Super Mario General Discussion Thread.

[Dust_Collector]

 

[JPTheGamer]

I told you to start here and go down.

Super Galaxy Bros: Return of the Grand Stars

Why haven't YOU provided explicit proof that Bowser was using greater or equal energy to the Grand Star or that the Grand Star was the cause of the black hole? You're the one who helped with the calculation. Not trying to be rude, so I'm sorry if I came off as so. Not sure why you think...

vsbattles.com

Super Galaxy Bros: Return of the Grand Stars

Why haven't YOU provided explicit proof that Bowser was using greater or equal energy to the Grand Star or that the Grand Star was the cause of the black hole? You're the one who helped with the calculation. Not trying to be rude, so I'm sorry if I came off as so. Not sure why you think...

vsbattles.com

 

[Dust_Collector]

the hierarchy of power in the Mario universe... is about to change

Just a CRT to add incorpreality so come have a gander everyone.

 

[Luckyfun]

Kinda sad no one talks about color splash.
From what i know there's a possibility of giving paper mario conceptual stuff.

 

[OrangeFR]

@Dust_Collector In this CRT you talked about how you had stuff to say on the subject of possibly separating keys for the Mario cast, I am curious as well. Would you like to talk about it here some?

 

[Dust_Collector]

I talked about it a few pages back

I do think the characters are stronger now then they were in, say, Mario 3, but it's not tier jump stronger. Like already mentioned we got Partners in Time blatantly treating the babies and adults as roughly on par, Yoshi's Island DS has the Yoshis being able to damage adult Bowser and yet Baby Bowser can still withstand attacks from those same Yoshis, New Island does show a bigger gap between Baby and Adult Boeser (In their normal forms anyway, giant forms are about on par) but Baby Bowser can still harm the same Yoshis that can withstand blows him his adult self. Hell, DS even shows Baby Bowser getting blasted by his adult versions fire breath and he was more annoyed by the attack then he was hurt, and Cranky Kong is portrayed as being out of his prime yet he's still comparable to current DK.

I don't think there's a whole lot to back up Mario being tiers stronger in Odyssey then he was back in the original DK arcade game. Like yeah he's stronger but not by that much, he wouldn't just stomp Baby Bowser if he went back in time to fight him.

 

[Lou_change]

I mean he did go back in time to give yoshi an invincibility item
I think at least the Mario Brothers and Bowser can potentially get tiers stronger via level ups, but they can lose the levels if they goes out of practice.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I think at least the Mario Brothers and Bowser can potentially get tiers stronger via level ups, but they can lose the levels if they goes out of practice.

I also think that might be fine, but then again halfway through BIS the Bros even after leveling up still have to go through a weaker than normal Bowser as a major boss fight (Bowser is also still treated as being physically stronger than them) so with that in mind I don't think it'd justify something like, multiversal Mario & Luigi during the endgame of Dream Team.

 

[JJSliderman]

It would be funny if they never actually lost the bond amps from Brothership and their new base just, became Multiversal depending on the result of the Reclusa CRT

 

[Dust_Collector]

It would be funny if they never actually lost the bond amps from Brothership and their new base just, became Multiversal depending on the result of the Reclusa CRT

It'd be even funnier when their new multiversal base forms can't hurt Bowser and they need to trick him into falling like 100 feet or into regular ol' lava to knock him out

 

[Lou_change]

I also think that might be fine, but then again halfway through BIS the Bros even after leveling up still have to go through a weaker than normal Bowser as a major boss fight (Bowser is also still treated as being physically stronger than them) so with that in mind I don't think it'd justify something like, multiversal Mario & Luigi during the endgame of Dream Team.

I don't remember bowser being weaker most of the game I thought he got back to normal relatively early on and they were allowing bowser to use bodily functions he didn't know about later on.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I don't remember bowser being weaker most of the game I thought he got back to normal relatively early on and they were allowing bowser to use bodily functions he didn't know about later on.

No even by the time he fights the bros at toadleys clinic Bowser says he's still not at full power (Or on his "A game" in the remake) and even calls himself weak. Will say I did overestimate how far that fight is in the game it's about a third in instead of halfway, but either way a weakened Bowser by that point is still physically superior to Mario / Luigi even after they level up quite a few times, so I don't think the power growth they get in these games is so good they could jump from High 6-A to 2-B in games like Dream Team, I could see maybe the Dark Bowser stuff being applicable for this short term tier jumps but that's still 4,500 times above the High 6-A ratings so eh.

