Super Mario General Discussion Thread.

[OrangeFR]

hmmm we might need to have another look at the Dream Stones 2-B rating then, since it's based on the assumation that every dream from the inhabitants on Pi'illo Island is universal in size.

You should go back and check CRTs about it to confirm, there is likely a reason for them being considered as universes.

 

[Dust_Collector]

So having a look at dream stuff and other CRT's / threads, and it seems like we currently treat any dream in the series as automatically being universal based primarily on Future Dream in MP5 and Subcon stuff from SMB2 and BS SMB2?

BS SMB2 does say there's as many Subcons as there are peoples dreams which would indicate that much like the main Subcon in the game they're all universe sized, but that was nearly 30 years ago and more recent games like Dream Team do seem to contradict the idea of every dream world being that big with the example I gave of one of the dream worlds needing to be expanded to make room for another island since before then it was deemed too small to hide Peach from Bowser and Antasma.

Granted even if we decide none of the dreams on Pi'illo island are universal we might still have tier 2 ratings, the Zeekeeper crossing dimensions in it's boss battle is actually him creating dimensions in the original JP dialouge and that should be applicable to his AP since dreambert says the creation of dimensions is the type of power they need against the dream stone and the Zeekeeper's method of destroying the barrier made by it is with a energy beam. Although it does depend on if we wanna consider the dimensions he makes as universal in size too.

 

[Galactidot]

So having a look at dream stuff and other CRT's / threads, and it seems like we currently treat any dream in the series as automatically being universal based primarily on Future Dream in MP5 and Subcon stuff from SMB2 and BS SMB2?

BS SMB2 does say there's as many Subcons as there are peoples dreams which would indicate that much like the main Subcon in the game they're all universe sized, but that was nearly 30 years ago and more recent games like Dream Team do seem to contradict the idea of every dream world being that big with the example I gave of one of the dream worlds needing to be expanded to make room for another island since before then it was deemed too small to hide Peach from Bowser and Antasma.

Granted even if we decide none of the dreams on Pi'illo island are universal we might still have tier 2 ratings, the Zeekeeper crossing dimensions in it's boss battle is actually him creating dimensions in the original JP dialouge and that should be applicable to his AP since dreambert says the creation of dimensions is the type of power they need against the dream stone and the Zeekeeper's method of destroying the barrier made by it is with a energy beam. Although it does depend on if we wanna consider the dimensions he makes as universal in size too.

On the other side of the spectrum, even dreams not created by future dream can be universe-sized, Reclusa's are noted to contain starry skies, for instance.

 

[Dust_Collector]

On the other side of the spectrum, even dreams not created by future dream can be universe-sized, Reclusa's are noted to contain starry skies, for instance.

Oh yeah stuff like that is fine, any dream being shown to be cosmic in size is a-ok for the high tier scaling.

For the dream team stuff specifically I'm 99% sure there's several teams that are shown to be big enough to be considered universal, but think the exact value of 100,000 universes used for Dreamy Bowser, Zeekeeper, etc... might need to be downgraded to a lower number. Going through DT stuff for Bowser stuff but making note of general scaling and such while I'm doing so.

 

[Galactidot]

Except there's more to these dreams than "starry skies".

Other than the reality-warping objects, what do you mean?

 

[JPTheGamer]

Reclusa's are noted to contain starry skies, for instance.

Except there's more to these dreams than "starry skies".

Oh yeah stuff like that is fine, any dream being shown to be cosmic in size is a-ok for the high tier scaling.

For the dream team stuff specifically I'm 99% sure there's several teams that are shown to be big enough to be considered universal, but think the exact value of 100,000 universes used for Dreamy Bowser, Zeekeeper, etc... might need to be downgraded to a lower number. Going through DT stuff for Bowser stuff but making note of general scaling and such while I'm doing so.

We used 100,000 based upon the smallest known population of an island irl.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Other than the reality-warping objects, what do you mean?

