a room-sized explosion and almost freaking dying due to the amount of energy he used

Doesn't have to be an anti-feat. Just because the range of the explosion doesn't coincide with the AP doesn't mean it won't have that AP. Our Attack Potency even says something along those lines.

Some of the "anti-feats" in IDW can easily be justified if one takes a look behind the context.

 

[Accelerated_Evolution]

Doesn't have to be an anti-feat. Just because the range of the explosion doesn't coincide with the AP doesn't mean it won't have that AP. Our Attack Potency even says something along those lines.

Yeah i know

Thinking a random ass explosion that, IIRC, ins't made of any special type of material, is Tier 2 is odd though

Anyway, i really don't want to start a debate regarding a series i stopped caring about the powerscaling side long ago + This is a Mario thread so yeah i will drop the topic

 

[Dust_Collector]

Speaking of anti feats we should change up the heat resistance for several characters. Characters like Mario, Peach, Daisy, etc... are listed as having straight resistance to lava heat via being unharmed by it in Mario Kart Wii. I mean, the scan and justification isn't wrong but the profiles basically ignoring lava in any other game is incredibly goofy.

Mario Kart games are the only one these characters can handle lava (And as of Mario Kart World you can't even say they're flat out unharmed by it anymore, it burns and hurts them like crazy. Every 2D Mario game treats lava as instant death, so do half the 3D games while the other half treat lava as a hazard that greatly burns and damages the characters from the briefest touch, there's like a million minigames in the Mario Party series where touching lava makes the character instantly lose due to getting burned and launched away, Bowser who is, more often than not, treated as having a better heat tolerance than most of the main cast has been beaten by lava so many times it's comical (His galaxy level or universal durability would've been useful there) to the point where he's been turned into a skeleton twice because of it, and at his best has survived being dunked for like a few seconds while flailing around in pain before he jumps out to avoid any longterm damage.

I think keeping lava level heat res is fine, but it should be made clear that only does it still harm them but their best feats show they can only handle it for a few seconds before needing to be saved by Lakitu. The exact tolerance obviously varies by character, Wario in his own games while still damaged can handle lava better than Mario or Luigi can. For Mario as an example we could find the level of heat he can consistently withstand without much issue and list the lava stuff as an at most after that or something.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Doesn't have to be an anti-feat. Just because the range of the explosion doesn't coincide with the AP doesn't mean it won't have that AP. Our Attack Potency even says something along those lines.

I mean, we used a few instances of bob-omb explosions as anti feats when downgrading the characters from galaxy level since the range of the explosions wouldn't get anything beyond tier 9 or 8

 

[McFriesGuy075]

I mean, we used a few instances of bob-omb explosions as anti feats when downgrading the characters from galaxy level since the range of the explosions wouldn't get anything beyond tier 9 or 8

So? What's stopping you from arguing against those?

 

[Dust_Collector]

So? What's stopping you from arguing against those?

The fact that I agree with them

 

[Starsprite53]

So? What's stopping you from arguing against those?

I mean, It's really simple if someone can just bring up a higher feat that discards the anti-feat instead.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Anyway still not finding the statements that confirm Bowser actually made that black hole, his profile atm has 0 scans, 0 references, the blog for the 4-A calc doesn't provide anything saying Bowser used the Grand Star to make it, and the CRT as far as I can tell concluded he made it based on the vibes instead of anything explict. I'm finding the upgrade really sus right now.

 

[Armorchompy]

I mean, It's really simple if someone can just bring up a higher feat that discards the anti-feat instead.

It's less simple than that because then someone can bring up an anti-feat that discards the higher feat.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Btw has anyone else been keeping up with the NES Super Mario Bros speed running community? The current WR for any % is 4:54.515, for comparison the record via a TAS is 4:54.032. It's crazy how close they've gotten to the TAS.

 

[ShakeResounding]

That is ******* demented (in a good way).

Some people truly ARE machines...

 

[JJSliderman]

I find Suigi’s complete sweep of Mario 64 just as notable.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Anyway still not finding the statements that confirm Bowser actually made that black hole, his profile atm has 0 scans, 0 references, the blog for the 4-A calc doesn't provide anything saying Bowser used the Grand Star to make it, and the CRT as far as I can tell concluded he made it based on the vibes instead of anything explict. I'm finding the upgrade really sus right now.

First off, the CRT wasn't an upgrade; it was a proposal to bring the Grand Star key back for certain characters like Bowser. Secondly, we established multiple times in that thread that Grand Stars are capable of creating and sustaining black holes due to them not only upgraded versions of Power Stars which are shown to do the same, but the fact that misuse of them or having them removed in the first and second games resulted in black holes appearing. Thirdly, we stated Bowser has the power to generate black holes as seen throughout a few of the Mario Party games in that CRT

Do you have any visual or contextual proof the black hole was made by any other means or that it WASN'T generated by Bowser? Because if not, then the most logical conclusion that CRT and these arguments point to is that it was made due to Bowser's mishandling of the star.