Then again it would be really funny to let it count for tier jumps so we can downgrade the base cast back to island level based on Mario and Luigi only doing that High 6-A feat in Brothership near the end of the game when they've gotten leveled up a ton.

 

[Lou_change]

I mean it is really just that they go from unable to break barriers created by a dormant dark star, to beating half of an awake dark star/Dark fawful with half the star's power, to beating a full power dark star (plus Bowser DNA and Fawful) and tanking fawful's self destruct.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Guys, come on, Lubba is a girl, there's Thwomp comets, Rosalina is confirmed to be thousands of years old, and space was called endless again

 

[Chariot190]

Lubba is a girl,

Source right now.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Source right now.

New storybook in the SMG2 switch port, confirms Lubba's real name is Lu and of course that she's a woman.

 

[Chariot190]

Wtf chat have I been assuming the funny fat star thing's gender for like 15 years?????

 

[Dust_Collector]

Stuff like the original Wii manual called Lubba a guy but apparently in japan Lubba (and Lumas in general) were always referred to with gender neutral pronouns or something, but then Smash 4 called Lubba a girl (eng translation changed it to a guy) and it stuck.

Although I do like the english versions accidental implication she transitioned in the years between the original release and the Switch 2 port, would've made her the second purple trans character in the franchise (And since I know one person's gonna try correcting me by saying she'd be the third, Birdo is pink)

 

[OrangeFR]

Then again it would be really funny to let it count for tier jumps so we can downgrade the base cast back to island level based on Mario and Luigi only doing that High 6-A feat in Brothership near the end of the game when they've gotten leveled up a ton.

Pretty sure the only reason for the high 6-A increase was because the big feat at the end of Wario Land: Shake it (I think it was like parting clouds or an earthquake I forget which) got calced to that tier as well and if it weren’t for that the upgrade would not have gone through.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Okay so update about the Galaxy 2 Stroybook:

The Japanese explicitly clarifies that Mari end up reincarnating into a "world" before the events of a big bang. Why does this matter?

Well, it calls a previous realm a "world" as well, one that suspiciously looks a lot like World 1 in Galaxy 2 with the cloudy sky like background. This, along with the file select name for World 2 being "A New Universe" in Japanese I feel is enough proof that the Worlds are of universal size, or at the least CAN be, which makes World 2 at the least more corroborated and would significantly upgrade the speed ratings because of the green stars and how World 2 is overall still a part of the grand universe that Mario can travel to the edges of.

However, it can also imply that Lubba and Rosalina potentially both lived through the end and rebirth of a universe, which is kidna already implied by Rosa in Galaxy 1. At the very least though, Lubba has to be like billions of years old either way because Mari already became a star multiple times even and implies she'll keep becoming a star until she can see Lubba again.

Either way, profiles will likely have to be updated to reflect this. Lumas being able to predate universes through cycles and sort of remember their experiences albeit hazily (and possibly cause the formation of one and are chill about being in the middle of a big bang event) and Lubba and Rosa both being older than we think are explicitly confirmed.

 

[MicDaniel]

I have a theory that the Lumalee from the Super Mario Bros movie might just be Mari. If the cycle stuff is true then the Movie might be a new cycle of the Mario Universe.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Yeah that's the popular theory atm but I'm not sure if they'll actually lean into that and make it canon.

I'm also really confused with how the story ended. It says Mari became a star again but then the very next page it says that light dissipated and darkness settled again. Did Mari just ******* teleport or something or was that the biggest time jump ever and it was saying she lived out another life? I'm confused about that. If it's the latter then she might just be the big bang herself.

 

[Jimmy.robinson.5099]

I have a theory that the Lumalee from the Super Mario Bros movie might just be Mari. If the cycle stuff is true then the Movie might be a new cycle of the Mario Universe.

As far-fetched as that sounds, it kinda sounds like something Nintendo would come up with.

 

[MicDaniel]

Something else I find interesting is that Luma's do not necessarily need to be well fed to transform. Mari just outright transforms into a star out of random and Lubba seemed to try despite not being fed. Well that's probably why it didn't work for lubba but it's weird that Mari's transformation happened so suddenly.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

Mari is implied to have eaten star bits in the past but yeah nothing really says she was well fed when she transformed.

 

[O0DSF0o]

Can someone add Hotel Mario Bowser to the Bowser Navbox? Thanks

 

[Dust_Collector]

Think you should try asking in the wiki general request thread, higher chance of any given staff member seeing it being able to go in and add it

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Okay so update about the Galaxy 2 Stroybook:

The Japanese explicitly clarifies that Mari end up reincarnating into a "world" before the events of a big bang. Why does this matter?