There's a lot more to take into account with the dreams besides their skies.

For the record, we don't know exactly how many stars are in these dreams, but I think I did a bit of research of a few scenes with programs like Adobe Photoshop and InDesign and I there's probably a little more than 2,500 stars, which is the standard we use for starry sky feats. Also, seeing as how the Zeekeeper was able to create and/or travel dimensions in his fight with Dreamy Luigi should imply that there's more than just one starry sky in these dreams.

 

[Galactidot]

There's a lot more to take into account with the dreams besides their skies.

For the record, we don't know exactly how many stars are in these dreams, but I think I did a bit of research of a few scenes with programs like Adobe Photoshop and InDesign and I there's probably a little more than 2,500 stars, which is the standard we use for starry sky feats. Also, seeing as how the Zeekeeper was able to create and/or travel dimensions in his fight with Dreamy Luigi should imply that there's more than just one starry sky in these dreams.

Ohhh, yeah misunderstanding, I thought "the dreams" were referring to the Reclusa dreams and not the Future Dream/Stone dreams. I in turn referred to the more hyperspatial nature of the former.

 

[Dust_Collector]

We used 100,000 based upon the smallest known population of an island irl.

I'm well aware where the number comes from, my issue is that we're assuming every single one of those dreams made from the inhabitants of the island are universe sized despite having Dream worlds being small enough they needed to be forcibly expanded to make room for an island.

No issue with the tier 2 rating itself, just think we need to revaluate how many of those 100,000 dreams can actually be considered universal in size (And discuss if we can treat the Zeekeepers dimensions as universal, unfortunately not a lot in game to describe them so trying to find stuff in JP guides to clarify).

 

[Starsprite53]

they needed to be forcibly expanded to make room for an island.

Are sure you this kind of wording? I remember well that it's just there is not enough land and thus adding land is "expanding the dream world".

 

[Dust_Collector]

Are sure you this kind of wording? I remember well that it's just there is not enough land and thus adding land is "expanding the dream world".

I am checking the japanese version to see if they are talking about just the land they've got available to them or the dream world itself, but in terms of the eng version they just talk about how they need to expand the dream world itself and when they do unleash the dream egg it just says "The Dream World has Expanded" without any mention of just needing more land to walk on.

 

[JJSliderman]

Speaking of dreams, I have some memory of a globin in inside story actually falling asleep at one point, but I combed through multiple playthroughs and couldn’t find it. It feels weird

 

[Galactidot]

Speaking of dreams, I have some memory of a globin in inside story actually falling asleep at one point, but I combed through multiple playthroughs and couldn’t find it. It feels weird

If DNA and cells are capable of sleeping i don't even know what to say

 

[Dust_Collector]

Speaking of dreams, I have some memory of a globin in inside story actually falling asleep at one point, but I combed through multiple playthroughs and couldn’t find it. It feels weird

I think you might be talking about the evogloblins in Bowser's... rump... I'm pretty sure when Bowser isn't in danger of dying they're just asleep and won't respond to anything if you enter the area at any point outside of when you gotta jumpstart Bowser's life force.

If DNA and cells are capable of sleeping i don't even know what to say

Bowser is just built wrong, his dna causes active pain to anyone trying to absorb it and his cells carry spears.

 

[JJSliderman]

Globins are implied to have souls, and souls in this game are capable of dreaming.
Maybe some correlation there

 

[Zyurtunder13]

Nothing new from them, but lmao anyways

 

[MicDaniel]

Anyone else notice Mario sleeping underneath a tree on a hill in the Galaxy Movie trailer?

 

[Chariot190]

Anyone else notice Mario sleeping underneath a tree on a hill in the Galaxy Movie trailer?

I can't believe Mario gonna die wtf bros.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Anyone else notice Mario sleeping underneath a tree on a hill in the Galaxy Movie trailer?

If Efi made that profile each leaf of that tree would have it's entire history detailed from start to finish and then copy/pasted twice!

 

[Snek]

Hello I'm kind of an outsider to this thread specifically but I'm curious about afew things.

1. Why can't base Mario characters receive any scaling to Power Stars or Grand Stars here on the wiki even in the form of downscaling from them and what are the arguments like for them to scale to those artifacts in their base form?

2. Do you guys think the Wonder Flower can get a possibly 3-A rating at It's peak for It's universal range or is it just assumed here that the flower would only effect people on a universal scale but not actually any celestial bodies?

3. What are your thoughts on the feat of Yoshi punting Raphael the raven and even if it isn't assumed to be making stars in a literal sense so not 4-A or High 4-C do you guys thinking calcing the luminosity of that oddly star shaped explosion could yeild results above tier 6? For reference to a similar calc check out the profile of Radhan from Elden Ring who's Low 5-B from a luminosity calc.

Anyways thank you that's all.

 

[Lou_change]

Why can't base Mario characters receive any scaling to Power Stars or Grand Stars here on the wiki even in the form of downscaling from them and what are the arguments like for them to scale to those artifacts in their base form?

Power Stars are weird. In 64 Mario keeps every star he collects on his personal which causes some really weird scaling stuff. There is also fights between characters that are comparable to each other but one has a power star and the other doesn't. Some verses could probably argue that just means one got stronger. Mario doesn't care about consistency however so they are going to be several contradictions. I honestly think if we compiled all the statements about Nintendo not caring about consistency in Mario, I could get the verse a varies tier.

2. Do you guys think the Wonder Flower can get a possibly 3-A rating at It's peak for It's universal range or is it just assumed here that the flower would only effect people on a universal scale but not actually any celestial bodies?

I mean I would not be surprised if it got 3-A, but it seems unclear right now.

3. What are your thoughts on the feat of Yoshi punting Raphael the raven and even if it isn't assumed to be making stars in a literal sense so not 4-A or High 4-C do you guys thinking calcing the luminosity of that oddly star shaped explosion could yeild results above tier 6? For reference to a similar calc check out the profile of Radhan from Elden Ring who's Low 5-B from a luminosity calc

I would not really know.

 

[Dust_Collector]

1. Why can't base Mario characters receive any scaling to Power Stars or Grand Stars here on the wiki even in the form of downscaling from them

Mostly because scaling to Power Stars would be an outlier, can't really justify scaling to something with cosmic level power when the best feats you're pulling are baseline Multi-Continent level. Plus while you've got stuff like Mario beating Power Star empowered bosses, there's no proof said bosses are using the full power of the Power Star they have anyway (We don't scale Grand Star Bowser to the full output of a Grand Star for the same reason), and there's sometimes instances of the Power Stars just being stronger than the base cast (Mario with a Power Star effectively one shots Bowser in Mario Party 2).

and what are the arguments like for them to scale to those artifacts in their base form?

Pretty much just "they beat so-and-so who was empowered by a Power Star / Grand Star", but like I said we never get any confirmation on how much power the users harness from them anyway.

2. Do you guys think the Wonder Flower can get a possibly 3-A rating at It's peak for It's universal range or is it just assumed here that the flower would only effect people on a universal scale but not actually any celestial bodies?

It's assumed it only affects people.

3. What are your thoughts on the feat of Yoshi punting Raphael the raven and even if it isn't assumed to be making stars in a literal sense so not 4-A or High 4-C do you guys thinking calcing the luminosity of that oddly star shaped explosion could yeild results above tier 6? For reference to a similar calc check out the profile of Radhan from Elden Ring who's Low 5-B from a luminosity calc.