Well, it calls a previous realm a "world" as well, one that suspiciously looks a lot like World 1 in Galaxy 2 with the cloudy sky like background. This, along with the file select name for World 2 being "A New Universe" in Japanese I feel is enough proof that the Worlds are of universal size, or at the least CAN be, which makes World 2 at the least more corroborated and would significantly upgrade the speed ratings because of the green stars and how World 2 is overall still a part of the grand universe that Mario can travel to the edges of.

However, it can also imply that Lubba and Rosalina potentially both lived through the end and rebirth of a universe, which is kidna already implied by Rosa in Galaxy 1. At the very least though, Lubba has to be like billions of years old either way because Mari already became a star multiple times even and implies she'll keep becoming a star until she can see Lubba again.

Either way, profiles will likely have to be updated to reflect this. Lumas being able to predate universes through cycles and sort of remember their experiences albeit hazily (and possibly cause the formation of one and are chill about being in the middle of a big bang event) and Lubba and Rosa both being older than we think are explicitly confirmed.

Yeah that's the popular theory atm but I'm not sure if they'll actually lean into that and make it canon.

I'm also really confused with how the story ended. It says Mari became a star again but then the very next page it says that light dissipated and darkness settled again. Did Mari just ******* teleport or something or was that the biggest time jump ever and it was saying she lived out another life? I'm confused about that. If it's the latter then she might just be the big bang herself.

Pardon me for being either slow or potentially off the mark; is this suggesting that Mari reincarnated into a universe and/or big bang, and that Lubba/Rosalina have survived the creation/destruction of universes?

 

[AceOfSpaces3709]

I dunno if I'm the last guy to the party on this one, but I noticed something pretty big after replaying Galaxy 2 for the first time in 14 years.

After collecting all 121 stars (Little me never made it that far due to the Chimp's stomp challenges and Fiery Gobblegut's boss fight), there's a Secret cutscene where Rosalina closes her book before telling the Lumas a new story about the Green Stars, which prompts that infamous 121 Green Star filler quest.

This got me thinking, "Is Super Mario Galaxy 2, just a story told by Rosalina?".

There is some solid ground that supports this theory, as most of the story cutscenes have a white border around them, almost like pages in a book. This may also explain why the game's tone and story aren't as serious or deep as the first game's. This might also explain how Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Bowser are somehow still alive to witness a second Star Festival, which was stated in the first game to only occur once every 100 years.

This also isn't the first time Nintendo has done something like this, considering Super Mario Bros 2 is revealed to be a dream and Super Mario Bros 3 was confirmed by Shigeru Miyamoto, himself, to be a stage performance.

With this in mind, I don't think this invalidates everything seen and done in Galaxy 2. I just thought it would be an interesting thing to discuss

 

[Dust_Collector]

Trying to nail down the temperture for Bowser's fire breath and heat resistance and need help because I'm not so smart sometimes. How hot do we treat Bowser's fire breath? His baby self can withstand his future self breathing flames at him (And only really ends up more annoyed by it than hurt), and Galaxy shows that if his fireballs circle around the planet without hitting anything they can hit him only to do nothing but disapate upon contact. But in most instances, including those examples I just gave, show his fire breath as being orange/yellow, which from most sources I find put the heat of flames like that about on par with the higher range of lava temperture, which would be an issue given normal sized Bowser consistently cannot handle the heat of lava (Even at his best it still hurts him). Not to mention everyone who fights Bowser ends up less hurt / burned by Bowser's fire breath than they are from barely touching lava (Half the time lava is even treated as an instant death obstacle).

I have no idea how accurate any of tempertures I found are, but atm I'm kinda stuck with Bowser having fire breath as hot as lava despite that not being portrayed as the case in the series. Dunno if we'd treat the lava in this case as hotter than it tends to be irl, or Bowser's flames not being as hot as their real world equivalent, do neither, or if I'm just looking at bad sources and got the numbers all wrong curse Nintendo for not taking this into account for the bing bing wahoo games

 

[Lou_change]

have you found any instances of him melting large amounts of ice quickly

 

[Imaginym]

Don't have a ton of free tme AtM, but wanna bring this up AtM:



Apparently, Jr. Troopa has dialogue during his final battle for when Air Lift or Spook are attempted against him.