Might be worth it but if the results get too high it'd go into outlier territory again, if it gets Low 5-B as an example like with Radahn it ain't gonna be usable. If it's like moon level or something it might work given we have another moon level feat from Dark Bowser, but even then we'd be getting into high end tiering that isn't exactly in line with the portrayal of all the anti feats we've got for the verse like the several instances of Bowser nearly dying via a normal sized castle falling on him, or how the main method of beating Bowser is dunking him in lava.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Moving on from cringe power scaling stuff and how Mario should lowkey be tier 7, there's some interesting stuff in the new storybook pages for the SMG2 release. They've released the first 2 pages as a teaser and based on translations there's a pair of luma twins that are clearly meant to parallel Mario and Luigi (Their names are even Mari and Lu), curious to see where that leads to.

 

[Chariot190]

Radahn luminosity is as high as it is because it's borderline blinding and he's in outer space as he does it while you're on the ground. If we don't treat it as actual star slop, that in turn means the distance is unknown which makes calcing it ass and probably not even 1 trillionth as high.

 

[Armorchompy]

1. Why can't base Mario characters receive any scaling to Power Stars or Grand Stars here on the wiki even in the form of downscaling from them and what are the arguments like for them to scale to those artifacts in their base form?

Ratings higher than tier 6 are currently considered to be an outlier, and in addition the Power Stars have rather inconsistent scaling to the main cast - sometimes they don't seem to provide a boost at all, sometimes they give such a huge boost that it'd make no sense for the base cast to scale.

2. Do you guys think the Wonder Flower can get a possibly 3-A rating at It's peak for It's universal range or is it just assumed here that the flower would only effect people on a universal scale but not actually any celestial bodies?

I wouldn't know.

3. What are your thoughts on the feat of Yoshi punting Raphael the raven and even if it isn't assumed to be making stars in a literal sense so not 4-A or High 4-C do you guys thinking calcing the luminosity of that oddly star shaped explosion could yeild results above tier 6? For reference to a similar calc check out the profile of Radhan from Elden Ring who's Low 5-B from a luminosity calc.

You couldn't really estimate how far Raven has gone, and thus the brightness. A firework could do the light show he does, if close enough. But the feat is generally so cartoonish that you'd need some fairly hefty assumptions to even justify scaling it to anyone's physical AP.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Was at a car boot today with some friends and found dude seeling a copy of the Shogakukan Mario 64 guide, was only about 20 quid and in great condition to boot.

 

[Snek]

Thanks for the response.

Mostly because scaling to Power Stars would be an outlier, can't really justify scaling to something with cosmic level power when the best feats you're pulling are baseline Multi-Continent level. Plus while you've got stuff like Mario beating Power Star empowered bosses, there's no proof said bosses are using the full power of the Power Star they have anyway (We don't scale Grand Star Bowser to the full output of a Grand Star for the same reason), and there's sometimes instances of the Power Stars just being stronger than the base cast (Mario with a Power Star effectively one shots Bowser in Mario Party 2).

I see.

But is that not kind of an arbitrary reason to deny base charecters scaling to Power Stars in any capacity especially when alot of Mario's genuine anti feats go against even scaling as low as tier 8 but on the other hand most of the calcs for tier 7&6 are from feats that are done so casually that they don't seem to make higher scaling impossible? Especially when there are occasions where the Mario Base cast aren't portrayed as vastly weaker than Power Stars regardless of how inconsistent said portrayal of Power Stars is and the wiki has ratings like at most, possibly and likely to account for weird but not impossible scaling anyways. Last is it not a bit odd for the beings buffed by Power Stars that base form characters beat to be treated as being quadrillions of times weaker than their power source yet for some reason Mario & others have a High 4-C key for when they are using Power Stars?

Pretty much just "they beat so-and-so who was empowered by a Power Star / Grand Star", but like I said we never get any confirmation on how much power the users harness from them anyway.

Could that be good enough grounds for a possibly rating or would that get rejected.

It's assumed it only affects people.

Okay I can see it.

Might be worth it but if the results get too high it'd go into outlier territory again, if it gets Low 5-B as an example like with Radahn it ain't gonna be usable. If it's like moon level or something it might work given we have another moon level feat from Dark Bowser, but even then we'd be getting into high end tiering that isn't exactly in line with the portrayal of all the anti feats we've got for the verse like the several instances of Bowser nearly dying via a normal sized castle falling on him, or how the main method of beating Bowser is dunking him in lava

Intresting. Although I'm a Sonic scaler and Sonic as a series has it's own share of hilariously bad anti feats (albiet alot of them are from the IDW comics which are only considered secondary canon) so I don't see why consistency is so expected of Mario in particular when it looks like Mario feats seem so all over the place that getting "consistency" from any scaling at all whether it be 9-A,  High 6-A, or  Low 2-C just doesn't look pheasable as an outsider looking in.

 

[Snek]

If we don't treat it as actual star slop.

Death Battle who treated the feat as 4-A be like to that.

Anyways though I definitely agree that feat in particular is so cartoony that I think treating it as a big star shaped explosion is more reasonable than treating it like Raphael randomly getting transmuted into literal stars from getting punched really hard. And I say that as someone who wants Mario to have more scaling leniency here. Also I see your point with the luminosity thing although if nothing else it seems that Raphael definitely went to space so maybe the feat is still 7-C and therefore not a bad supporting/casual feat.

 

[Dust_Collector]

But is that not kind of an arbitrary reason to deny base charecters scaling to Power Stars in any capacity especially when alot of Mario's genuine anti feats go against even scaling as low as tier 8 but on the other hand most of the calcs for tier 7&6 are from feats that are done so casually that they don't seem to make higher scaling impossible? Especially when there are occasions where the Mario Base cast aren't portrayed as vastly weaker than Power Stars regardless of how inconsistent said portrayal of Power Stars is and the wiki has ratings like at most, possibly and likely to account for weird but not impossible scaling anyways.

I mean, a bunch of casual (Although honestly a decent chunk of them aren't actually casual) tier 7/6 feats doesn't really justify scaling to something hundreds of quadrillions of times higher than said casual feats, that's a huge leap. As an example we have a calc of Dark Bowser's feat at the end of Bowser's Inside Story plunging the planet into darkness that got to moon level but given that it was several thousand times higher than the baseline High 6-A ratings we were working with it during the High 6-A upgrade it wasn't used and is currently an outlier because of the gap being so big. The odd occasion of the base cast not being portrayed as vastly weaker is pretty heavily outnumbered by the amount of feats they perform or struggle with feats way below what the Stars can do which makes even a possibly rating a bit too far fetched.

Last is it not a bit odd for the beings buffed by Power Stars that base form characters beat to be treated as being quadrillions of times weaker than their power source yet for some reason Mario & others have a High 4-C key for when they are using Power Stars?

Eh, I don't think so. Base cast knowing how to harness the full power of Power Stars doesn't mean the Wiggler from Tiny Huge Island knows how to do the same when he was empowered by one.

Could that be good enough grounds for a possibly rating or would that get rejected.

Would be rejected, Grand Star Bowser needed to have a reasoning for him scaling the way he currently does since just having a Grand Star wasn't deemed enough for even a possibly rating, or to use a non Mario example we have Princess Zelda containing the complete Triforce within her but we don't give her a possibly rating for even scaling to a single piece of it let alone the full thing.

Intresting. Although I'm a Sonic scaler and Sonic as a series has it's own share of hilariously bad anti feats (albiet alot of them are from the IDW comics which are only considered secondary canon) so I don't see why consistency is so expected of Mario in particular when it looks like Mario feats seem so all over the place that getting "consistency" from any scaling at all whether it be 9-A,  High 6-A, or  Low 2-C just doesn't look pheasable as an outsider looking in.

It's not expected from Mario in particular every verse is expected to have consistency, it's likely a lot of verses on the wiki right now shouldn't be as high as they should be (Personally I find Raymans 4-B rating kinda sus) and should have a closer look put on them.