Given the former, I wonder if this'd be a basis for Resistance to Fear Manipulation (Or Social Influencing (Fear), since it's just Bow making a big, scary face & yelling?) for him?
He doesn't seem to do anything to visibly resist Air Lift, so it'd be questionable to call it matching Parakarry's LS; He's just standing there, & he calls it a "cheap trick" (He has unique dialogue for both Air Lift & Spook.), so maybe it's just Game Mechanics with dialogue added on?
What do other folks think?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Given the former, I wonder if this'd be a basis for Resistance to Fear Manipulation (Or Social Influencing (Fear), since it's just Bow making a big, scary face & yelling?) for him?

It'd def be more social influencing than actual fear manipulation. Unlike something like SMRPG there's not an actual fear status that magically affects the enemy in Paper Mario, it just makes some enemys run away because they saw something scary.

He doesn't seem to do anything to visibly resist Air Lift, so it'd be questionable to call it matching Parakarry's LS; He's just standing there, & he calls it a "cheap trick" (He has unique dialogue for both Air Lift & Spook, so maybe it's just Game Mechanics with dialogue added on?

I'd chalk it up to matching his LS, he'd have to just be physically strong enough to just stand there and not even get budged, no other way for him to resist being lifted off like that. Well either that or Jr Troopa is just (And other bosses I guess) are too heavy for Parakarry to lift with his own LS.

 

[Armorchompy]

Jr. Troopa is actually entirely composed of Osmium and weighs 4435.2 tons

 

[Chariot190]

Jr. Troopa is actually entirely composed of Osmium and weighs 4435.2 tons

It'd be more like 3kg because he's flat, assuming he's like 1m tall and as thick as construction paper.

 

[Dust_Collector]

I think Jr. Troopa is actually 3 dimensional instead of flat, which explains why he is so powerful in the world of paper mario.

 

[Armorchompy]

He's actually a hypercube and has seventeen other dimensions of pure osmium folded inside him, he weighs more than the rest of the observable universe

 

[Chariot190]

He's actually a hypercube and has seventeen other dimensions of pure osmium folded inside him,

If said dimensions are made of osmium they're evidently not qualitively superior so it ultimately doesn't mean much and as such we also need to know the size of said dimensions as well

he weighs more than the rest of the observable universe

3kg > 2kg so sure.

I think Jr. Troopa is actually 3 dimensional instead of flat, which explains why he is so powerful in the world of paper mario.

you're probably right, but I accounted for that and used 0.30mm thickness instead of 0mm.

 

[Imaginym]

Assuming we don't scale Paper Mario partners to current Paper Mario rating (Which, IMHO, would have its own issues.), the best feat I can think of for PM64 is the fact Bombshell Bill Blasters can be Air Lifted, meaning Parakarry can lift into flight & carry 1 of them out of the battlefield.

Thier names in seversal languages calls them golden, though their original Japanese name just translates to "Super Bill Blasters".
IDK about their original Japanese Tattles, but Goombario's English Tattle says the Bombshell Bills (In the Tattle for the Bombshell Bill itself, not the Blaster.) have such beautiful gold casings.

So these are cannons that:

A. Have gold casings, because the Bombshell Bills they fire also have gold casings.
B. Are themselves made of solid gold & it's just the Bombshell Bills they fire that are, instead of being solid gold, only gold-cased.

(Or it's something different because IDK the Japanese Tattles.)

Interesting, said Tattle also says: "Pay attention to their HP, because their explosions get bigger as their HP drops."

So, in Paper Mario for the N64, does a 1 HP Bombshell Bill make a bigger explosion than a full 6 HP Bombshell Bill?

& how much does a gold-cased or solid gold Bombshell Bill Blaster weigh? What's the LS for Air Lifting one away?


EDIT: Oh & Hurricane is also possible.

 

[Galactidot]

He's actually a hypercube and has seventeen other dimensions of pure osmium folded inside him, he weighs more than the rest of the observable universe

Hey Armor, sorry to bring up Reclusa again, but HEAR ME OUT (this isn't about 2-B or
2-A, this is the 3-A and low 2-C DDM brought up, and some other stuff)

Can you open the thread for votes on the compromise, or should I make a new one? Regardless of whether or not you agree, I feel its worth voting for. If you dont, btw, what tier would YOU say Reclusa is? Because I think we can both agree that there is no way he's merely continent level like the current base Bros (as they clearly needed an amp to match his strength)

If possible, I'd also like to discuss some hax that I didn't delve much into, like his invulerability and attack scanning.

I also recall FinePoint saying that if Reclusa is made of energy, he should at least be incorporeal, considering there was a hard disagree on conceptual as of now.

This should be simpler, so could you, too, participate, @Imaginym ?