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

any interesting dialogues you noticed?

 

[Hagane_no_Saiyajin]

any interesting dialogues you noticed?

I just more posted this here for reference purposes

 

[ZespeonGalaxy]

since ice flower / pow block completely kill dry bones. And dry bones already has mid high regen. This clearly means Mario or Luigi have mid high regen negation no?

 

[Dust_Collector]

Going back to my Bowser sandbox, does anyone have the statement or feat we use to justify Grand Star Bowser being 4-A, possibly 3-C? There's nothing linked to it on his current profile, nor anything linked on the Power Star / Grand Star profile that says it made the world 6 black hole.

 

[JPTheGamer]

Going back to my Bowser sandbox, does anyone have the statement or feat we use to justify Grand Star Bowser being 4-A, possibly 3-C? There's nothing linked to it on his current profile, nor anything linked on the Power Star / Grand Star profile that says it made the world 6 black hole.

Right here https://vsbattles.com/threads/super-galaxy-bros-return-of-the-grand-stars.177432/

 

[Dust_Collector]

I don't wanna look through 7 pages to find what we're using to link on the profile for the justification, and I'm sure anyone looking at the profile would wanna either, could you pull up the comment where the proof was posted if you don't mind so I can directly link to it for the profile (When I make a CRT for it in 10 years)

 

[JPTheGamer]

I don't wanna look through 7 pages to find what we're using to link on the profile for the justification, and I'm sure anyone looking at the profile would wanna either, could you pull up the comment where the proof was posted if you don't mind so I can directly link to it for the profile (When I make a CRT for it in 10 years)

It starts from here to the end of the 6th page.

 

[Dust_Collector]

It starts from here to the end of the 6th page.

Two things, again not great for people looking at the profile to have to scroll through a page of a CRT. And also... where's the statement or concrete proof we're using for the Grand Star making that black hole because it looks mostly like "yeah I think he made that black hole based on the vibes tbh" instead of anything explictly saying he made it. It looks like at best the 4-A tier we currently have would be a possibly rating instead of a concrete one based on what I'm seeing from that thread.

Also unrelated to the above, would everyone be fine if I removed the Dark Bowser storm feat from the calculations section on the verse page? For some reason it's listed as a support feat despite it being deemed an outlier because it was moon level, we even had a thread not too long ago where someone was confused why the profiles weren't 5-C because the calc was listed as a support feat.

 

[Ghengiroo115]

Also unrelated to the above, would everyone be fine if I removed the Dark Bowser storm feat from the calculations section on the verse page? For some reason it's listed as a support feat despite it being deemed an outlier because it was moon level, we even had a thread not too long ago where someone was confused why the profiles weren't 5-C because the calc was listed as a support feat.

Iirc that feat was added to the verse page just to index it, which imo is a good idea and it should stay. If it’s being described as a “supporting feat” though, then maybe just changing it to “outlier feats” or something like that would work?

As an aside, Dark Bowser’s page should probably have the storm feat removed from his AP, as it’s not only treated as an outlier but also currently links to a different calc.

 

[Dust_Collector]

Iirc that feat was added to the verse page just to index it, which imo is a good idea and it should stay. If it’s being described as a “supporting feat” though, then maybe just changing it to “outlier feats” or something like that would work?

I think be weird to have a section for calcs we don't use. I think we could index the calc via linking to it via a note/explanation on Dark Bowser's page that also explains why we don't use it (It's a big story / lore feat the game builds up to so we should add something on his profile explaining why we don't scale anyone to it so avoid people being confused). Still means the calc can be indexed in some way if we really wanna keep it indexed, but without adding outlier calcs onto the main page.

As an aside, Dark Bowser’s page should probably have the storm feat removed from his AP, as it’s not only treated as an outlier but also currently links to a different calc.

Yeah that page needs a rework in general, AStrangeverse is currently working on that but until that's done we should remove that from the current profiles AP section.